Garrison Mod for 0.9.2

[tmodelsk]

I agree with Navajo Joe: no cavalry, no artillery. Garrison should be mostly constitued by peasants (but they will probably be removed in the future) and levies, plus some militia (for more important settlements), with a bit of "local" units. Nothing more.
I can't find sources mentioning in details how was the local defense. I can only find sources mentioning that the population helped to defend their settlement.

And what you think about missile units ? local javelins , peasant archers, basic crossbowmen ?

[j.a.luna]

I read about EB2 thread and they say about missile units should not appear in garrisom script because peasant that you give weapons in the moment of defend,they dont know how use an archer or javelin, but i think that in middle age was more easy use a crossbow that an archer, so maybe crossbow militias would be a good idea,and maybe for some areas as steppes or some lands with traditional use of archers could implemented levy archers(for england,lithuanians and cumans for example)
Also they said that in cities or mayor settlements peasants and militias defends their settlements but also some proffesional troops that rest in cities for polices works or old citizens that know weapons and fought in some battles...
I agree about no artillery and cavalry
So need close the circle about suitable units in garrisons

[Lifthrasir]

Not sure about javelins except for Ireland (but it is not represented in game anymore). I need to check.
Crossbow militia seems fine.
Basic archers can be used for Norway, Scotland (Highlands), berbers (where it is relevant) and Cumans, possibly Lithuania (but I need to make some researches as well). I don't know for Eastern European factions and I'm not sure for Muslim ones.

[tmodelsk]

@j.a.luna -> IMO there's no need to hurry .
First version is ready for download.
Now lets think, gather info, wait for suggestions from other people ... .
Anyway -> thanks for your commitment.

I'm starting to take more Lifthrasir approach :

• Levy troops

• maybe some missiles - I think of basic crossbow for faction that have access.
  javelins for catholic iberians and (??).
  Archers for England & Cumans & Mongols(??), maybe some strong archer muslim faction.
• One little stronger infantry - better spearmen or some medium swordsmen ONLY for CAPITALS / Biggest cities.

Something like this.

A lot depends on 'campaing' tests result.
How everything is working in a long way in campaign with current solution ?
10 - 40 turns -> how is AI progress ?
Is anybody able to conquer any settlement ?

[Lifthrasir]

Why archers for England??? England was "famous" for its archers but for the "professonal" one. There is no mention (as far as I know) that the common folk could use a bow.
Same remark about javelinmen for Iberian factions. I mean, yes they used javelinmen but as soldiers. Does this mean that any commoner was trained to the use of javelin?

- Norway: there's a royal edit (13th or 14th century if my memory serves me) saying that any Hirdmen must be equipped with bow. Considering their culture and past history, it seems fine to allow them to get basic bowmen at least for early era. (Crossbow became very popular later on).

- Scotland (Highlands): there are several Highlander descriptions mentioning them equipped with bow.

- Cumans: well, I think it's obvious

- Berbers: I need to look through my archives, but I remember to have read something about that.

[tmodelsk]

Why archers for England??? England was "famous" for its archers but for the "professonal" one. There is no mention (as far as I know) that the common folk could use a bow.
Same remark about javelinmen for Iberian factions. I mean, yes they used javelinmen but as soldiers. Does this mean that any commoner was trained to the use of javelin?

- Norway: there's a royal edit (13th or 14th century if my memory serves me) saying that any Hirdmen must be equipped with bow. Considering their culture and past history, it seems fine to allow them to get basic bowmen at least for early era. (Crossbow became very popular later on).

- Scotland (Highlands): there are several Highlander descriptions mentioning them equipped with bow.

- Cumans: well, I think it's obvious

- Berbers: I need to look through my archives, but I remember to have read something about that.

@Lifthrasir - thanks for verifications. My historical knowledge is very fragmented :
.

• Longbowmen to England. I missed the names, thought about Archer Militia, missile attack 3 . Sorry.
  As I read somewhere - English King made archery training obligatory for all peasants, after/before sunday's mass. Or something similar.
  As I understood it in contemporary terms -> English King(s) made Archery a national sport.
  The English Crown was stoking large amounts of bows / arrows, in case of war.
  But I can mess the periods & facts.
  Anyway -> do you think Archer Militia is good for England as garrison force?
  .
• Iberia's Javelins for Portugal, Spain, Aragon.
  I proposed it basing on in-game 'Luisani javelinmen' description, it looks like they were some basic / core / ancient troops in Iberia.
  My thoughts -> throwing the spear (javelin) is much easier & natural then bow / crossbow. Are javelins not something as common as spearmen ?
  But I could be wrong.
  As I understand you don't recommend them as Iberia garrison troops (they were professional soldiers). Ok.
  .
• Javelins in Ireland. Ok.
• Are you recommending Peasant Archers as garrison troops for every faction they are available ?
  What about hunters to factions able to train them ?
  Or just for Norway, Scotland, Cumans, Berbers, Lithuania(?) ?

[tmodelsk]

Current SSHIP has already garrison script for Constantinopole . Possibly its left from Stainless Steel.
Is it intentional or it's a bug ?

;---- Constantinople JIHAD garrison script
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Constantinople
and IsFactionAIControlled
and I_SettlementUnderSiege Constantinople
and IsJihadTarget Constantinople
and I_SettlementOwner Constantinople = byzantium

create_unit Constantinople, Contaratoi, num 3, exp 0, arm 0, wep 0
create_unit Constantinople, Toxotae, num 2, exp 0, arm 1, wep 0
create_unit Constantinople, Toxotae, num 2, exp 0, arm 1, wep 0
end_monitor

I would say -> it's strong one.
As I understand how it works -> when the Byzantium Constantinopole is under siege by Jihad army, this script will create 3 good spearmen & 4 archers per each turn of siege .
For AI only
So if Jihad army won't storm the walls in first 2-3 turns of siege, it than can forget about capturing city and need to start running away.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I agree with Navajo Joe: no cavalry, no artillery. Garrison should be mostly constitued by peasants (but they will probably be removed in the future) and levies, plus some militia (for more important settlements), with a bit of "local" units. Nothing more.
I can't find sources mentioning in details how was the local defense. I can only find sources mentioning that the population helped to defend their settlement.

The question is how do we imagine "reality" and "historicity". For instance, in the SSHIP scale any province should have dozens of towns or castles, not only one. One settlement per province is an utmost simplification. If we would have to make it historical, we would have to split it among number of sieges and the question about "who is left in the city” would not be pertinent.
Another issue is simultaneity of the war process: it's not like an army is coming an sieging and the defender is sitting back doing nothing. There's usually a process of mobilization among elites which fear losing their status. The men were called from the towns and villages. Or there's a problem of time - our turns are half-year, and we know how the movement issues are simplified. So in reality there was time before any siege to gather forces.

All in all: we have to suspend our disbelief. We are therefore free to make simplifications and craft it in such a style we feel historical and which is playable (satisfying gameplay, AI can handle it, it’s possible to code).

My feelings are:
- there were always professional duke’s forces constantly residing in the cities/castles just to prevent rebellion or taking power by competitors or just protecting the ladies – so at least one unit of feudal troops should be in any garrison (including foot knights),
- there were citizens’ organizations (eg. guilds in Western Europe) preparing for defense, taking care of walls and towers, organizing competitions in archery and fencing – so the most useful missile units for defense should be present: non-professional archers (but not peasant), later in the time also crossbows (I still have difficulty to agree it’s historical to use crossbow extensively in 12^th century…). I don’t think it should be the case with javelins even in Spain, similarly to Lifthrasir's opinion.
- spear was the cheapest weapon so militia spearmen should be the base, but swords as well if it’s in the regions’ tradition.
- units with a word in their name “Urban” should appear. In this case I don’t see a problem with “Merchant cavalry” in the cities with the relevant guilds, but in general I agree: no cavalry, no artillery.
- peasants should be out from the game as a unit.
- from the gameplay perspective: I don’t see the need to disband the units. The players should be careful with attacking enemy settlements for risk of mobilization enemy forces. Taking each settlement should be an enterprise. Expansion should be slow.

What happens if there's more than 20 units of defenders in a city?

[tmodelsk]

Yesterday I've played about 20 turns, with 'garrison script' spawning light troops (1-6 units, only Levy Spear, Levy Missile , Spear, Missile etc, ), no heavy troops,
with economy little buffed up (little more money per turn) to speed up AI activity,
with toggle_fow carefully watching Iberia Penisula & Levant.

Results & impressions :

• Garrison Script works exactly as designed & expected in technical terms. No ctds.
• End Turn processing time is only a little bigger - checked on first turn on my comp:
  clean SSHIP ~= 23-24 secs , SSHIP + garrison script ~= 28-29 sec.
  So doesn't matter much.
• So while we're thinking & discussing about troops compositions - there's good news :
  Garrison Script engine is working good.
  .
• Most of the 'initial' AI sieges are broken (rallied) by garrison settlement forces - thanks to garrison script.
  I mean : when AI attacks settlement for the first time, it underestimates the garrison strength,
  after raising additional 'garrison troops' by script -> the defenders are able to rally.
  I think it's a very good effect.
  And then on the next turn(s) AI attacks settlement and is able to capture it,
  because of the 10 'recovery' turns - no additional garrison troops until settlement recovers.
  I saw this scenario in Levant (AI vs AI) : Fatimids attacking Akaba & Jerusalem, crusaders defend with help from raised garrisons,
  & on the next few turns Fatimids captures Jerusalem (~ 1138 - 40) because city has not yet 'recovered' from previous siege.
  So invasion is slowed down but still possible.
  .
• I'm going to raise this settlement recovery time to 12 - 15 turns. (6 - 7.5 years).
  Why? - to avoid potential 'cycles' like :
  Siege , garrison troops are risen, defender win,
  attacker is recovering for a few turns (more that 5-8), on that time defender city is 'recovering',
  and on next siege garrison would be risen again.
• It's possible that 'in reality' or historically heavier troops could or should be raised when city being attacked, but after seeing the campaign & AI gameplay ->
  ->I don't think it's a good idea. Because it's easy to overpower the defender, possibly no one (AI vs AI with auto-resolve) will be able to capture any settlement.
  Its a real risk.
  Also such raised heavier troops (historically possible scenario ex.: old veterans living in city) would be used by AI / player in the next turn to field actions / attack purposes.
  So right now my conclusions are:
  I don't know what are exactly the historic reality & facts (feudal system, garrisons, etc, ... ),
  but looking at the gameplay & AI progress it looks like -> no auto - raising of heavy elite troops.
• Me - player attacking AI settlements.
  My impressions are good. I need to prepare larger forces, so I need to gather them first, so more money is needed, ... so expansion is slowed down.
  .
• Next : AI is stupid in defending its cities. Example :
  Even if I'm at war (Me Aragon <--> AI Moors), 1st turn, my large army is gathering near border to capture Valencia, not hidden,
  but the Moors AI will empty the city from garrison leaving only 3 troops and go to attack Spaniards.
  So without ga-script I'm easy able to block AI on bridge & siege Valencia with relative small forces. Now - no more.
  Now - with ga-script - In Spanish - Moors war no one was able to capture opposing settlement 'luckily' / easily through this 20 turns
  There were battles, sieges, defended sieges, battles, ..... , and then cease of fire.
  
  Eariler in my games - I've seen many times that weaker Spaniards are able to luckily capture Cordoba or other large Moors city guarded by 1 unit while large Moors fullstacks are wandering around but won't be on time to prevent city capture.
  Not this time. But need to play more.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Tomek,

I thought the garrison script was meant to be only for the AI attacked by the player. Now I see it's also AI vs AI. I have doubts because the AI doesn't know there's this script and I'd expect many, many broken sieges and nothing happening on the campaign map. Actually, I'm against such type of script.
I've watched the advance of the Mongols in my campaign. They outnumber the enemies like 10-1, but still their progress is slooooow, after 60 turns they have 5 provinces or so. The AI is really, really incapable of taking the provinces, and we should not make its life more difficult.

A seemingly non-related issue are the civil wars. The AI is also not capable to learn the usurper's mechanism and I've seen many civil wars tearing other factions apart. The player is aware and can be vigilant seeing usurpers etc. This is not necessarily wrong - it provides dynamics to the game and prevents crushing smaller factions. But the AI should be compensated somehow and the player's life should be made more difficult. In my thinking the garrison script I had in mind was meant to be one of the tools.
We should also think how the player would exploit the mechanics - for instance, if you introduce these settlement recovery time, a skilled player will make a mock siege, spawn the garrison, wait the garrison leaving the city, and then stage a serious siege. Again - benefit of the player, detrimental to the AI.

Actually, the reason why I like so much SSHIP is that the're many mechanisms preventing easy win by the player (well, Alavaria shows us that conquering whole Europe is still possible withing 100 years )

cheers
JoC

[Lifthrasir]

Alavaria is an "exception" (in the good meaning of the word)

@ tmodelsk, these tests look promising. Good job

@ JoC, I guess your inputs need to be test to see how it works. That's the only way to find out what the best settings are

Regarding the garrison in history, here are some infos:
- The castle of Namur (Belgium) had only 4 men to keep it between 1355-56 (peace period).
- The castle of Hesdin (France), had 7 men during the 14th century.
Of course, the garrison was bigger in time of war but not that much actually.
- During the War of Flanders in 1297 AD, the castle of Rihoult, near Saint Omer (France), had its garrison increased from 12 to 36 men.
- The Castle of Beuvry, near Bethune (France), had 3 mounted men at arm (no description unfortunately), 32 foot sergeants between April and July 1297. There were only 30 sergeants from August to November of the same year. Then, from November and onward, only 10 sergeants.
In general, no mention of crossbowmen before the 14th century for garrison and in limited amount. Very limited or no mounted units for garrison. Most of the sources I've found mention sergeants and men at arm for garrison. Archers and crossbowmen in limited amount. Note that these sources are mostly from the 13th-14th centuries and concerning the North part of France (Normandy, Artois, Flanders).

Regarding towns and for the same area (easy for me to find sources because that's basically mine ): Except for specific cases and periods for which the garrison was exceptionnally important, sources aren't numerous. Anyway, in most of them, the garrsison was mostly constitued by urban militias with the possibility of reinforcement by more "professional" or "feudal" units but of lower quality.
For urban militias, recruitment was based depending on neighborhood, place to live and/or profession. No exact numbers found but it seems their amount could reach about 1000 men for most important cities. Most of them seemed to have been constitued by the Bourgeois. Only fortified places inside the cities were controlled by lords or royal representatives. Their role could be defensive and offensive as well. There are records of urban militias helping for siege (on the attacker side). Here are some figures I could find:
- Valenciennes: 2000 men during the 14th century.
- Saint-Omer: 2024 men from 1341 AD
- Reims: around 3000 men during the 15th century.
- Bruges: 6044 men in 1340 AD
- Gent: 7486 men in 1357 AD
These numbers have to be revised if you consider the real amount of men competent. For instance an official document from Mons (Belgium) in 1471, mentions that only 361 men were competents on 1000 recruitable for a population estimated around 11,000 people. So basically, for that example, only 36% of the recruitable people and/or only about 3% of the population could serve in the urban militia.
Other population categories (peasants, craftmen, etc...) could in certain areas join these urban militias as support and if not already tied in defense of local lord castle.
The use of sergeants, archers and/or crowbowmen seems to have happened mostly during the 14th century with the etablishment of charters. That means that priviledges were granted to some archers and/or crossbowmen brotherhood. Local lords, princes or kings could make donations as well to help financially.
Finally, but mostly from the 15th century, external military contingents could reinforce these urban militias but local population were suspicious, to not say hostile, to these "professional" soldiers. There are finally a few records of mercenaries recruitment for a limited period (very expensive obviously).

All in all, this is just for information. I keep looking for more info.

Edit: For Paris in 1405 (population estimated between 80,000 and 130,000 depending on sources): Royal military forces: between 20 and 80 cavalry men and between 200 and 800 foot sergeants. There was a urban militia but no info about its size.

[Alavaria]

Eariler in my games - I've seen many times that weaker Spaniards are able to luckily capture Cordoba or other large Moors city guarded by 1 unit while large Moors fullstacks are wandering around but won't be on time to prevent city capture.
Not this time. But need to play more.

It's hilarious the sort of stunts you can pull off sometimes. Especially funny is when the AI cannot hold the settlement which rebels back spawning a massive superelite army or so on.

[Jurand of Cracow]

It's hilarious the sort of stunts you can pull off sometimes. Especially funny is when the AI cannot hold the settlement which rebels back spawning a massive superelite army or so on.

This shows weaknesses of the AI. And there're plenty. It's why I'm strongly against AI vs. AI garrisons. They should be an obstacle for the player, not the AI.
@Alavaria - can you give me hints to my questions?

[tmodelsk]

Thanks for everybody involved in this thread for your info & opinions & proposals.
I'm gathering all your input in my head and 'compiling' it.
I look at different mods & their garrisons scripts (TATW, DLV, 1648, Gigantus guide etc, .... ) for technical possibilities.

I think future version of my garrison script will look like :

• I will try to keep it simple, lightweight in terms of performance (end turn duration) & script size.
• Scenarios AI vs AI, Player vs AI, AI vs Player : raising of small garrison, something like : size of garrison = settlements size -1 or -2.
• Lightweight spear troops, militias, possibly local ones (ex: Fyrd Spear on British isles), with some native missile troops for some factions (see Lifthrasir spec),
  crossbowmen in larger settlements if available for faction.
• Only for scenario: Player vs AI: raising additional one - two heavier unit to help AI defend & make player invasion harder.
• 'no unguarded settlements script' stays as is .
• settlement recovery concept - stays as is, but longer settlement recovery, 5 - 7.5 years .

[j.a.luna]

tmodelsk how do you go in your submod? Need some support or ideas? will you upload the new changes?In principle the garrison mod works well no?
the idea about add more units depending size settlement is good and also add heavy infantry for AI, for do the game more challenge for human player and also if you can addlocal troops for factions for do more unique

[tmodelsk]

Work is in progress.
I think 1-3 days and the version 1.1 will be ready for download.
Script will create different garrisons for AI vs Player (small size) , AI vs AI (medium size) , Player vs AI (large size & one strong unit) , and of course depending on settlement size.
So logic & my ideas & JoC suggestions & j.a.luna suggestions will be somehow met.
I've already managed to create 'engine', effective one , only 199 monitors. See here.
j.a.luna - I use faction / class table created by you for reference & help, thanks for creating it.
Now I just nedd a few days more to finish it.

[j.a.luna]

j.a.luna - I use faction / class table created by you for reference & help, thanks for creating it.
Now I just nedd a few days more to finish it.

ok perfect friend!bit a bit will improve this fantastic minimod and when new sship patch come i will add this minimod, i think that is very useful for challenge and playability of the game
what do you think? you think that will improve the game for player and be realistic and historical?

[tmodelsk]

Hi.

Garrison script v.1.1 is ready for download, see the first post.

Whats New & Key Features :

• Player sieging & attacking AI = Large garrison for AI with one Heavy Infantry.
  
• AI attacking AI = medium garrison.
• AI attacking Player = small garrison for player
• Garrisons raised only when storming the walls (besieging is not enough to garrison be created), both for player & AI.
• re - worked garrison units assignment for every factions, more local troops based on regions & hidden resources

It's a stable & polished version.

Enjoy. Play the game. Learn history
Please report here general 'strategic situation' in the world (slower expansions ?? , who is expanding, who is not, ..... ).
Please report here your - player status, expansions considerations (are garrisons raised against player enough strong to make game more challenging ?)

The number of troops rised in particular settlement level in particular scenario (AI vs Ai, .... ) could be easily changed.
So - please test it , think of it, report your conclusions.

[j.a.luna]

yes is a wonderful mod! i tried and all was good!a question friend..when the new patch of sship is coming you need to rework all your work and campaign script.text?
i hope that sship remove peasant infantry and will add more local and specifical troops

[tmodelsk]

=j.a.luna;15184467
a question friend..when the new patch of sship is coming you need to rework all your work and campaign script.text?
i hope that sship remove peasant infantry and will add more local and specifical troops

The answer is NO , I won't have to rework this.
I'm aware that SSHIP will have further releases, and I've done this (and my other things that are in progress) in a manner of 'updater / patcher' style.
I'm going to release it (my updater-patcher-installer) ,
so even if I'm gonna be offline for a longer time, people can use it & apply modifications (like garrison script) when new SSHIP will be released.
But it's not finished yet.

So only minor reworking would be required, if for example a unit used in Garrison will be deleted by SSHIP team.

j.a.luna - great that you're testing it.
Please 'think critically' & creatively.
Maybe script should add more heavy units when player is attacking ?
Maybe in general -> one more unit per every settlement level, .... etc.

This version 1.1 is a 'safe' one. I want to rather proceed in 'small steps', do not make very big changes from the scratch.
Now we have safe 'base' version, we can gather experience & conclusions.