Fidel Castro is dead at age 90

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Raul is 85, when is he going to kick the bucket?
Anyway I'm too busy laughing at Convertible Peso to mourn.

[Causeless]

Complicated question, but it’s not because our healthcare is expensive. U.S.A. is a global leader in scientific research in general, not just medical. We have the highest number of medical research facilities, and by far the highest amount of government spending on research and development.

So claiming that we pay “high drug prices” to subsidize the rest of the World is nonsense. We pay high prices because we don’t have single-payer that can fight the pharmaceutical companies on these prices. Pharmaceutical companies have a profit margin averaging something like 20%. That’s retarded, especially when you consider that a disproportionate amount of their budget goes towards marketing and sales

I largely agree with many of your points, but I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here.

Although the U.S.A may be, by the numbers, a global leader in scientific research, really they are madly, madly inefficient. Big pharma practically just tests random combinations of drugs over and over again in expensive studies without much rhythm or reason, hoping to hit some jackpot eventually.

Most big medical discoveries are made by small startups, because they usually have interesting ideas and are started by scientists, not businessmen. Of course, for this exact same reason, the vast majority of medical startups either make it big and are sold for a lot of money if their discovery works, or they collapse if it doesn't. Any medical startup that lasts more than 5 years without either collapsing or being sold is immensely rare.

The real winners are the companies doing the medical testing, i.e testing the potency and toxicity of a drug. They get their money whether the drug works or not.

[caratacus]

Absolutely wrong. That wasn't Saddam at all. These plans were put in place by bureaucrats during the reign of Faisal II and implemented under Ahmed Hassan Al Bakr starting in 1968 and ending 1979. Saddam came to power in late 1979 and since then it has been non-stop war, more wars, sanctions, more sanctions, collapse and fragmentation of the country in every single aspect. In fact, not only did he manage to stop expanding these programs but he actually defunded them by 1982 to fund his pathetic and ill-informed war against Iran and then the economy collapsed under the weight of the debts accumulated by 1989 when the creditors demanded their debts back.

Saddam was a colossal failure in every aspect imaginable (except maintaining rule). He and Fidel, however, were both charismatic, stubborn and famous for barking speeches detached from reality. Even though Fidel is smarter and actually had *some* achievements, both had egos that cost their people dearly.

The coup of 1968, the 17 July Revolution, brought the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party to power in Iraq. al-Bakr masterminded it, but Saddam and Salah Omar al-Ali led the coup on the ground. Sadam was extremely prominant in the regime, he didn't suddenly appear in 1979. In fact Al-Bakr appointed Saddam Hussein as Vice President upon attaining power in 1968.

[Macunaíma]

May he rest in peace. One of the greatest latin americans in history.

When your enemies celebrate your death at that late age, after failing to take your life for decades, is because you won.

[Platon]

On the communism vs capitalism debate:

Like most things in life, this isn't black & white. Obviously a planned economy is lunacy for a large country. It's impossible to micromanage a system consisting of millions of people, and so you need the free market...

Actually, it's a little bit more complicated than that..

All major western economies are very much planned. The heads of the big corporations are dictating the policies of the governments (left or right). And inside all those corps, there is a small elite who decides everything.
And when 'S hits the fan' (like it did in 2008) they all get together and sit around the table. The central bank, backed by the taxpayer, bails out everybody! That is as far away from a free market capitalist system you can get.
If the bailout didn't happen, then everyone would experience the true nature of capitalism and what happens when the system breaks down. (It's not over yet though, just delayed a bit)

Planned economy is not only far from lunacy, it is actually the only way a modern civilized country can function. Fact is, the more planned it is with all the rules and regulations, the better it functions. Sad but true!


Back to Fidel. What do I feel about him? The same way a communist like me felt about Stalin - I ing love him

RIP commandante

[Love Mountain]

I largely agree with many of your points, but I'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here.

Although the U.S.A may be, by the numbers, a global leader in scientific research, really they are madly, madly inefficient. Big pharma practically just tests random combinations of drugs over and over again in expensive studies without much rhythm or reason, hoping to hit some jackpot eventually.

Most big medical discoveries are made by small startups, because they usually have interesting ideas and are started by scientists, not businessmen. Of course, for this exact same reason, the vast majority of medical startups either make it big and are sold for a lot of money if their discovery works, or they collapse if it doesn't. Any medical startup that lasts more than 5 years without either collapsing or being sold is immensely rare.

The real winners are the companies doing the medical testing, i.e testing the potency and toxicity of a drug. They get their money whether the drug works or not.

And that's where I say I have no damn idea. My education has been largely focused on Economics, and even there I'm more focused on macro-trends. I'm an analyst by profession, but that's for a large telecom giant so I really don't know much about the nuances of other industries, if someone wants to educate me by all means, I find the whole topic of healthcare fascinating and I'm actually grateful for thsese last few years because they've produced a ton of literature on the topic.

[Harith]

The coup of 1968, the 17 July Revolution, brought the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party to power in Iraq. al-Bakr masterminded it, but Saddam and Salah Omar al-Ali led the coup on the ground. Sadam was extremely prominant in the regime, he didn't suddenly appear in 1979. In fact Al-Bakr appointed Saddam Hussein as Vice President upon attaining power in 1968.

Sure, but he had nothing to do with the successful social programs in Iraq.

[caratacus]

Sure, but he had nothing to do with the successful social programs in Iraq.

What are some of Saddam Hussein's positive achievements and progressive contributions to Iraq and the Arab World?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-...the-Arab-World

So yes, he did have some positive developments, much like Castro, although not to the same extent perhaps. Still doesn't change the fact that they were both dictators over their people using methods of bloody repression though.

[Heathen Hammer]

Aaand out liberal manchild Prime Minister called him a "great leader". Although I do think that originally Cuban revolution was somewhat justified, when you see self-proclaimed "liberals" praising a socialist dictator you can't help but wonder...

[mrmouth]

When your enemies celebrate your death at that late age, after failing to take your life for decades, is because you won.

Depressing to watch Venezuela currently 'win'. Castro's ultimate legacy will be is the best example of what the purest form of communism looked like.


The best academic estimates put the direct death toll under Castro at about 100,000. Highly subjective, though. You are talking about tens of thousands of undocumented cases of people just disappearing, after finding themselves at odds with their government. So at very least, the relatives are owed something similar to what occurred in Iraq after Saddam was removed, in an investigation that ultimately just leads to a high probability of government involvement in that person's disappearance.

Of course dissidents put that number much higher. Sometimes ten-times as high. That doesn't seem logical even if you include the number of people who drowned.

Whatever the case, it's illogical to celebrate the guy.

[ABH2]

I'm not even sure what I'm allowed to respond to at this stage. I'll send one final PM response to the people I was arguing with and be done with it.

But it's good to know that the people who celebrated Hitler's death were proving that he had really won the whole world war thing.

That said the US obsession with Cuba is out of all proportion with its importance. I guess the mafia's hurt feelings (I mean they just wanted a safe space for casinos and girls) and the fact that Cuba was the spot Khrushchev picked to respond to Kennedy's bizarre nuclear escalation in Turkey make it a locus of shame and embarrassment for the US, so its hard for Yanks to respond rationally to some tin pot dictator who wasn't 100% evil dying.

The focus on Batista is kind of moronic. He's been transformed from typical third world strongman type with the usual corruption and civil rights issues into Hitler himself. The support he received from America has been overstated, and the opposition Castro faced when he overthrew him along with it. The American public largely viewed Castro's guerilla war as a curiosity and somewhat romantic. It was not until Castro made it clear that he was going Marxist and that he decided to steal American assets that the American people turned on him.

A fifth of all Cubans no longer live in Cuba. It's hard to think of a bigger indictment of a ruler than that. A fifth of his people fled rather than live under his rule. Many more were simply slaughtered.

Most Americans did not and do not care about Cuba. The mob operated in Cuba along with various corporations. The American government also implemented an arms embargo on Batista during Castro's revolt and refused to get involved. Certainly that was to Castro's benefit. But you know what has allowed Castro to maintain power for so long, besides the fact that he has an outlet in the US for the discontented? The American boogieman and appeals to nationalism.

I'd personally much rather live under a Batista than a Castro, and my thoughts can mostly be summed up with the following:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

Castro makes Pinochet look like a saint, frankly. But I wouldn't hear most of the people here ever say a kind word about Pinochet. That guy actually gave up power. He kept his word. You know, the exact opposite of Castro. He left his country better off than he found it, and it remains the wealthiest nation in Latin America with leftwing governments in power since too scared to actually reverse many of his policies. It's ironic that the left curses America for supporting Pinochet, but condemns it for its opposition to Castro.

Even the two things people can think to praise about Castro's policies, they are forced to rely on statistics provided by Cuba itself. So we are sitting here in awe of a self-reported 99% literacy rate while North Korea has a 100% literacy rate by the same metrics. And regardless of how many people can read, they sure aren't free to read what they want.

Castro's death was too painless. That's the only shame of all this. It's also 60 years too late.

[Cyclops]

But it's good to know that the people who celebrated Hitler's death were proving that he had really won the whole world war thing.

Godwin's Law is usually a sign someone has conceded. In any case you've misunderstood: the original claim is when a person dies of old age after may attempts to kill them then they have won: Hitler suicided because everyone in the free World and the Communist World was queuing up to shoot him.

The focus on Batista is kind of moronic. He's been transformed from typical third world strongman type with the usual corruption and civil rights issues into Hitler himself. The support he received from America has been overstated, and the opposition Castro faced when he overthrew him along with it. The American public largely viewed Castro's guerilla war as a curiosity and somewhat romantic. It was not until Castro made it clear that he was going Marxist and that he decided to steal American assets that the American people turned on him.

Batista was the US choice for Cuba. I have no doubt most US citizens would like the focus elsewhere because of the deep shame supporting such a beast involves.

A fifth of all Cubans no longer live in Cuba. It's hard to think of a bigger indictment of a ruler than that. A fifth of his people fled rather than live under his rule.

Yep civil wars are terrible, an its unjust that ordinary people suffer. However its ingenuous to say all the Cubans in the US are there to escape Castro's regime, the US is an attractive destination for many Latin Americans, more especially Cubans as the US has embargoed their country.

Many more were simply slaughtered.

Many more than a fifth of Cubans were slaughtered? I don't think you mean that.

Most Americans did not and do not care about Cuba. The mob operated in Cuba along with various corporations. The American government also implemented an arms embargo on Batista during Castro's revolt and refused to get involved. Certainly that was to Castro's benefit. But you know what has allowed Castro to maintain power for so long, besides the fact that he has an outlet in the US for the discontented? The American boogieman and appeals to nationalism.

Hang on you said the "American people " hated Castro for stealing "American property", now no one cares? The US supported at least one invasion and a fairly heavy embargo.

I'd personally much rather live under a Batista than a Castro, and my thoughts can mostly be summed up with the following:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

Fluff. In the real world more Cubans seem to prefer Castro to Batista because he's held power for decades longer with US opposition.

Castro makes Pinochet look like a saint, frankly. But I wouldn't hear most of the people here ever say a kind word about Pinochet. That guy actually gave up power. He kept his word. You know, the exact opposite of Castro. He left his country better off than he found it, and it remains the wealthiest nation in Latin America with leftwing governments in power since too scared to actually reverse many of his policies. It's ironic that the left curses America for supporting Pinochet, but condemns it for its opposition to Castro.

Pinochet was murdering scum but credit where it is due: he was removed from power peacefully. Castro was not given that option, it was power or a violent death. maybe Raul will be given the option of an honourable exit? The rule of one family is an abomination politically.

Even the two things people can think to praise about Castro's policies, they are forced to rely on statistics provided by Cuba itself. So we are sitting here in awe of a self-reported 99% literacy rate while North Korea has a 100% literacy rate by the same metrics. And regardless of how many people can read, they sure aren't free to read what they want.

Cuban health is rightly viewed as a well run ship, considering he's a murdering dictator.

Castro's death was too painless. That's the only shame of all this. It's also 60 years too late.

...because US backed Cuban dictators are sooooo much nicer.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I wonder if George Galloway is crying right now.

[Roma_Victrix]

Regardless of the ghosts of the past, including Batista (who remains only as a bitter memory, not an open wound), what does Castro's death mean for US-Cuban relations going forward? Is this going to dampen or embolden Donald Trump's approach to dealing with Cuba when he is sworn into office in January? Perhaps if Raul Castro would just allow a Trump hotel in Havana, everything could be smoothed over.

[Causeless]

A fifth of all Cubans no longer live in Cuba. It's hard to think of a bigger indictment of a ruler than that. A fifth of his people fled rather than live under his rule. Many more were simply slaughtered.

That is a good point, and on many levels I agree. I just think generally speaking, Fidel's idea of what was best for the people is quite unlike what many think, for right or for wrong. Generally speaking, Castro's policies were very beneficial for the poor but also very poor for the rich and successful - as well as intellectuals, who certainly dislike any lack of freedom.

You also must remember that at the time that the governmental policies were initially being formed that the U.S were spewing vast amounts of propaganda, a large portion of which were outright lies to discredit the July 26th Movement. The government initially allowed freedom of speech until it was realized that this was perhaps the greatest threat to Cuba considering they were next door to the most powerful propaganda machine in the world. This is especially clear when you realize that the Guatemala coup (another classic case of the U.S replacing democratically elected leaders with dictators merely to avoid any sort of socialism), a coup that Che was in the midst of, was successful almost purely due to the U.S propaganda machine.

I'd also like to point out that Cubans which speak out against the Cuban government usually get very, very minor sentences, nowhere near as bad as China. If you look at movements such as Ladies In White, their members and leaders somehow manage to constantly be publicly protesting, and any time they spend detained lasts about a week at most before they are at it again. Of course, the U.S propaganda machine paints Cuba as being worse than the Chinese here...

When you look at any real long-term imprisonment of Cubans for political purposes, they mostly seem to all have rather questionable ties to the U.S government... I'd consider imprisoning people who are working with a foreign government to discredit yours nothing short of treason, and certainly the U.S is far, far more harsh to people they decide to be designated as traitors than Cuba is here.

Castro's death was too painless. That's the only shame of all this. It's also 60 years too late.

Nobody deserves a painful death. Frankly I wouldn't wish that even upon Hitler. An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, yada yada yada...

Although clearly we have some differences in opinion here considering that the U.S deems it acceptable to spend millions on creating l̶i̶t̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶t̶o̶r̶t̶u̶r̶e̶ advanced detainment camps where they illegally imprison and psychologically and physically abuse children accused of terrorism.

The U.S propaganda machine is so great that it can make people overlook the irony that the U.S runs a camp on Cuban soil which does all the things they (frankly largely illegitimately) accuse the Cuban government of doing...

[nhinhonhinho]

Meanwhile Vietnam are going to give Fidel a full State Funeral in 4/12. It's something I was never hear of, anyway the state leader once who risked his life on the frontline along Vietnamese people deserve respect from Vietnamese



Fidel Castro visiting Quang Tri 1973 during the particularly bitter fighting for the province (and for the Paris Peace Accords)

It was there he said: "Cuban people will shed blood for Vietnamese people if necessary"

Meanwhile
Venezuela declared state funeral for 3 days
North Korea declared state funeral for 3 days
Nicaragua declared state funeral for 9 days
Algeria declared state funeral for 8 days

And more

As usual the once who received so much respect from the poor, the weak, the oppressed would be condemn as the dictator and bloodthirsty killer in the eyes of the strong

[Akrotatos]

Meanwhile
Venezuela declared state funeral for 3 days Oppressive leftist regime whose people are currently starving
North Korea declared state funeral for 3 days Seriously?
Nicaragua declared state funeral for 9 days Where Ortega and his party are trying to become another Venezuela (though to be honest, this is where my knowledge about Nicaragua ends)
Algeria declared state funeral for 8 days Yet another banana republic where the president routinely gets elected by 80% and continues to amend the constitution to keep getting "elected"

And more

As usual the once who received so much respect from the poor, the weak, the oppressed would be condemn as the dictator and bloodthirsty killer in the eyes of the strong

Seriously dude?

Btw, you forgot to mention the retard that is Greece's prime minister who will go for 7 days to Cuba to attend the funeral. While we are trying to finish negotiations with IMF and EU.

[Diocle]

Seriously dude?

Btw, you forgot to mention the retard that is Greece's prime minister who will go for 7 days to Cuba to attend the funeral. While we are trying to finish negotiations with IMF and EU.

Think that I thought we Italians had the Guinness of retarded Prime Ministers!

Raul is 85, when is he going to kick the bucket?

So, does this mean we have the legitimate hope that also baby Raul may leave us in a very short time?

[caratacus]

Meanwhile Vietnam are going to give Fidel a full State Funeral in 4/12. It's something I was never hear of, anyway the state leader once who risked his life on the frontline along Vietnamese people deserve respect from Vietnamese.

As usual the once who received so much respect from the poor, the weak, the oppressed would be condemn as the dictator and bloodthirsty killer in the eyes of the strong

Doesn't surprise me that he offered to fight in Vietnam. This is a leader who's only mandate to rule in the name of the people was from the barrel of a gun. A useful tool to overthrow a corrupt government, not so useful as a form of political representation.

[Ludicus]

Regardless of the ghosts of the past, including Batista (who remains only as a bitter memory, not an open wound), what does Castro's death mean for US-Cuban relations going forward? Is this going to dampen or embolden Donald Trump's approach to dealing with Cuba when he is sworn into office in January?

A pertinent question.
So, who is going to be the next Fulgencio Batista, Mr.Trump? US interest in Cuban democracy did not emerge until after the country had a communist government.

--------

He will meet with his buddy Generalíssimo Franco in the afterlife.

Not exactly. But...
Franco:"don't touch Cuba"
Fidel:"the gallego acted very well, caramba!"
--------
In the list of Franco's best friends was Batista,not Fidel, a communist. (Spanish Civil war rings a bell?)

La tumba de Batista, el dictador cubano al que derrocó Fidel Castro y ... (ABC Madrid)

Aunque donde encontró su verdadero refugio fue en España, al abrigo de Franco. Se compró una vivienda en Madrid y otra en Marbella, donde solía veranear, y donde la muerte le sorprendió...Su mandato, apoyado por Estados Unidos, se caracterizó por la corrupción a gran escala y la represión política.... La Cuba de Batista, conocida como «Las Vegas caribeña», ha quedado retratada por Francis Ford Coppola en el «El Padrino II» con sus prostíbulos, casinos y su estrecha relación con la mafia.

----------------
ABH2

But I wouldn't hear most of the people here ever say a kind word about Pinochet.

Most of the people here don't have anything good to say about Pinochet.
CIA loved him.
According to CIA, the psychopathic killer as "warm and "Mild-Mannered".."Pinochet is hard working and dedicated", "Pinochet is genuinely popular on Chile" "Pinochet can be warm and fatherly".

CIA Releases Files That Describe Ruthless Chilean Dictator Pinochet ...

Pinochet’s dictatorship institutionalized acts of domestic terrorism through murder and rape in at least 17 torture centers across the country.... all the CIA biographic reports from 1972-1976 here