Slovakia passes law that denies official recognition to Islam

[alhoon]

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/
The gist: TA new law, passed by 2/3 majority says that a religion must have at least 50,000 members to qualify for state recognition in Slovakia. This blocks Islam as an officially recognized religion, and blocks Islam from receiving any state subsidies for its schools.

Despite sensationalist headline, Slovakia hasn't banned Islam. They just don't recognize any religion as a candidate for state subsidies unless it has 50K members. There are according to the last census just 2000 muslims in Slovacia, so a law that says "unless there's significant presence in the country, no money for you" is not too bad IMO*.

However, then we have this:
"The prime minister, Robert Fico, said in May that "Islam has no place" in Slovakia." and "Slovak National Party Chairman Andrej Danko said, "Islamization starts with a kebab and it's already under way in Bratislava -- let's realize what we can face in 5 to 10 years. We must do everything we can so that no mosque is built in the future."

That's kinda... you know. It makes me think that the motive behind the vote was not just common sense of "just 2000 people = no government money for you" but a knee jerk reaction from people to afraid of the "power" of these 2000 muslims to change the culture.



* And then we come to this: ~1% Orthodox in a country of 5.4M. We're close to the 50K number! First, I believe the "Greek Catholics" are less and Orthodox Christians are more and the stats are wrong, meddled with. Second, Come on! They're next to some important Orthodox bastions. They should have Orthodox Christianity as a recognized religion, regardless of numbers! There are visitors from Orthodox countries working or passing through Slovacia and we want our places of worship there!

[Basil II the B.S]

That's just dumb.

[Prodromos]

Exceptions should be made for Orthodox people and other religions. Islam should be banned entirely. It is not a regular religion with the goal of making sense of the material and spiritual worlds. It is a totalitarian political ideology with the goal of taking over the world. It really does have no place in any Western country.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

Exceptions should be made for Orthodox people and other religions. Islam should be banned entirely. It is not a regular religion with the goal of making sense of the material and spiritual worlds. It is a totalitarian political ideology with the goal of taking over the world. It really does have no place in any Western country.

So freedom of religion except for religions you dislike?

[Phier]

So freedom of religion except for religions you dislike?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scient...tus_by_country

Its pretty common.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scient...tus_by_country

Its pretty common.

Well I didn't say Pyramid Schemes. It's a fair point, I grant, but rather different. Cults and religions, whilst related, are possible to separate. We're getting into murky waters here, but if you ban Islam under the same logic you ban Scientology, then Christianity is next under the hammer.

[Von Pressburg]

Well well our politicians found just another scapegoat. Ten years ago it was Hungarians, then Roma, now Muslims. The small muslim community in Slovakia is generally well asimilated and is trying to get official recognition for years, always obstructed by new regulations. They werent even allowed to build a single mosque in Slovakia. Kinda pathetic really.

Exceptions should be made for Orthodox people and other religions. Islam should be banned entirely. It is not a regular religion with the goal of making sense of the material and spiritual worlds. It is a totalitarian political ideology with the goal of taking over the world. It really does have no place in any Western country.

Well you might at least try to see the difference between Islam (religion) and various forms of Islamism (ideology), of which some radical branches are indeed totalitarian in nature. But your generalisation of 1.6 bn Muslims as fanatics who have no place in the West is really not in touch with reality. And you should really source the claim that Islam is not a regular religion. Like really.

[Prodromos]

Well well our politicians found just another scapegoat. Ten years ago it was Hungarians, then Roma, now Muslims. The small muslim community in Slovakia is generally well asimilated and is trying to get official recognition for years, always obstructed by new regulations. They werent even allowed to build a single mosque in Slovakia. Kinda pathetic really.



Well you might at least try to see the difference between Islam (religion) and various forms of Islamism (ideology), of which some radical branches are indeed totalitarian in nature. But your generalisation of 1.6 bn Muslims as fanatics who have no place in the West is really not in touch with reality. And you should really source the claim that Islam is not a regular religion. Like really.

Islam is inherently Islamist. It is not possible to divorce the political laws from the personal/religious beliefs. This is considered innovation, blasphemy and apostasy, punishable by death according to Islamic law. If you are a "moderate" Muslim (i.e. religious not political), you're more likely to be targeted by an Islamist than by an infidel. Most laws in sharia are aimed at Muslims.

[Von Pressburg]

Islam is inherently Islamist. It is not possible to divorce the political laws from the personal/religious beliefs. This is considered innovation, blasphemy and apostasy, punishable by death according to Islamic law. If you are a "moderate" Muslim (i.e. religious not political), you're more likely to be targeted by an Islamist than by an infidel. Most laws in sharia are aimed at Muslims.

That is one piece of... Most muslim countries have law codes and constitutions lthat are to an extent based on secular law than on Sharia and some are entirely secular. And in many places, laws based on Sharia and local tradition are under presurre (like Morocco). These countries have also big differences between urban and rural populations. Even the countries where Islam is the source of the law differ greatly in their intepretation (like attitude to alcohol in Saudi Arabia vs. Emirates). The fact is that attitudes toward Islam as basis of laws differ among Muslims and that is represented by the split in their countries between Islamist parties and secular parties (for ex. Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia).

Of course it does. What mainstream Christian or Jewish practices compare to the mainstream application of Islamic law? Where are the churches, polls and governments that support executing blasphemers, apostates, adulterers? Where are the violent riots, millions of protesters, and national boycotts of countries home to cartoonists mocking Christianity?








There's also other polls on women's rights, etc., but I think you get the point. Theocracy and holy war really is one area that could use a bit more religious diversity.

Well if anything you should try to actually look at the polls you posted. They clearly show that Muslims differ in their support of Islamist laws. Usually the countries with more historic and cultural contact with secularism favour Islamism less. That means that attitudes of Turkish, Lebanese, Albanian, Bosnian, central Asian Muslims have changed after contact with secularism. Which clearly defies your presumption that Islam and Muslims are inherently pro-Islamist.

I mean, what do you even propose Legend? Expell all Muslims from EU? Force conversion? Ban any public show of Islam?

If the Slovaks want to hedge against Muslim-induced-problems, the best option would be to imitate Romanian government: if the teachers, the preachers, the textbooks and the running costs are paid for by the government, the government has a say on what flavor of Islam is practiced. If the Slovak government removes itself from the key factors any religion needs (funding, leadership and clarification of the dogma), somebody else would take care of those things. Somebody like say, the Saudi government.

And I believe this is how it should be done. Most radicalisation in Europe comes through Salafi preachers financed by Saudi Arabia.

[sumskilz]

Well if anything you should try to actually look at the polls you posted.

It does appear that Muslims are more secular in countries in which Islamism has been crushed out of them by authoritarian means.

[Kyriakos]

Most of the former Austria-Hungary countries seem to be pretty far-right tbh...
"Islamization starts with a kebab" is braindead stupid quote

[Mithradates]

Look at the bright side, Marian was pushing for the 250k minimum members, which would have left only Chatolicism.

...we want our places of worship there!

We both know this is not about the Orthodoxs...

[Roma_Victrix]

Look at the bright side, Marian was pushing for the 250k minimum members, which would have left only Chatolicism.



We both know this is not about the Orthodoxs...

All this talk of Islam and kebabs is really just a hidden concerted effort by Slovakia to undermine the Orthodox Christians.
April 1182, MASSACRE OF THE LATINS! NEVER FORGET!

Seriously, though, why mention kebabs at all? It's a food item, one that is enjoyed by a wider range of people than Muslims. It's like arguing that burritos are the means by which illegal immigrants from Mexico get a foot in the door.

The rhetoric is obviously silly, and while I disagree with the legislation in terms of the minimum cap of followers for any particular religion, it's not an insane piece of legislation. You could make an argument that 50,000 people is a reasonable amount before the government starts offering subsidies. Of course, the legislation is obviously targeting Islam, but that's for Slovakia to sort out. Right now I'm busy being Murican, with Murican concerns. I could care less if Switzerland is banning minarets or not, or if France has outlawed the hijab. That's for them Frenchies and Swiss to figure out.

[Prodromos]

So freedom of religion except for religions you dislike?

Islam is more of a political ideology than a religion. No sane country wants to end up like the Middle East and North Africa. Those regions were Christian once and with less than 2000 Muslims too.

Seriously, though, why mention kebabs at all? It's a food item, one that is enjoyed by a wider range of people than Muslims. It's like arguing that burritos are the means by which illegal immigrants from Mexico get a foot in the door.

I believe it was a reference to Islamic neighborhoods in general. A few kebab shops, a couple of apartment complexes, a mosque and a little madrassa, and before you know it, no-go zone. Some cities in Europe look more similar to Karachi than to an average European city.

[Napoleonic Bonapartism]

Islam is more of a political ideology than a religion. No sane country wants to end up like the Middle East and North Africa. Those regions were Christian once and with less than 2000 Muslims too.

Name one religion that could not be construed as a political ideology, and changing the sentence from "banning a religion" to "banning a political ideology" doesn't make it much better. Africa, South America, North America - all once had less than 2000 Christians too, I fail to see your point here.

I believe it was a reference to Islamic neighborhoods in general. A few kebab shops, a couple of apartment complexes, a mosque and a little madrassa, and before you know it, no-go zone. Some cities in Europe look more similar to Karachi than to an average European city.

Oh come on - where? All these claims about "no-go zones" were said about Britain, as an inhabitant of London I can tell you it's nonsense.

[Prodromos]

Name one religion that could not be construed as a political ideology, and changing the sentence from "banning a religion" to "banning a political ideology" doesn't make it much better. Africa, South America, North America - all once had less than 2000 Christians too, I fail to see your point here.

Christianity is fairly secular. It is in compliance with, and arguably the source of, the idea of "live and let live." Islam's political aspects OTOH are undivorcable from the alleged religious aspects. Muslims are strictly commanded to impose Islam on the rest of the world. And surveys show most Muslims in Europe support sharia law. For instance, opinion polls show a majority of British Muslims want homosexuality to be made illegal.

Oh come on - where? All these claims about "no-go zones" were said about Britain, as an inhabitant of London I can tell you it's nonsense.

A no-go zone is an area that is drastically different from the rest of the country, and where you can reasonably expect to have an unpleasant experience when visiting it. There are many no-go zones in Europe. They are quite widely considered hotbeds of trouble, crime and "radicalization." What is the reason for denying this? There are no-go zones in almost every country.

[Arminur]

Name one religion that could not be construed as a political ideology, and changing the sentence from "banning a religion" to "banning a political ideology" doesn't make it much better. Africa, South America, North America - all once had less than 2000 Christians too, I fail to see your point here.



Oh come on - where? All these claims about "no-go zones" were said about Britain, as an inhabitant of London I can tell you it's nonsense.

Slovakia is a sovereign state and has the right to decide on what should and shouldn't be available in their society, simple as that. They see Islam as a harmful set of ideas that could pose an imminent threat to their society and way of life, we should respect that.

[alhoon]

Christianity is fairly secular.

Orthodox Christianity is strictly secular. Orthodox church likes to meddle, but our religion is strictly "Religion outside of science or politics" as it was declared in the Great Holy Synod. All Orthodox Christian churches have signed that (including the Russian patriarch and the Greek archbishop that have a notorious pro-politics games stance).

IMO no religion should receive state subsidies.

That's also fair, if you want to go that way. Give them subsidies and tax-protection based on charity and charity alone. I disagree with churches being tax-exempt, except from property tax for the actual temples, since many of them are monuments and all are places of worship. By why should a Restaurant partially owed by the church be tax exempt?! Or the Bishop's house? Or the money the Belgian monasteries make from beer?

The rhetoric is obviously silly, and while I disagree with the legislation in terms of the minimum cap of followers for any particular religion, it's not an insane piece of legislation. You could make an argument that 50,000 people is a reasonable amount before the government starts offering subsidies.

I would agree with that, but the permanent visa \ long-term employment visa people should factor in. And I would say 35000 people. That makes more sense (since Orthodox are at the precipe with just 55K people).
Deny the Orthodox Christians of Slovakia the subsidies and they would have to seek support from Romanian or Russian Patriarchates, increasing the influence of foreign countries there.

[Mithradates]

FYI

kebabs = lingo for muslims

remove kebab = ethnic cleansing of muslims

[Roma_Victrix]

FYI

kebabs = lingo for muslims

remove kebab = ethnic cleansing of muslims

Well that was condescending. I'm well aware of the meme. That might have been what the PM Robert Fico was referencing, but it sounds like he is literally talking about the food item, not the meme about the food item. Saying "Islamization starts with a kebab" almost makes it sound as if he wants to ban kebab restaurants.