Getting crushed as the Athenians

[A_B]

By the Romans. My Hoplites are no match for roman Hastati, let alone Principes. Playing on VH campaign, Med. battles. I'll attach roman armies with near twice as many men, attempt to pin the romans with my Hoplites, and then flank with skirmishers and slingers. My hoplites route soon enough, and then the missile troops are dead meat. Long time TW player, and never had this problem before (on medium battles).

Any help or ideas appreciated.

[Khamac]

don't rush your hoplies, it will make your men disorder, move close to Roman army, wait to pass disorder status, then engage. And skirmishers not so well in prolong battle, you must use some melee unit to attack from behide shwn throwing javelin for fast souting enemies. Your general also can raise morale while doing those.

[A_B]

Hmm... just played a battle, five hoplites (650 each) vs. five Principes (400 and change each). I lost 550 men, they lost 61. Same battle again, another loss 560 to 101. These aren't even close, and are pretty much just straight line battles. I understand romans winning in a straight up equal battle, but not at the cost difference.

I just played the same battle from the Roman side: 61 roman losses to 381 athenian. Wasn't even close.

FYI, what you're doing with the combat seems awesome...just seems to still need some balancing.

[JaM]

Depends on unit quality. Hoplites are citizen troops. Their quality was not so high in that era. yet, they will hold the line, if their morale is high enough. keep General close, use inspire and rally abilities. Try getting Thorakites as soon as possible (Aspis equipped infantry is at disadvantage against enemy with active shields, so getting Thureos equipped infantry will nullify that ) . And use heavy skirmishers like Thureophoroi (or Peltasts) on flanks. they are decent flanking force, much better than some javelinmen or slingers. Use cavalry for flanking.. But most important thing is to have a good general to overcome them. Roman infantry was exceptional in what they did best - frontal clash with the enemy.


Stats wise, Greek Hoplites are not that bad vs Hastati (morale 50 vs 48, melee defense 38 vs 18, melee attack 32 vs 40, charge 22 vs 10). Its the shield use which makes quite a lot of difference in this case (Aspis +10 to defense +40 to armor resistance vs Scutum +36 to defense and +20 to armor resistance - sum difference just 6 points) Yet, due to their tactics, Hastati are fighting in open formation, Hoplites in hoplite phalanx, which gives up all the initiative to Romans.


If you look at Carthaginians, they have even worse infantry than Athenians, yet its possible defeat Romans due to tactics, and AI will do this to you quite often if you let him (AI likes to bring reinforcements). Carthaginian Infantry uses two lonchae spears,which are inferior to greek dory but could be thrown, so they have ability to throw one during charge, and use second in melee. Yet, main Carthaginian strength is not in their infantry but in their cavalry.. Heavy cavalry can flank you and wreak havoc in your rear while Libyans will hold the line.. Carthaginian AI usually also uses Lonchophoroi together with cavalry as flanking force, and of course elephants.

It is possible to defeat Romans, it just presents extra challenge. Romans were ancient superpower, with supreme military system, they must present big challenge. Balancing them down would not make them justice.


edit:

I think a lot of problems you have might come from General itself. For example, developing General as Strategist means he will get more strategic movement, but morale of his troops will be decreased (extra marching) When defending against Romans, your best bet would be Commander or Warrior types of generals. Commander increases defense and morale, Warrior increases offense (but decreases defense) and has some traits that will decrease morale to enemy troops.. Skilled general will make a huge difference, but you need to train your generals.. If there is no chance to train them on land, assign them to navy but develop them for land general skills, but dont leave them inactive somewhere.. Sometimes its even worth letting captured province revolt few times, those battles give you good amount of experience for your general. As Athens, i would assume you would have to take out Thessaly and Epirus, then fight the Illirians, before Romans start to appear.. Also having good navy might prevent them from getting to Greece in the first place. Just block the Brundisium (actual blockade is not necessary, just make sure your ZOC covers ZOC of the city completely so enemy transports have no way through - you might need 2 fleets for that) and destroy any transport fleets if they dare to go through you.. Fleet of 10 Triremes can take out 20 transports quite easily..


and of course, best way how to deal with Romans is to not fight them at all.. trade with them, make them your ally, even accept vassalage if they are powerful.. they will have no reason to come to you.. it will buy you time to expand east into small asia, get stronger and richer so eventually you might challenge them on your terms, with many armies..


edit2:

3.06 contain one small adjustment for Greeks. Their Hoplites got the same stats, as they have for Wrath of Sparta campaign, which means morale got increased from 50 to 52, and defense is increased from 38 to 40.

[A_B]

The 3.06 edit seems to make a difference. I just won a custom battle. Five Hoplite vs. five Principes. I also used the 610 denari early Principes against the Athenian Hoplites, rather than the first principes in the lineup (the 400 denari version). There was a 10 point difference in armor. The cost of 610 also seemed more in line with the 650 for the Hoplites. 400 seemed too cheap by comparison.

[JaM]

i did not change custom battle costs at all, i have focused solely on campaign balance. At some point i will change those custom battle costs as well.