WW2 war graves desecrated at sea

[IronBrig4]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...m_content=2043

Three Dutch cruisers (HNLMS De Ruyter, Java, and Kortenaer) sunk during the Battle of the Java Sea (1942) were recently discovered. Now the wrecks are gone. This comes with news that wrecks of the cruiser HMS Exeter and destroyers Encounter and Electra were scavenged as well. Some of these wrecks are protected war graves too.

The Indonesian government is feigning ignorance of course. What probably happened is a Chinese or Indian salvage company came by, bribed naval officials, and removed the wrecks. Then they took the wrecks to a breaking yard in Bangladesh, bribed more officials, and broke down the ships to the last bolt. And it's not just the ships sunk at Java Sea. USS Perch and HMAS Perth (both sunk days after the battle) were scavenged too. The HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse were partially scavenged off the Malayan peninsula. The Malaysian navy has also stopped more attempts by Vietnamese scavengers in the area. Freakin' Third World people. They're like army ants.

Now for the discussion part. What's the best way to curb illegal salvaging like this? You have the Third World coolies doing the dirty work, of course. But they often supply Chinese and Indian corporations who know full well what they're doing. Who do you go after?

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't really see how there is anything to be salvaged from WW2 ships that spent 7 decades on the ocean floor. I mean, if one is lucky, they could find some items of historical significance that by some miracle have not disintegrated or washed away.
But yeah, the only solution is to offer direct funding for maintaining these wrecks, or transporting them to US or the country of their origin.

[IronBrig4]

I don't really see how there is anything to be salvaged from WW2 ships that spent 7 decades on the ocean floor. I mean, if one is lucky, they could find some items of historical significance that by some miracle have not disintegrated or washed away.

The scavengers don't care about artifacts. They're after the steel and bronze. Bronze doesn't rust, even in seawater. China and India are in the middle of construction booms right now and they're paying top dollar for every scrap of metal. Destitute fishermen from Vietnam, the Philippines and Indonesia know where the wrecks are and figure it's easy money for them.

[Logios]

Stuff like that happens in europe too.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ers-royal-navy

[Phier]

The history buff in me is saddened, the sentimental patriot in me is angered, but the practical me says it was just rotting on the bottom of the ocean. Realistically I'd be fine if there was an agreement to return any remains to the nation of origin but the ships might as well have some value at this point.

[Cyclops]

The history buff in me is saddened, the sentimental patriot in me is angered, but the practical me says it was just rotting on the bottom of the ocean. Realistically I'd be fine if there was an agreement to return any remains to the nation of origin but the ships might as well have some value at this point.

Pretty much. Sad for the families of the dead.

[IronBrig4]

I get that. But the scavengers likely chucked out any remains they found. They're like amateur archaeologists from the 19th century who ransacked Egyptian tombs, threw out the mummies, and filched anything shiny.

[Nikitn]

Why would Indonesians or Malaysians have any respect for the very colonists who occupied and oppressed them for hundreds of years? I certainly can't blame them, but I guess you don't care considering you view them as "freaking 3rd world army ants".

[IrishBlood]

Why would Indonesians or Malaysians have any respect for the very colonists who occupied and oppressed them for hundreds of years? I certainly can't blame them, but I guess you don't care considering you view them as "freaking 3rd world army ants".

Yeah I agree with you on that. You really cannot blame them. The allies in WW2 were not liberating hero's for Indonesia or Vietnam, considering after the war the Dutch and French (supported heavily by the British and Americans) waged brutal wars of suppression in an attempt to crush the independence movements of those countries.

I would agree with Phier in that it would be a best case scenario for the remains to be repatriated to the nations they came from, but really those countries should have made an effort to do so themselves a long time ago. From an environmental perspective who knows how much damage those wrecks have done in terms of polluting the sea floor, so cleaning them up might actually be a good thing!

[Phier]

From an environmental perspective who knows how much damage those wrecks have done in terms of polluting the sea floor, so cleaning them up might actually be a good thing!

Probably just the opposite. I doubt their techniques were clean, and instead it would release pollutants which were locked away by accretions and buried under sand.

[IrishBlood]

Probably just the opposite. I doubt their techniques were clean, and instead it would release pollutants which were locked away by accretions and buried under sand.

Ah it'll settle down eventually. The sea can take it

[IronBrig4]

Yeah I agree with you on that. You really cannot blame them. The allies in WW2 were not liberating hero's for Indonesia or Vietnam, considering after the war the Dutch and French (supported heavily by the British and Americans) waged brutal wars of suppression in an attempt to crush the independence movements of those countries.

Hundreds of Indonesian-Dutch sailors were entombed in the ships too.

I would agree with Phier in that it would be a best case scenario for the remains to be repatriated to the nations they came from, but really those countries should have made an effort to do so themselves a long time ago. From an environmental perspective who knows how much damage those wrecks have done in terms of polluting the sea floor, so cleaning them up might actually be a good thing!

The entire ship is a grave and memorial. It's why the USS Arizona hasn't been broken up for scrap. And Phier is likely correct that the metal thieves were sloppy in breaking down the wrecks. These are the same people who blow themselves up scavenging live ordinance in Vietnamese jungles. I think there was a Darwin award for Vietnamese scavengers who tried to break down a 500-lb bomb with a sledgehammer.

This is all related to the larger trend of the global rural poor cashing in on Indian and Chinese demands. Both countries are in the middle of construction booms and are willing to pay anything for scrap metal, timber, and luxury goods. So you have the illegal Vietnamese and Indonesian salvors doing this to protected war graves. You also have:

Native Britons and Eastern European migrants stripping war memorials for metal. In the US, much of this is done by native-born meth tweakers. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...crimewave.html

Illegal logging of rainforest due to insatiable demand for logwood, ebony, and mahogany. http://wwf.panda.org/about_our_earth...legal_logging/

And poachers everywhere from Mozambique to Montana supplying ivory, skin, and organs useful for "traditional Chinese medicine." http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gered-animals/

That's why I describe these scavengers as army ants. Because they swarm in and pick everything clean. If you can come up with a better label I'm all ears.

[Gaidin]

I would agree with Phier in that it would be a best case scenario for the remains to be repatriated to the nations they came from, but really those countries should have made an effort to do so themselves a long time ago. From an environmental perspective who knows how much damage those wrecks have done in terms of polluting the sea floor, so cleaning them up might actually be a good thing!

To add to what Phier said, ships like this also often get turned into reefs over time depending on their location. But who knows.

[Stavroforos]

Ships that no one will ever see that were sunk decades ago disappear...and we care so much about them that we only discovered this years after the fact. Yeah, can't really say this sounds like something too important.

[IronBrig4]

Since those ships are war graves, they are protected. Scavenging them is not much different than looting WW1 cemeteries in Flanders for bronze plaques.

Again, this is more about Third World corruption directly encouraged by Chinese and Indian demand for scrap metal. It especially gets sticky when governments that own those graves won't confront the culprit governments. For example, the Australian government didn't object to Indonesians looting HMAS Perth due to diplomatic tensions. I was wondering why Australians should care about upsetting their Third World neighbor. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-1...vagers/5156320

It's nevertheless tough to stop this sort of thing. Arresting the semi-literate Vietnamese salvors is useless because they will either be back at it in a week or replaced by another salvage crew. These kinds of criminals are like cockroaches because they're motivated by the most abject poverty. Raising an objection to the Chinese government accepting stolen metal will just result in great umbrage. How dare the world's developed nations pick on poor little China after they stomped on it for so long.

[Stavroforos]

I'm guessing most countries simply don't care enough about some old warships nobody knows about to protest, especially since it's unlikely that they share the same hostility some appear to harbor towards them.