Italy and France on the path to Trumpism: a growing popular revolt against the elites. + Upcoming elections in Europe

[IrishBlood]

Notice: You may also use this thread to discuss in the slightly wider scope of other European countries and their upcoming elections/referenda/etc. ~Iskar

I thought I would create this thread in light of the below article;

David McWilliams: Why Italy is the next country to fall to Trumpism


First Brexit, then Trump - will Italy be the next domino to fall?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...-35219512.html

The referendum in question concerns constitutional reform and is covered in further detail (along with how poorly the Italian elites are faring in the polls) in this article;

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-it...-idUSKBN13A1BZ

Many observers and experts see this referendum in a domino context, if the elites fail to prevent the proposed constitutional reform, they will essentially be toppled in the subsequent election. I'm not sure when those elections will be, but there will be a definite knock on effect akin to Brexit.

This could well allow for anti-Euro parties or parties that at least want to significantly reform Italy's relationship with the EU to gain power. One of the primary driving factors behind this appears to be the belief that joining the Euro has made Italian industry (once the backbone of the economy) extremely uncompetitive. I believe there might be some truth to this considering Italy's economic stagnation over the last decade: 35% youth unemployment is pretty abysmal.

The French connection in all this is the concern that a success for anti- EU/Anti-establishment parties in Italy will have a knock on effect in France, bolstering support for Mariane Le Pen and the like.

What do you guys think? Could this referendum be the start of a domino effect that could seriously rattle the establishments of Western Europe or is the whole thing being blown out of all proportion in the wake of Trump's victory?

In particular I would like to hear from our French and Italian members to get an 'on the ground' view.

[swabian]

I thought I would create this thread in light of the below article;

David McWilliams: Why Italy is the next country to fall to Trumpism


First Brexit, then Trump - will Italy be the next domino to fall?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...-35219512.html

The referendum in question concerns constitutional reform and is covered in further detail (along with how poorly the Italian elites are faring in the polls) in this article;

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-it...-idUSKBN13A1BZ

Many observers and experts see this referendum in a domino context, if the elites fail to prevent the proposed constitutional reform, they will essentially be toppled in the subsequent election. I'm not sure when those elections will be, but there will be a definite knock on effect akin to Brexit.

This could well allow for anti-Euro parties or parties that at least want to significantly reform Italy's relationship with the EU to gain power. One of the primary driving factors behind this appears to be the belief that joining the Euro has made Italian industry (once the backbone of the economy) extremely uncompetitive. I believe there might be some truth to this considering Italy's economic stagnation over the last decade: 35% youth unemployment is pretty abysmal.

The French connection in all this is the concern that a success for anti- EU/Anti-establishment parties in Italy will have a knock on effect in France, bolstering support for Mariane Le Pen and the like.

What do you guys think? Could this referendum be the start of a domino effect that could seriously rattle the establishments of Western Europe or is the whole thing being blown out of all proportion in the wake of Trump's victory?

In particular I would like to hear from our French and Italian members to get an 'on the ground' view.

There is no french connection this time. This is not 1066.

[Gäiten]

There is no french connection this time. This is not 1066.

You have to think of Donald the Conqueror ....

[IrishBlood]

Here's a bit of a more level headed assessment by an Italian site (In English) that goes into further detail on what the referendum is all about;

http://www.thelocal.it/20161114/ever...nal-referendum

In essence the referendum on constitutional reform is focused on making the government and bureaucracy of the country much more efficient and will save massively on costs by eliminating ineffective offices and senatorial seats. The 'No' campaign seems to more of a protest vote against the current government and it's leaders more than a genuine opposition to what the proposed reforms aim to achieve.

[Basil II the B.S]

Here's a bit of a more level headed assessment by an Italian site (In English) that goes into further detail on what the referendum is all about;

http://www.thelocal.it/20161114/ever...nal-referendum

In essence the referendum on constitutional reform is focused on making the government and bureaucracy of the country much more efficient and will save massively on costs by eliminating ineffective offices and senatorial seats. The 'No' campaign seems to more of a protest vote against the current government and it's leaders more than a genuine opposition to what the proposed reforms aim to achieve.

Blatant lie.

Reform is simply about making the Senate a chamber of regions with less powers than the curent one and restricting the power of referenda, because the elite is frightened by popular vote.

Just like a blatant lie is comparing M5S to Trump. The first is super environmentalist, Trump denies climate change. And M5S have been around longer than Trump in politics.

In France, I doubt Marine le Pen will win, because apparently French people will prefer a Neocon or being squeezed by a champagne Socialist investment banker, while being killed by Muslims, than change.

In Italy, we'll unseat the traitors soon enough instead.

[Altzek]

Here's a bit of a more level headed assessment by an Italian site (In English) that goes into further detail on what the referendum is all about;

http://www.thelocal.it/20161114/ever...nal-referendum

In essence the referendum on constitutional reform is focused on making the government and bureaucracy of the country much more efficient and will save massively on costs by eliminating ineffective offices and senatorial seats. The 'No' campaign seems to more of a protest vote against the current government and it's leaders more than a genuine opposition to what the proposed reforms aim to achieve.

I live here, it isn't.

The referendum is actually focused on making the prime minister's powers presidential-like and eliminating the senate (one of the two chambers of our parliament) in favour of an unelected chamber of regions with very little power.
It isn't even true that we will save on costs, we'd cut on 50 millions of €uros a year, a pittance.
There's also the issue of the regions with a special statute (they're five), they once had to ask Rome if they wanted to edit their constitution or statute or whatever you call it, if it passes, they wouldn't need to anymore.
Finally, there's the fact that, if this thing passes, the last electoral law becomes constitutional. The last electoral law allows the party that reaches 40% of the votes to get a massive, disproportionate majority bonus in parliament, filling 60% the Senate and the Chamber of Deputees with people from that party. It's what we have at the moment, the Democratic Party has a huge majority in both Senate and Chamber, and not all of these people were elected. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of a majority bonus, if only because it would solve the issues deriving from an eventual slim victory of any party, with everything that would derive when it comes to the formation of a new cabinet and voting laws in parliament, but this bonus is just too high and only allows any party in power to pass anything it wants.


tl;dr, it's a "reform" that's aimed at destroying the perfect bicameralism (at the moment Chamber of Deputees and Senate are both elected bodies with very similar roles) we have other than buffing up the powers of the premier and essentially annihilating political pluralism from the country.
Not interested.

[Diocle]

Actually the Referendum is the attempt, by the ex-Stalinist party, of the mentally retarded freemason Matteo Renzi (see pic 1), to overrun the Italian Constitution, so that his minoritary party can get the control over the nation for the next twenty years or more; we must note that Renzi hasn't been elected by Italian citizens, in fact he has been appointed as Prime Minister by the ex Stalinist President of the Republic Giorgio Napolitano, belonging to the same Party of Renzi, today known as PD but formerly known as Partito Comunista Italiano (Italian Communist Party); it's worth noticing also that Giorgio Napolitano has changed two times his political belonging: he started his political career as young Fascist activist enlisted in the GUF (Universitary Fascist Group; see pic 2) then he changed his mind and he became an activist of the PCI (Italian Communist Party; see pic 3), then, after the war, he was a Communist MP and then a Communist senator, and finally the ex-Fascist and ex-Communist politician has been elected President of the Republic (see pic 4; thanks to an infamous agreement between his party and Berlusconi) in his life he has never been member of any democratic political organization.

I vote NO in the idiotic and dangerous referendum promoted by the ex-communist party, all the people I know vote NO, I do hope we will win.

Pics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

pic. 1 Matteo Renzi the freemason:



pic. 2 Giorgio Napolitano as young Fascist activist:



pic. 3 Giorgio Napolitano as Communist leader (on the right the ex-Fascist Napolitano with Nicolae Ceaușescu, and below Napolitano attending an international meeting of Communist activists) :






pic. 4 The infamous old man, actually just an indecent scumbag, as President of the Italian Republic:

About the effects of Italian referendum, I don't think it will have any serious impact on French scenery (usually is France impacting on Italy more than the opposite); all in all I think that President Trump is the real turning point for Europe, the American elections are changing the political assets of the continent, we don't know yet how deep and how great it will be their influence on European theater, IMO it will be simply .. enormous, but I may be wrong, we are sailing in some uncharted waters, the time we're living in is largely an unedited text ..

[IrishBlood]

Actually the Referendum is the attempt, by the ex-Stalinist party, of the mentally retarded freemason Matteo Renzi (see pic 1), to overrun the Italian Constitution, so that his minoritary party can get the control over the nation for the next twenty years or more; we must note that Renzi hasn't been elected by Italian citizens, in fact he has been appointed as Prime Minister by the ex Stalinist President of the Republic Giorgio Napolitano, belonging to the same Party of Renzi, today known as PD but formerly known as Partito Comunista Italiano (Italian Communist Party); it's worth noticing also that Giorgio Napolitano has changed two times his political belonging: he started his political career as young Fascist activist enlisted in the GUF (Universitary Fascist Group; see pic 2) then he changed his mind and he became an activist of the PCI (Italian Communist Party; see pic 3), then, after the war, he was a Communist MP and then a Communist senator, and finally the ex-Fascist and ex-Communist politician has been elected President of the Republic (see pic 4; thanks to an infamous agreement between his party and Berlusconi) in his life he has never been member of any democratic political organization.

I vote NO in the idiotic and dangerous referendum promoted by the ex-communist party, all the people I know vote NO, I do hope we will win.

Pics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

pic. 1 Matteo Renzi the freemason:



pic. 2 Giorgio Napolitano as young Fascist activist:



pic. 3 Giorgio Napolitano as Communist leader (on the right the ex-Fascist Napolitano with Nicolae Ceaușescu, and below Napolitano attending an international meeting of Communist activists) :






pic. 4 The infamous old man, actually just an indecent scumbag, as President of the Italian Republic:

About the effects of Italian referendum, I don't think it will have any serious impact on French scenery (usually is France impacting on Italy more than the opposite); all in all I think that President Trump is the real turning point for Europe, the American elections are changing the political assets of the continent, we don't know yet how deep and how great it will be their influence on European theater, IMO it will be simply .. enormous, but I may be wrong, we are sailing in some uncharted waters, the time we're living in is largely an unedited text ..

Well that was extremely informative. For that reason alone I am glad I started this thread! As you can imagine the intricacies of Italian politics's are not really covered in any great detail by the Irish media

[jockmcplop]

I love that a political movement started by a billionaire based on exploiting the population for his own gain has somehow become the byword for working class people revolting against the elites.

[Cope]

I love that a political movement started by a billionaire based on exploiting the population for his own gain has somehow become the byword for working class people revolting against the elites.

Trumpism is a revolt against the sociopolitical climate; it is not a revolt against the US's established institutions, capitalism or excellence. When commentators refer to the "elite" (within the context of Trump's victory) they're using it as shorthand for the neo-liberal/neo-conservative politicians and their corporate/media advocates who've dominated Washington - and the political discourse - for decades.

[Akrotatos]

What do the polls say?

[Diocle]

What do the polls say?

Polls? Do you mean those American and British comics telling the story about Hitlary Clinton with 70% chances to win against Donald Duck and the Brexit supporters easily defeated?

[Garbarsardar]

A country that sported Berlusconi as PM is beyond danger of Trump. The US being Berlusconized makes more sense.

[Diocle]

A country that sported Berlusconi as PM is beyond danger of Trump. The US being Berlusconized makes more sense.

If you remember, in the thread about American election, I wrote that, as Italian citizen, I had already seen something close to the Trump phenomenon happening in Italy with Silvio Berlusconi, perhaps you remind I wrote that, attacking such characters, focusing on their inherent cultural weakness, their political verginity, their weird character, ridiculizing them, spotting all their phisical and character flaws, it's not only idiotic but even suicidal, because they speak the same language spoken everyday in metro, in train stations, in shops, in cafe, in offices and in factories, the same language spoken in colleges and schools (not by the profs in public, of course), the same slang spoken on the net by billions citizens, students and workers of any country.
Berlusconi and Turmp, however wealthy, speak the same language of the people whose votes they are asking for, so, the people, feeling that even such wealthy men can speak their same language, begin to think that they are close to Trump and Berlusconi, they think that Trump and Berlusconi are part of the people, Trump and Berlusconi are part of their same universe, so, if you attack their language and their cultural attitude, it's like directly attacking the people understanding their words, it's like saying to the people: you are just idiots! Any joke, any insult to Trump and Berlusconi actually is a direct insult to the people undertanding their language.





Sadly the actual idiots are just those who don't understand the language spoken by their fellow citizens. It's the ancient disease of the left (socialist or not) called "Elitism": the symptoms of this horrendous desease are a permanent sense of cultural and intellectual superiority, causing a general feeling of unhappiness and depression, that grows as time goes by, leading to the progerssive detachment from reality of the individual affected, and then it comes the final brain death of the patient with elitism, which is always painful and indecent; the desease is mortal and in few cases the survivors yield permanent brain damage.

Is there any known care for "Elitism"? No, sadly it isn't any real care, the only known care is prevention; a lot of prevention based on a correct mental hygiene (no social media, no newspapers, no TV) invigorated by frequent realism baths and a little bit of daily movement, preferably in public places crowded with common people, and a lot of good old listening, listening and listening, always trying to keep the touch with Reality and Real people.

[Garbarsardar]

If you remember, in the thread about American election, I wrote that, as Italian citizen, I had already seen something close to the Trump phenomenon happening in Italy with Silvio Berlusconi, perhaps you remind I wrote that,

No, I don't remember.

attacking such characters, focusing on their inherent cultural weakness, their political verginity, their weird character, ridiculizing them, spotting all their phisical and character flaws, it's not only idiotic but even suicidal,

Yes, I understand that attacking Trump and Berlusconi is suicidal. There are violent morons among their supporters, indeed. However I come from a culture that historically ridiculed politicians (and that is how we invented comedy) and I am not susceptible to threats on the internet.

because they speak the same language spoken everyday in metro, in train stations, in shops, in cafe, in offices and in factories, the same language spoken in colleges and schools (not by the profs in public, of course), the same slang spoken on the net by billions citizens, students and workers of any country.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can speak any "language". There are idiots however who believe that speaking "the language" somehow makes these wealthy demagogues interested in them or having similar views. It's these poor people who aspire to similar wealth because they live in poverty, a poverty which is created by the wealthy elites that Trump and Berlusconi are part of and represent very well. Q.E.D.:

Berlusconi and Turmp, however wealthy, speak the same language of the people whose votes they are asking for, so, the people, feeling that even such wealthy men can speak their same language, begin to think that they are close to Trump and Berlusconi, they think that Trump and Berlusconi are part of the people, Trump and Berlusconi are part of their same universe, so, if you attack their language and their cultural attitude, it's like directly attacking the people understanding their words, it's like saying to the people: you are just idiots! Any joke, any insult to Trump and Berlusconi actually is a direct insult to the people undertanding their language.

Yes, we know demagogues in my culture, we practically invented the species with Cleon. Everyone can understand the "words" of these cretins, it's just that some people believe them.

Sadly the actual idiots are just those who don't understand the language spoken by their fellow citizens. It's the ancient disease of the left (socialist or not) called "Elitism": the symptoms of this horrendous desease are a permanent sense of cultural and intellectual superiority, causing a general feeling of unhappiness and depression, that grows as time goes by, leading to the progerssive detachment from reality of the individual affected, and then it comes the final brain death of the patient with elitism, which is always painful and indecent; the desease is mortal and in few cases the survivors yield permanent brain damage.
Is there any known care for "Elitism"? No, sadly it isn't any real care, the only known care is prevention; a lot of prevention based on a correct mental hygiene (no social media, no newspapers, no TV) invigorated by frequent realism baths and a little bit of daily movement, preferably in public places crowded with common people, and a lot of good old listening, listening and listening, always trying to keep the touch with Reality and Real people.

Yes in this latest iteration, "elitism" is the left. A little while ago it was the Jews. I have some bad news for you, the Jews are still alive (well most of them) and the ideas propagated by the "academic elites" have generally won:

slavery has been abolished, serfdom and feudalism as well, human sacrifice is out of fashion, women can be educated and can vote, we do not use leeches for cure, we do not believe that lightnings are the work of Zeus, we mostly trust the scientific method. Of course there are still "real people" who believe that Detox is a thing, that climate change was a Chinese hoax, that Obama was born in Kenya and that 9/11 was the work of a judeomasonic conspiracy, and people that believe that Chicago deep pan pizza is pizza. Of course there will always be primitive fundamentalists that would very much like us to revert to lashings and concentration camps and they have their day in the sun in some backwards countries with plenty of oil propped by western gun sales and in places like Breitbart where white nationalists congregate and pretend to be everything but, but on the whole, we are doing better.

[Diocle]

No, I don't remember.

It was a joke my dear, just a joke, or in some way a rhetorical artifact, I do not pretend infact that anyone here remember my posts, I'm not Cicero!

Anyway, about the contents of your post, please let me say that at my age I've read too much of this post-Stalinist and Social-Fascist ideological garbage for not knowing that frequently the best part comes in the end, infact ..

.. but, but on the whole, we are doing better.

Yeah, I know, you're doing your better ..

23 June 2016, UK:




8 November 2016, USA:



.. we have still a Referndum in Italy, the Elections in France, a possible referendum in Netherlands and finally the German elections, so, what can we say about your better? GO ON LIKE THIS, PLEASE!

[Garbarsardar]

It was a joke my dear, just a joke, or in some way a rhetorical artifact, I do not pretend infact that anyone here remember my posts, I'm not Cicero!

Anyway, about the contents of your post, please let me say that at my age I've read too much of this post-Stalinist and Social-Fascist ideological garbage for not knowing that frequently the best part comes in the end, infact ..



Yeah, I know, you're doing your better ..

You know that labelling something as Stalinist does not constitute an argument. It's actually funny since all your preceding -kind of- arguments are soundly based on a very Marxist theory (that of Cultural Hegemony) incidentally put forth by the very Italian Antonio Gramsci. In that Gramsci describes exactly "the domination of a culturally diverse society by the ruling class who manipulate the culture of that society—the beliefs, explanations, perceptions, values, and mores—so that their imposed, ruling-class worldview becomes the accepted cultural norm", so pretty much what you accuse the "elites" of.

Now, if you want to substitute arguments with pictures, be my guest. I'm not going to post a picture of Mussolini (another one who spoke "the language") hanging upside down next to Claretta Petacci. Just google it.

^that theologic view of history.
f.e. the abolition of slavery brought with it the partitioning of Africa, forced labour and millions of deaths.
The elite invented/raised nationalism that brought the deaths of countless of people.
Now they went another way that will bring with it huge problems.
I can go on and on. There is also a dark side that you forgot. Many people see the next dark consequence coming

A part of me agrees with you and in a bad day most of me agrees with you. I think I see both the dark side and the next dark consequence, but I have to believe that we can get better. If I do not harbour that belief, it's kind of pointless to live. Of course I could give in to hedonism, but in my culture the term idiot was invented to describe one that does not partake in common affairs.

[Phier]

I'm not convinced there is a real link between Britex and Trump. I won't deny there is a link in public thinking but I don't think Britex gave us Trump, I think he would have gotten elected anyways.

Trying to link this to French or Italian non-globalist changes as whats best for them also gets a bit tenuous for me since I'm not really up on current French politics and even less so in Italian. So it will be an interesting watch but while I say Trump was a needed phenomena to save the US I can't say the same for other countries as I don't know.

[Ludicus]

Sadly the actual idiots are just those who don't understand the language spoken by their fellow citizens. It's the ancient disease...called "Elitism": the symptoms of this horrendous desease..leading to the progerssive detachment from reality of the individual affected, and then it comes the final brain death of the patient with elitism, which is always painful and indecent; the desease is mortal and in few cases the survivors yield permanent brain damage.
....the only known care is prevention...frequent realism baths and a little bit of daily movement, preferably in public places crowded with common people, and a lot of good old listening, listening and listening, always trying to keep the touch with Reality and Real people.

OK, let's ridicule and dismiss the intellectual elites.The father of the Italian fascism, Giovanni Gentile,would be proud of you, he couldn't have said it any better,
Origins and Doctrine of Fascism, pages 65-67, excerpts,

All intellectuals are naturally drawn to to that ilness of the spirit that is intellectualism. Intellectualism involves that malady as a consequence of which the human being is slowly to neglect to participate, always and in every fashion, in life, with its joys, its pains, and all its responsabilites.
It is necessary to be very clear. Fascism is war against intellectualism. The fascist spirit is will, not intellect.Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism- which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of intellect.
It derives from the from the false belief that one can segregate oneself from life, to idle with systems of empty ideas, blind to the tragedy of human beings who work, love suffer and die.

[Muizer]

it's not only idiotic but even suicidal, because they speak the same language spoken everyday in metro, in train stations, in shops, in cafe, in offices and in factories, the same language spoken in colleges and schools (not by the profs in public, of course), the same slang spoken on the net by billions citizens, students and workers of any country.
Berlusconi and Turmp, however wealthy, speak the same language of the people whose votes they are asking for, so, the people, feeling that even such wealthy men can speak their same language, begin to think that they are close to Trump and Berlusconi, they think that Trump and Berlusconi are part of the people, Trump and Berlusconi are part of their same universe, so, if you attack their language and their cultural attitude, it's like directly attacking the people understanding their words, it's like saying to the people: you are just idiots! Any joke, any insult to Trump and Berlusconi actually is a direct insult to the people undertanding their language.

I won't deny there's truth here. One failing of political left wing thinking is that in bad times, the 'working class' will turn to those who have their best interest at heart. Instead, they turn to people whose rhetoric makes them feel better about themselves, and they will take a hero figure as leader over someone with a sound political agenda any day.