Erdogan's prelude to war.

[alhoon]

I hate Erdoğan, I work with HDP and Kurds, I have seen the worst of this government

I would say here, that there's a real chance for you to be arrested.

I seriously doubt a war with Greece is on the agenda.

I agree, it's not on the agenda. That doesn't mean it's impossible to happen though, and since nobody here or there plans for it, it could be chaotic and it will be unexpected.

Government is more concerned with proving Syriza is a failure to show it as incompetency of "left parties" in ruling. Thats as much as Greece gets mentioned in Turkish politics.

That's really not hard to do... if you're leftwing and want a defense though, remind them that rightwing governments were as incompetent. SYRIZA is incompetent and inherited a bad situation, making it worse. Rightwings were incompetent and inherited a bad situation and made it worse; then they passed it to SYRIZA. Center-left government before the rightwings was incompetent and inherited a bad situation and made it worse; then they passed it to the rightwings. Rightwing government before the center-left one was incompetent and inherited a bad situation and made it worse.
It goes back a few cycles of incompetent governments, till we reach 1981. An incompetent government that took the first big loan to push us out of the mire, but wasted much of the opportunity by throwing money around (and stealing it). That's when the "borrow now, worry how we repay the loan later" mentality started.

Thats as much as Greece gets mentioned in Turkish politics. Even then, they make somewhat friendly remarks about Tsipras for some reason.

Because he's not Anti-Turkish and wants closer ties with Turkey. He has made some remarks that are, frankly, unpatriotic.

[alhoon]

3000 tanks in 1987 by Bulgaria would mean Bulgaria amassing it's entire mechanized divisions plus a lot more...

You mean "half of the mechanized divisions of the Soviet Union, despite bad relations between them at the time" when you say a lot more. IIRC USA now has like 8500 tanks.
The 3000 figure is probably a typo, although even amassing 300 tanks on the Bulgarian Border seems fishy.

[AnthoniusII]

Provocations continue:
I have writen few posts ago about Castelorizo insident.
Now we have a new one again in Castelorizo island.
Turkey announced Naval exersises with real fire inside the Hellenic national waters arround Castelorizo!




Guys you continue to talk with "wishes" but FACTS prove you otherwise!
Pease remember that Greek Navy already has a submarine and a missile fast attack ship in Castelorizo since the last insident.

Provocations continue untill someone's nerve will brake and find an excuse for war!

FACTS gendlemen FACTS.

[PointOfViewGun]

You mean "half of the mechanized divisions of the Soviet Union, despite bad relations between them at the time" when you say a lot more. IIRC USA now has like 8500 tanks.
The 3000 figure is probably a typo, although even amassing 300 tanks on the Bulgarian Border seems fishy.

No, I mean Bulgaria, as that's what he claimed about. Even if we take what you say as granted and assume we're talking about the Soviet Union as a whole then having half their mechanized divisions at a relatively tiny length of border in a matter of days. That's equally bizarre.

Provocations continue:
I have writen few posts ago about Castelorizo insident.
Now we have a new one again in Castelorizo island.
Turkey announced Naval exersises with real fire inside the Hellenic national waters arround Castelorizo!

Guys you continue to talk with "wishes" but FACTS prove you otherwise!
Pease remember that Greek Navy already has a submarine and a missile fast attack ship in Castelorizo since the last insident.

Provocations continue untill someone's nerve will brake and find an excuse for war!

FACTS gendlemen FACTS.

Facts are something your posts here lack at an unprecedented level.

[Tureuki]

Sorry for exercising 5 cm away from our front door.

Kumluca is my mom's town YAY.

[gastovski]

snip

I can speak for every patriot, Sunni Muslim and true citizens of Republic of Turkey. Yes, if needed be we will be fighting for our country under Erdoğan's guidance just like we did at attempted coup. But i can assure you this war won't be against Greece or Bulgaria, only to secure southern borders and sunni population. Nobody cares pilots or any other generals, we people of turkey are willing to throw stones/fists at our enemies if we have to, just like we did at attempted coup. Greeks and Bulgarians have nothing to worry about, we really don't want to fight vs you.

[Tureuki]

Erdoğan's guidance, lol because he is the perfect guide to listen and follow. Dude is basically no different then average youtube user under war simulation videos. An uneducated person with wet dreams and no far sight or empathy.

I would only fight for the security of my country and its actual interests. He can use his fan boys if he wants to accomplish his imperialistic wet dreams.

[alhoon]

Seriously?!? Turkey announced exercises within our national waters?! That can't be real.

Sorry for exercising 5 cm away from our front door.

That's 5 meters from your front door and it's within our yard. Go exercise on a different side of your house where you won't have to do it in another person's house.

If the Black Sea is too cold for you this time of the year, try west of Antioch.

[PointOfViewGun]

Seriously?!? Turkey announced exercises within our national waters?! That can't be real.

That's 5 meters from your front door and it's within our yard. Go exercise on a different side of your house where you won't have to do it in another person's house.

If the Black Sea is too cold for you this time of the year, try west of Antioch.

Not within your yard, but at a tiny disputed point of land over a hundred km away from the nearest Greek land that you yourself call as your own today. Ironically, you acknowledged this particular island to be a gray area when I showed you the relevant documents a few years ago...

[alhoon]

Not within your yard, but at a tiny disputed point of land over a hundred km away from the nearest Greek land that you yourself call as your own today. Ironically, you acknowledged this particular island to be a gray area when I showed you the relevant documents a few years ago...

Now, I did not. Turkey allegedly is taking exercises in an area that lies South of Castelorizo, an island inhabited by Greeks.
Also, I didn't call any Greek island or Islet as gray area, I said that we need a better definition of what islet is. My country is small enough as it is, I don't plan to acknowledge anything that makes it smaller. As far as I am concerned, we should dispute Imbros and Tenedos and require you to hand them back. Yes, those were legally ceded to Turkey, but they shouldn't be there. Give us those, you held them long enough.
Would that amount to trolling Turkey? Yes. But you guys are worse than that with your government trolling ours.

[PointOfViewGun]

Now, I did not. You're talking about an area South of Castelorizo, an island inhabited by Greeks.
Also, I didn't call any Greek island or Islet as gray area, I said that we need a better definition of what islet is.

Now, I did not. Turkey allegedly is taking exercises in an area that lies South of Castelorizo, an island inhabited by Greeks.
Also, I didn't call any Greek island or Islet as gray area, I said that we need a better definition of what islet is.

Now, I did not. Turkey allegedly is taking exercises in an area that lies South of Castelorizo, an island inhabited by Greeks.
Also, I didn't call any Greek island or Islet as gray area, I said that we need a better definition of what islet is. My country is small enough as it is, I don't plan to acknowledge anything that makes it smaller. As far as I am concerned, we should dispute Imbros and Tenedos and require you to hand them back. Yes, those were legally ceded to Turkey, but they shouldn't be there. Give us those, you held them long enough.
Would that amount to trolling Turkey? Yes. But you guys are worse than that with your government trolling ours.

This post keeps evolving... There are no islands or islets south of Meis as you yourself seem to have realized later on... The islet you had in mind was Rho which you used to acknowledge as being a gray area as the document you claimed to be giving the islet to Italians, and then to Greeks, was not ratified, hence, null. What makes parts of this region gray area is also the unilateral increase in Greek airspace of an extra 4nm which where most of Greek claims of Turkish boundary violations occur.

Ah, good old irredentism, wanting two islands clearly defined by international laws to be of Turkish soil, and mentioning it randomly. Then we get some people having the face to talk about how Turks are the aggressors...

Then again, we're talking about an exercise with no trace of information online whatsoever other than a random Greek website... The claim doesn't even makes sense but it's a good catch for the uneducated. Just because an exercise note establishes boundaries like that doesn't mean it somehow includes territorial waters of an other nations. That's an assumption the Greek article was making. You also have absolutely no idea on what they're gonna do and why they're doing it there. Have fun with blind nationalism though, please.

[alhoon]

There are no islands or islets south of Meis as you yourself seem to have realized later on...

Yeap...

The islet you had in mind was Rho which you used to acknowledge as being a gray area as the document you claimed to be giving the islet to Italians, and then to Greeks, was not ratified, hence, null. What makes parts of this region gray area is also the unilateral increase in Greek airspace of an extra 4nm which where most of Greek claims of Turkish boundary violations occur.

Rho is not disputed. Some islets near it are.
And about the "sea border ends here, air borders end 4 miles away" - I didn't make that. Others did. Nor I said I support it. Nor I said I don't support it. You don't have my opinion on that (cause I'm conflicted about it).

Ah, good old irredentism, wanting two islands clearly defined by international laws to be of Turkish soil, and mentioning it randomly. Then we get some people having the face to talk about how Turks are the aggressors...

I hope you do realize, that I was talking about trolling Turkey the way they troll us. Yes, you started the trolling circle.

Then again, we're talking about an exercise with no trace of information online whatsoever other than a random Greek website... The claim doesn't even makes sense but it's a good catch for the uneducated. Just because an exercise note establishes boundaries like that doesn't mean it somehow includes territorial waters of an other nations. That's an assumption the Greek article was making. You also have absolutely no idea on what they're gonna do and why they're doing it there. Have fun with blind nationalism though, please.

Check my posts. I didn't say I believe that exercise would happen as claimed by Antonius (hence the "allegedly" part), and I don't know whether the Turkish Navy has got permission to use this area (and not shoot in it) while they do their own stuff in their own waters. Do I consider it possible for the Turkish navy to do an exercise inside our waters without permission? Yes. Do I consider it sure thing just because of a random site? No.
I really don't trust Greek random sites about this stuff. Too many Golden Dawn members with internet access and too much free time.
If they spent on useful things 1/2 he energy they do in blowing crap out of proportion or downright imagining things, Greece, the country they love so much, would be in a better shape now.

[Kyriakos]

There are no racial minorities in Turkey (or any other place in the world, because there is no such thing as different human races) and Alewites are a religious, not a tribal or an ethnic, group.

I personally believe that the Hürriyet article covered the issue pretty accurately, as usual. Erdoğan's irredentist rhetoric is a typical populist tactic of gathering votes, when you have nothing concrete to offer to your people. It also allows him to take a jab at CHP, by implying that the Treaty of Lausanne was not as beneficial for the Republic of Turkey as it has been presented by the Turkish historiography. Not that it excuses Erdoğan's nationalist statements, but similar rhetoric is not that uncommon, in the Balkans and the Middle East. Patriotism still unfortunately remains a powerful tool to appeal to the masses...

Now that being said, concluding from these abstract historical references that Turkey is planning to invade almost everyone of her neighbors, including two NATO members, Greece and Bulgaria, is simply paranoid, to say the least. There is neither any factual evidence nor any relevant historical precedent that a country, manipulated by a single crazy person, will go rogue and start attacking her allies here and there, while also annexing huge swaths of foreign lands. Claims like these are nothing but the other side of the coin, ultra-nationalist phantasies and victim complexes of someone's homeland being before some sort of an Apocalypse, when the carefully orchestrated conspiracies against his beloved country will finally take place.

Let's all calm down, just like we eventually did exactly one year ago, when chauvinists from both sides imagined of a Caucasus mountainous war between the Russian and Turkish armies. Only in the Iraqi front, tenses are indeed high, but that still doesn't mean that Mosul is going to be incorporated to Turkey.

Well, having a dictator speak of getting more spheres/territory against neighboring countries may be normal in Turkey, but it is surely a very dumb and appalling thing to do. If we were living in any rational world order there would finally be sanctions against the dangerous and demented clown you have as president.

Btw, i am not afraid he will actually declare war on us. Usually countries which are in perpetual civil war build-up don't do well in a war.

[alhoon]

That dangerous clown is better than ISIS\Assad and everyone wished he would spend Turkish money to stabilize Syria and commit Turkish forces instead of their voters' children. So no sanctions forthcoming. It's a testament to EU's superiority complex that they treat this dangerous clown with the contempt he deserves, instead of pretending to like him a bit more in order to do the dirty job for them before the EU backstabs him and go back on their word.

[Kyriakos]

Well, i am fed up with all of them. Yet surely it makes little sense to fear Turkey. You are talking of a country which has had coups and civil unrest approaching civil war for the last ten years. This isn't the kind of society which would win a war against anything, let alone a side -our own 'glorious' current state- also having a risk army.

I foresee this sort of crap continuing, until Turkey inevitably experiences the next coup or civil unrest crisis.

[Love Mountain]

Nationalism strengthens autocracies. Multi culturalism weakens it.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[PointOfViewGun]

Rho is not disputed. Some islets near it are.
And about the "sea border ends here, air borders end 4 miles away" - I didn't make that. Others did. Nor I said I support it. Nor I said I don't support it. You don't have my opinion on that (cause I'm conflicted about it).

I already have your opinion on extended airspace of Greece since you defend it's application as its what's the Greek claims of Turkish violation of their airspace is based on.

I hope you do realize, that I was talking about trolling Turkey the way they troll us. Yes, you started the trolling circle.

So, it's a pissing contest. I see. Tell me though. What does Turkey trolls Greece on?

Check my posts. I didn't say I believe that exercise would happen as claimed by Antonius (hence the "allegedly" part), and I don't know whether the Turkish Navy has got permission to use this area (and not shoot in it) while they do their own stuff in their own waters. Do I consider it possible for the Turkish navy to do an exercise inside our waters without permission? Yes. Do I consider it sure thing just because of a random site? No.
I really don't trust Greek random sites about this stuff. Too many Golden Dawn members with internet access and too much free time.
If they spent on useful things 1/2 he energy they do in blowing crap out of proportion or downright imagining things, Greece, the country they love so much, would be in a better shape now.

No, Turkey, or any other country for that matter, doesn't need permission to hold a military exercise in international waters. The vast majority of the waters inside that rectangle is international waters. The waters of the Greek island likely doesn't even make 5% of the entire parameter in question. You may say now that you don't believe that the exercise would happen as claimed here but that still somehow didn't stop you from talking as if it was true. Otherwise, what's the point of your objections?

[AnthoniusII]

The map and the NOTA(N) was published not by a greek site but by the Turkish Navy as warning to civilian ships.
If that is not a fact by you...then you have a twisted prospective of what is a fact or not.
Turkey is one of the ONLY three countries that has not signed the the International Law of Watters created by UN 30 years ago.
Turkey has the right to exersise in international waters. That is true. But 5 miles away from Castelorizo coasts are Greek National waters (even with the 6 miles limit Turkey asks for decades).
Also you have a twisted opinion of what the extend of Greek national waters to 12 miles (like ILoW by UN) gives Greece the right to do, will do to Turkey.

The International Law for Waters is spesific.
"In areas that two or more countries have comon water borders in distances less than 12 nautical miles the comon borders are the middle line of the distances of all coutries coasts.
I hoped that you could understand that in Chios -for example- that the distance is less than two nautical miles between the island and the Turkish coasts the borders are in the middle of the distance. Greece does not demand to "leave" your coasts in a distance bigger than this distance.
Also International Law for Waters is spesific to another point. "In case that teritoral waters of a state in the distance of 12 nautical miles leave no international waters available, there must be a three miles wide pass for all vessels as international waters. That means that even if Greece uses the right of the INTERNATIONAL LAW to extend its teritorial waters to 12 miles there will be always a number of passes for international use. But Turkey as a booly uses Greece's right to follow the law as an excuse for war voted by its parliament.
Turkey is the ONLY state on Earth that voted as war action the compliance to international law!
I hoped you have learned that all communities use comon laws (like the ToS of TWC).

Your country does exactly the same 40 years now. It ignores UN "ToS"...

[PointOfViewGun]

The map and the NOTA(N) was published not by a greek site but by the Turkish Navy as warning to civilian ships.
If that is not a fact by you...then you have a twisted prospective of what is a fact or not.

So, link to the Turkish Navy publishing it?

Turkey is one of the ONLY three countries that has not signed the the International Law of Watters created by UN 30 years ago.

Turkey, Israel, Syria, Peru, Venezuela, and USA did not sign the treaty. So, not 3...

Turkey has the right to exersise in international waters. That is true. But 5 miles away from Castelorizo coasts are Greek National waters (even with the 6 miles limit Turkey asks for decades).

That doesn't make sense the slightest.

Also you have a twisted opinion of what the extend of Greek national waters to 12 miles (like ILoW by UN) gives Greece the right to do, will do to Turkey.

The International Law for Waters is spesific.
"In areas that two or more countries have comon water borders in distances less than 12 nautical miles the comon borders are the middle line of the distances of all coutries coasts.
I hoped that you could understand that in Chios -for example- that the distance is less than two nautical miles between the island and the Turkish coasts the borders are in the middle of the distance. Greece does not demand to "leave" your coasts in a distance bigger than this distance.

This is a completely moot point. You're arguing against a ghost.

Also International Law for Waters is spesific to another point. "In case that teritoral waters of a state in the distance of 12 nautical miles leave no international waters available, there must be a three miles wide pass for all vessels as international waters. That means that even if Greece uses the right of the INTERNATIONAL LAW to extend its teritorial waters to 12 miles there will be always a number of passes for international use. But Turkey as a booly uses Greece's right to follow the law as an excuse for war voted by its parliament.
Turkey is the ONLY state on Earth that voted as war action the compliance to international law!
I hoped you have learned that all communities use comon laws (like the ToS of TWC).

Your country does exactly the same 40 years now. It ignores UN "ToS"...

The convention in question is not an international law within the context of this discussion as it's not accepted by both parties. It's also not part of the ToS of UN as it's not arbitrary. It's only applicable if both parties accept it. You're just making stuff up as you go along. It gets annoying to read after a while. Having this 3 mile passage doesn't address the fact that Greece extending its borders unilaterally cuts the waters Turkish fishermen used for centuries. It would basically kill Turkish fishing industry in the entire Aegean coast.

[RedGuard]

If a conflict were to begin in the middle east between Turkey and Russia, wouldn't it be Greece's duty to come to the aid of Turkey? Then Greece would be in the very awkward position of preventing the capture of the Bosporus by fellow christian invaders.

You guys are busy arguing about some pathetic islands in the aegean, when everyone knows if Greece or Turkey were to come under assault by a foreign power, the first one there would be the other one.