Deteriorating situation for women in Turkey

**alhoon** · November 18, 2016, 07:46 PM

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38030182

The gist: A Turkish bill that could allow men engaging in sex with underage girls to avoid prosecution if they married the girl will be voted on soon, and could become Turkish law. Critics say as well as overlooking statutory rape (underage sex) it would legitimise child marriage. On top of that (the broader issue) is that violence against women has raised dramatically the past decade in Turkey. 40% of women report sexual or physical abuse and the murder rate of women increased by 1,400% between 2003 and 2010.

My opinion on the matter of underage marriage is... depends. From what I get the limit in Turkey for legal intercourse is 18. A 20-years old man having sex with a 17-years old woman, that he later marries is IMO doing nothing wrong. A 45 years old man having sex with a 14-years old and later marrying her to escape justice is a completely different situation.
From the same article:
" Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag said it could help couples who have engaged in consensual sex and want to marry."When a child is then born from this non-official union, the doctor warns the prosecutor and the man is sent to prison, putting the child and mother into financial difficulties,"
Well, as I said, it depends whether this man should be in jail.

I don't condone child marriage and I'm openly calling all those "loving families" in rural Greece, that the woman married the man at 14 or 15 years old illegal and think the man should be behind bars. Thankfully, I think it's illegal now.
However, I don't consider a 16-years old having sex with a 19 years old rape. That's not the same as 13 years old marrying 30 years old.

All in all about the "marry her and the under-age sex charges go away" has a simpler solution: Put the limit of underage sex at 16 instead of legalizing child marriage.

As far as the women's violence problems: Now, that got me stunned. The statistics are from BBC, which I consider a good source... but 1400%?!? That's 14 times more murders! It can't be right. Same with the 40% of abused (physically or sexually) women. That increase seems to high.

What I believe? Reporting of these incidents is more frequent along with a far lower increase, but still increase, in violence against women. And even one woman raped or killed is one too many.

EDIT: The controversial law was withdrawn!
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tur...&NewsCatID=339

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/22/eu...ild-rape-bill/

**Tureuki** · November 19, 2016, 01:02 AM

Its actually a one time procedure to free the jailed men with wife and children who did not use any kind of force. But its still perceived as justifying underage sex and rape so it got a huge reaction from the public, even from many akp voters, they had to repeatedly make statements to ease the public but they will possible remove it off.

Although the purpose of this law wasnt that, many islamic retards have been defending by saying islamic marriage age is 13. Thankfully not even most muslims here agree with that even though its real.

**alhoon** · November 19, 2016, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tureuki

Its actually a one time procedure to free the jailed men with wife and children who did not use any kind of force. But its still perceived as justifying underage sex and rape so it got a huge reaction from the public, even from many akp voters, they had to repeatedly make statements to ease the public but they will possible remove it off.

Although the purpose of this law wasnt that, many islamic retards have been defending by saying islamic marriage age is 13. Thankfully not even most muslims here agree with that even though its real.

Why don't they just move the age for consent to 16 to be done with this problem? Or at least make the penalties for having sex with 16-18 years old lesser than sex with 12-years olds?
To me, it seems a simpler solution that also doesn't require marriage.

**Harith** · November 19, 2016, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by alhoon

The gist: A Turkish bill that could allow men engaging in sex with underage girls to avoid prosecution if they married the girl will be voted on soon, and could become Turkish law.

Originally Posted by alhoon

Why don't they just move the age for consent to 16 to be done with this problem? Or at least make the penalties for having sex with 16-18 years old lesser than sex with 12-years olds?
To me, it seems a simpler solution that also doesn't require marriage.

Here's the thing. In eastern cultures, reputation and people's opinion are extremely important. So much so, that we have several contradictions in our society that do not make any sense what so ever.

How does it tie to the bill? Well, the family of the victim would be ashamed of the incident and the girl would never be able to marry because:

a) She lost her virginity
b) She's a rape victim and there's very, very, very strong social stigma around this

So, if the rapist marries the victim (both sides willingly in theory), then that would help the family "cover up" the shame brought to them and they would forgive him because:

a) They're daughter is married
b) The rapist "rectified" his mistake by marrying her.

So, as bizarre as this logic may seem, I suspect that there's support for it in rural Turkey. From what I understand (anecdotes and POV relayed by my parents), these bill tend to be geared towards rural areas that are more conservative and more prone to sexual violence/ scandals. While we may be shocked/ abhorred by such laws, they are seen as perfectly "practical solutions" to the problem.

**bigdaddy1204** · November 19, 2016, 08:33 AM

The situation for women in Turkey is the same as for all citizens: their rights have been systematically removed and abused by the fascist Erdogan 'government', which is really a collection of criminals that should be behind bars. The only solution for this and all Turkey's many other problems is for the people to rise up and overthrow the tyrant Erdogan and his corrupt henchmen. He is a liar, a thief, a charlatan, a warmonger, a lawbreaker, a criminal and a tin pot dictator. His 'regime' is nothing but a pack of lies. Down with Erdogan! And may the Turks be free.

**alhoon** · November 19, 2016, 07:01 PM

Reputation is very important in all regions. However, how one rectifies underage sex \ rape by... marriage?

And can someone tell me how much truth is in the "40% of Turkish women have endured sexual or physical abuse" statistic, that seems horrifying and the 1400% increase in murders of women, that actually seems like a typo adding two zeros there?

**Tureuki** · November 20, 2016, 01:27 AM

We largely overcome that "marry the rapist" thingy, Its still present especially at eastern regions and some remote rural areas but public in general disgraced it. This bill as I said does not cover rapists. It covers either the underage girls who married in their own or underage girls who were forced to marry by their parents(which is more common).

Nope its not a typo. There is indeed a increase in violence overall. I dont know if its about the AKP policies or we are simply getting crazier.

**Prodromos** · November 20, 2016, 01:39 AM

Are you sure it is due to an increase in violence, rather than simply improvement in crime counting or reporting or the like? 1400% seems too unbelievable. Then again it is Islam we're talking about...

**Tureuki** · November 20, 2016, 01:42 AM

Oh that too yes, reporting is greatly increased. Women were afraid before.

**alhoon** · November 21, 2016, 04:17 AM

x14 times more murders is insane. Still, x14 under-reporting 10 years ago is also insane. Are you sure it's not a typo?

**Odenat** · November 22, 2016, 02:39 AM

Well, that law is dead. Turkish PM just announced that they are taking back the law to commission and that they will change the parts of law that has been criticised. So, right now, if a 19 year old boy loves a 17 years old girl and if they sleep, the boy will go to jail again. That is stupid.

**Hazzard** · November 22, 2016, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by alhoon

x14 times more murders is insane. Still, x14 under-reporting 10 years ago is also insane. Are you sure it's not a typo?

I imagine they changed the methods of studying, perhaps they didn't survey a particular group that was more probe to domestic violence?

Originally Posted by Odenat

Well, that law is dead. Turkish PM just announced that they are taking back the law to commission and that they will change the parts of law that has been criticised. So, right now, if a 19 year old boy loves a 17 years old girl and if they sleep, the boy will go to jail again. That is stupid.

Just copy the Japanese, if I remember right if one party is under 18, then at most you can have a 4 year gap, or anything goes once they're both 18. I disagree with the details but think this is a good policy generally.

**Tureuki** · November 22, 2016, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Odenat

Well, that law is dead. Turkish PM just announced that they are taking back the law to commission and that they will change the parts of law that has been criticised. So, right now, if a 19 year old boy loves a 17 years old girl and if they sleep, the boy will go to jail again. That is stupid.

You dont go to jail for that. A lot of underage people have sex, they cant put cameras in your bedroom. You go to jail because you made it obvious to public. Surely the 19 years old dude and 17 years old girl can wait 1 more year to marry and make children.

There is no comparison between sex and marriage anyway. Sex is spontaneous, its normally doesnt effects your ongoing life or future. While marriage is a huge decision that effects your entire life, you bound yourself to a person.

**alhoon** · November 22, 2016, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Odenat

Well, that law is dead. Turkish PM just announced that they are taking back the law to commission and that they will change the parts of law that has been criticised. So, right now, if a 19 year old boy loves a 17 years old girl and if they sleep, the boy will go to jail again. That is stupid.

Can I have a source to put in the OP? Kinda important development.

**Odenat** · November 23, 2016, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by alhoon

Can I have a source to put in the OP? Kinda important development.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/22/eu...ild-rape-bill/

Originally Posted by Tureuki

You dont go to jail for that. A lot of underage people have sex, they cant put cameras in your bedroom. You go to jail because you made it obvious to public. Surely the 19 years old dude and 17 years old girl can wait 1 more year to marry and make children.

There is no comparison between sex and marriage anyway. Sex is spontaneous, its normally doesnt effects your ongoing life or future. While marriage is a huge decision that effects your entire life, you bound yourself to a person.

The boy go to jail because most of the time, the parents of the girl will go to police. You can not say to the young people "wait another year before sex" lol. If you don't punish underage sex, people will say that you are ok with child rape. If you punish underage sex, boys will go to jail. I think Turkey need to use something similar to Japan, as Hazzard wrote.

**Akrotatos** · November 23, 2016, 01:13 PM

Then Turkey should implement an age of consent rule aka if a 17 year old consent he/she can have sex with an adult.

**Dromikaites** · November 27, 2016, 03:28 PM

There was a similar law in communist Romania.

At the time the age of consent was 14, even though a person under 18 could only marry if the parents agreed.

To make the matters even more complicated, statutory rape was called "seduction" and it was a crime only if the adult had convinced the minor to have sex by promising to marry him/her. If no promise to marry had been made and the sex with a 14-18 yo was consensual, there was no "seduction" and therefore no statutory rape (since the age of consent was 14).

So why that law about not prosecuting men who had raped and them married women?

Because of the low age of consent combined with contraceptives being illegal (having children was a patriotic duty) resulted in many girls getting pregnant. And when the parents discovered they'll soon be grandparents, the first way out for the girl was "he raped me", whether that was actually true or not.

The Party wanted not only lots of children but children raised in two-parents socialist families (divorce was legal but frowned upon - divorced people generally had no hopes to advance in their careers), so the Party was telling to the happy father "comrade, you either marry the mother or you get 6 years for rape". The girl's family also wanted to avoid the shame of having raised a "whore", which meant most of the time the whole affair ended in marriage.

Since true rape wasn't considered dishonorable for the victim, the likelihood of a real rapist getting away with it was pretty slim. So just like in Turkey the law was actually meant to address the issue of underage consensual sex which ended up in pregnancy, no to get rapists out of jail.