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Thread: Erdogan's prelude to war.

  1. #121
    Akrotatos's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Now; Turkey is unhappy with Lausanne treaty and we want to change it. Just like Greeks who changed the treaties so many time since 1821. Actually, if changing treaties is a bad thing, well, then why Greeks did that so many times? lol
    At that point there were more Greeks living outside of Greece than in.

    And these borders changed with war. So in other words you support war against Greece and 19th century nationalism. Please keep posting, not that I am personally surprised but it is good for others to read this.
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  2. #122
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Nice, Odenat, let's go back to 19th-early 20th century nationalism again. That turned out great, last time. How about this: nationalism is a dangerous ideology, states have no right to intervene in order to protect those they consider "their own people" (Russia anyone?), and let the people decide if they want to be part of a state or not.

  3. #123

    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Odenat, you should really stop considering whataboutism as a valid argument. The misdeeds of another country, especially if they occured more than a century ago are no excuse for anyone to disregard mutually recognized diplomatic treaties.
    I already addressed that in my first post. These statements by Erdoğan are more of an indirect attack against CHP and the Kemalist historiographical tradition of Turkey than nationalist irredentism. He essentially implies that the Treaty of Lausanne is not the amazing success described by them, achieved thanks to the secular forces, because Turkey, as the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, still suffered huge territorial losses. Of course, he fails to mention that a proper comparison should be between the treaties of Lausanne and Sèvres, not with the pre-Word War I status of the empire. Anyway, even if we decide to solely focus on irredentism, Greece is hardly relevant. According to it, Turkey didn't recognize any territorial losses to Greece, but instead gained Izmir and Eastern Thrace. Even in what concerns the North-Aegean islands, it had been decided, following the Treaty of Athenes and before the outbreak of the World War I, by an international committee that they should belong to Greece. It's a non-issue, even if we take the president's populist ramblings at face value.

  4. #124

    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    So, Odenat, you agree with the title given by the original poster about the "prelude to war". The Lausanne treaty, as well as the exchange of populations that followed it, made sure that there would be no further conflict between Greece and Turkey. Now Turkey wishes to change that, ie return to a state of conflict. There is no fear about that (and why should Greece fear? She managed to defeat Turkey when Greece was just a bunch of rebels somewhere in Peloponisos and Turkey was a very powerful empire. Why fear now?). However, you do realize that in 2016 european nations do not solve their problems with war any longer. Turkish willingness to make belligerent statements cannot coexist with its desire to have stronger ties with the EU.
    Nor did it go unnoticed, it seems by the EU (strange how nationalists rising to power both sides of the Atlantic will, well, encourage soft EU liberals to man up )

    European lawmakers call for end to Turkey EU membership talks
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKBN13H1RK

    It seems that the more Erdo opens his mouth, the more he harms Turkey.
    Last edited by Iskar; November 23, 2016 at 04:07 AM. Reason: personal references removed

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  5. #125
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Sofia News Agency is the least reliable in the world. It is doubtfull anyone in Turkey said anything alike. Greece is least under threat from ages. And Thessaloniki is where no turk would go, the heartland of Macedonia. This is all a provokation.

  6. #126

    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Abdülmecid I, I understand your point, and I believe that Erdo definitely aims at the Kemalic establishment of Turkey, and attempts to "disassemble" the image of Kemal (which is another HUGE problem in itself for Turkey, as it could even lead to civil war), but what you say does not exclude the possibility that the OP was correct (ie a prelude to war). I think it's pretty clear to Erdo, at this point that he isn't getting any closer to the EU. Furthermore, it should be pretty clear that an independent Kurdish state cannot be avoided. Therefore, he might be "setting the path" for western expansion to make up for eastern loss. Also, he shows to the people that "it's not the EU that doesn't want us, it is we who disregard the EU". Rather juvenile way to act, IMO.

    The misdeeds of another country
    it goes without saying that I disagree with you at this point.

    Anyway, even if we decide to solely focus on irredentism, Greece is hardly relevant.
    Yet, at this point, reference to ownership of the islands concerns Greece.

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  7. #127

    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    So, Odenat, you agree with the title given by the original poster about the "prelude to war". The Lausanne treaty, as well as the exchange of populations that followed it, made sure that there would be no further conflict between Greece and Turkey. Now Turkey wishes to change that, ie return to a state of conflict. There is no fear about that (and why should Greece fear? She managed to defeat Turkey when Greece was just a bunch of rebels somewhere in Peloponisos and Turkey was a very powerful empire. Why fear now?). However, you do realize that in 2016 european nations do not solve their problems with war any longer. Turkish willingness to make belligerent statements cannot coexist with its desire to have stronger ties with the EU.
    Nor did it go unnoticed, it seems by the EU (strange how nationalists rising to power both sides of the Atlantic will, well, encourage soft EU liberals to man up )

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tu...-idUSKBN13H1RK

    It seems that the more Erdo opens his mouth, the more he harms Turkey.
    So, are you not gonna clarify your words on Turkey having a casus belli against Greece on Albania?
    Last edited by Iskar; November 23, 2016 at 04:09 AM. Reason: continuity
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  8. #128
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Wait, what? Turkey doesn't have a CB against Greece on Albania.
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  9. #129
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Erdogan speach in the Turkey Security Counsil about Losane treaty:
    In few words he syas that Turkey was been misstreaded and there are places that rightfully should belong to Turkey.
    Losane treaty is not a "holly book" and Turkey has the right to change it.
    Actually this speach is too close to Hitler's speaches of how Germany was wronged and had the right to take back what it had lost!
    You can use Google translation of the article of the Turkish site about that article.
    Speaking in Turkey's New Security Concept Conference, President Erdogan said, "Of course we appreciate all the achievements of Lausanne: Lausanne is not an unquestionable text, it is not a sacred text, of course we will discuss. We will work to have a better. We are aware of the fact that we will tread on the footsteps of many and touched the interests of many. " said.

    The headlines of President Erdoğan's speech are as follows:

    I would like to congratulate all the members of the Police Academy for the support they have given to the needs of today's Turkey by restructuring in April 2015. I am gratefully thankful to all our brothers who died during the struggle against the coup d'etat of July 15th.


    THIS TABLE IS NOT IN THE RIGHT WAY
    Beside the Gölbaşı Special Operations Center bombed on July 15, 800 students and administrators of the police academy were present. I see these brothers as veterans. I was pleased to see that my young officers and officers brothers were at the forefront of the coup d'état. This is the sign that we are on the right track. The Turkish nation will be the police of the Turkish state.

    NONE WHERE THEY DELIVERED TO THE RENTAL PENNSYLVANIA
    The doors of the academy are open to all of our sons who hold the conditions of all our citizens in our 81 state. To be loyal to the only metric country and nation to enter the academy, to serve the state of the Republic of Turkey only at any other place. There is no room for anyone who has delivered his spirit to Pennsylvania or any other illegal organization.

    THIS INSTITUTION
    We have lifted our career, relations, expectations from the mindset that holds on the nation and the state, and we will continue to lift it. This institution is the institution of the state. Muslims do not bite twice in the same hole.

    WE ARE DECEASING THE FUTURE TO CREATE A NEW LITTLE
    We are determined to create a new and bright future for ourselves, by taking lessons from past mistakes. As a police academy we have restructured with this understanding.

    BEDELIN HEAVY PAID
    Like people, the lives of the state and society are constantly changing; It develops, grows, and dies. It has a developing dynamic structure. In countries like Turkey, the heirs of the nobility of the nations are experiencing much harder. We have a state tradition over 2, 200 years. We are not cabinet, tent state. We are honored, we are proud, but some of the lovers think that you have come from within this tradition. They pay the price heavily, they continue to pay. If there are still those who are in this graveyard, they must return from the wrong side.

    HOW DO YOU GET SUCCESSFUL?
    We have over 400 years of civilization past. Our first state based in Anatolia was the Seljuk State of Turkey founded in 1075. The Ottoman Empire, Söğüt'te planted in the world's number 3 state embraces the bay. Turkey is the last state we have established with the remainder. We are the heirs of a state that has seen 22 million square kilometers of land. Unfortunately, we have reached 780 thousand square kilometers. Even the locations of your nose were taken. There were people who were successful in negotiations. How do you give your hand, how do you succeed?

    WE HAVE VERY GOOD TEXT OF BACKGROUND
    What are we, what are we, what will we be? This question is very important to us. We have to read the background of the history that makes us feel like this geographies from Ankara at flight distances for hours.

    ASIAN AMONG THE TERRORIST ORGANIZERS ...
    Turkey will continue its struggle with terrorist organizations. However, he will not bury his head in this problem and will not come around. We know better that the real purpose of terrorist organizations is to imprison ourselves. I do not think that the basic goal of FETO is to be more effective in education in the bureaucracy, do not you think that DEAS is establishing an Islamic state, do not you think that the PKK is a separate state. Another trouble. These organizations are vehicles that are released to us to focus on Turkey's internal affairs in order to ensure that other forces can apply their plans comfortably. We will do the construction on July 15th. If you keep the democracy vigil until 29 in the morning, the target behind the scenes is his prime, his witness.

    THIS VATAN WOULD STAY IN US
    In Canakkale, were we strong militiamen, powerful weapons at our disposal? What was that understanding there, young and old, they all believed in something: the witness. They knew, 'If I die here my martyr, I will be wounded if I am a loser.' What happened, this homeland left us.

    THIS STATE IS FUTURE
    You need to tell your mother, your father, whether you raised us for this motherland. Look, there is a testimony at the target of my profession, there is veteranism, the unity of this nation, the tide, the future of this state. You need to say this. If the mother and father conceive this, we see the mothers' parents who say, 'I have a second child, and this is a federation.' This profession is not a random profession, but a lot of spiritual dimension. You are powerful in this profession. I hope that you will represent a different authority in Turkey within this profession.


    DOWNLOAD FRONT OF THE SHUTTER
    At international meetings, I say "It is bigger than the world 5". Turkey, I hope, will build the great Turkey itself. What, with you. East, will it go to the southeast, there is not. We are fighting together all together. They're looking for a terrorist and a hole to escape. All of these security forces, nationwide Turkey is fighting for a whole. We will increase the self-confidence of our citizens living in this region. Now when you say 'Shutter Down', it will be an east, south-facing, with no shutters. This task is not only the duty of the soldier, the police, but also your national duty. Shutters will challenge the die. We will narrow these streets and streets to these terrorists. The trenches will open, you will tell them to sit down and eat, you will drink. This is not called patriotism or nationalism, it is called helping terrorist organization. We are the most important point right now. All of our executives, all in this last phase, will cut down the coup in the most beautiful way and finish the job.

    I do not know, I do not know
    A Westerner came today, 'Prisoners, a decision about the applications in Turkey,' he said. I said, 'Do not interfere with the domestic law of Turkey, they are so determined that they return the letter you sent, they read what they know.' Domestic law, jurisdiction independent. No one can interfere in our domestic law, we give our own shadows ourselves. They are our own business, we are our own business. Until today, those who have mixed up this country have become their own. Terrorists in different countries of Europe. The terrorist who fled Turkey, the deputies speak in Brussels. We need to walk in the future with this consciousness. We know these, we know. This is the requirement of their devotion, they do it. We will look at our work and continue to fight decisively.


    LOZAN IS NOT A DISCUSSIONAL TEXT
    What will Turkey be when it is away from Syria or other places? Will these areas be safe, secure? Ethnic and sectarian conflicts can be easily removed and natural resources can be looted much more easily. The rules laid down by the motions of the First World War did not foresee the existence of Turkey. Serv is the original role of dividing today's Turkey into 7-8 pieces. Turkey has rejected this taxation and drawn our current boundaries. The Lausanne debate is getting out of here. Of course we appreciate all the achievements in Lausanne. Lausanne is not an unquestionable text, a holy text is never. Of course we will. We will work to have better. They are still trying to imprison us on Lausanne. Nobody look up. We have our word. We will compel all conditions to reach Turkey's 2023 targets. We realize that we will step on the feet of many, and touch the interests of many. We will do it with you, we will still do it.
    We are determined to take Turkey step by step.

    WE CAN CONTINUE WITHOUT THE PLAY
    We will continue to walk to our target, even with coups, economic attacks. We will continue to give this fight at the expense of our nation that we have carried out. July 15 showed how stable your nationalism is. There is no power to stop a nation that is not afraid of death. I believe that with the will and help of Allah, the new Turkey is on the horizon. The conflicts in our region, the efforts of terrorist organizations, the economic and political attacks are indicators of our success. Young people, you enter such a process that you prepare yourself for that turning point. Azmader, patience, strengthening our unity and togetherness, we will continue to lead our way in a decisive manner, and you will soon see the light of your path. One nation, one flag, one homeland, one state.


    SOLUTIONS IN THE RISK OF THREATENING
    We create Turkey's new security concept in this framework. No matter what threat is inside or outside, we will go over it and solve it in its source. Justice does not include protection of borders. Every topic is in our new security concept. Turkey's fight against terrorism is not limited to its own territory. The struggle of Turkey is on a wide field. The struggle we carry out is not due to the fact that we are observing the lands of these countries. We entered Cerablus with the OSS, we cleared DEAŞ from El Rai. We told westerners, we told all. We called a territory in the northern hemisphere. When we started to say we entered, we sit, we talk. We were based on El Bab. We will also go to Münbic. There is PYD / YPG. Those lands are not the territory of these terrorist organizations, but the lands of the Arabs. We are not going to settle there as Turkey. Will you intervene in Rakka, let's go together. Not with YPG / PYD, what are you doing with the terrorist organization? Now we are waiting. We will be together in this matter, and we will cleanse Rakka from DEAS. We do not want to have a terror threat from our South. Mosul, Telafer and Sincar to the north of Mosul. The PKK now makes Sincar a terror zone like Kandil for himself. We will ask them to account for this. We told the coalition forces.

    WHAT WE NEED TO DO
    DEAŞ got its power from Syria, Iraq. The bases of the PKK are in Syria and Iraq. Syria and Iraq destroyed the states and we were prevented? When we interfered with Kandil, we did not see if anyone would allow it. Sincar, Talafar ... Need to be solved. Telafer is troubled for us if it is not dissolved. There were 400 thousand Turkmen, 60 of them were down. We need to take this place under control and turn our owners around. In front of the PKK, which is in a similar effort in Şengal, is it the Iraqi state that we were in danger? How can we sit comfortably in these countries where neither the PKK nor the DEAŞ can cope with the ignorance of sectarian conflict? We will do what we have to do to prevent the PKK, the DEAŞ, the sectarian conflict issue.


    THIS 3 MILLION COMES WHERE
    We will secure our Syrian border against all terrorist organizations. Those who can not prevent terrorist organizations that can not establish sovereignty in their own country hurt us have no right to criticize Turkey. Syria and Iraq For Turkey, the energy issue, the expansion of the political sphere, the arbitrary issue is not at all. This is our retirement issue. We have no way of reaching the 2023 targets without resolving Iraq and Syria. At the same time this is a matter of fraternity. Where did these 3 million come from?

    WE CAN NOT LOSE YOUR BONE
    How can you feel secure when you have a fire on your side? We have our backs for our own interests. Our place is with the oppressed and the victim. We can not bite the bones of our ancestors. We have to observe active policy in Syria and Iraq.

    THERE ARE THESE HAUTS IN THE STATE OF THE FARM
    December 17-25 police saw the benefit of the measures we took after the judicial coup attempt on July 15th. If we had not taken those precautions, we had a much more bloody, much more dangerous night on July 15th. Today, instead of 248 martyrs, maybe 248 thousand, maybe 2.5 million would be a martyr. We know that the state has not been completely cleared of this treacherous network. You still got it in the police, the army, the government agencies. I say that you are a responsible President. Because this country, our nation is ours. What country to feed, nor the nation to trample. Because the ecdad did not transfer us a country in their mentalites. He says, 'He's closer to us than his body'. Look at that. This statement is so dangerous that our Lord comes in the Qur'an. No power other than that can be closer to us in the car. This is a curse, this is a saint.
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  10. #130
    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    Nice, Odenat, let's go back to 19th-early 20th century nationalism again. That turned out great, last time. How about this: nationalism is a dangerous ideology, states have no right to intervene in order to protect those they consider "their own people" (Russia anyone?), and let the people decide if they want to be part of a state or not.
    Really? Funny that Europeans did exactly that for the last 300 years. And please tell me, what are Western armies are doing at Afghanistan,Libya, Iraq and so many other countries? You will say they are protecting themselves against terrorism, well, that is a nice pretext. We Turkish can certainly use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrotatos View Post
    At that point there were more Greeks living outside of Greece than in.

    And these borders changed with war. So in other words you support war against Greece and 19th century nationalism. Please keep posting, not that I am personally surprised but it is good for others to read this.
    Now please tell me. If Greece was powerful and Turkey was weak, would you say the same things? Was the Greeks who were massacring Turkish at 1974's Cyprus were saying those words? Was Greek fleet that fortified around Kardak island said those words at 1996? If Greeks was powerful and we were weak, you would go for Istanbul and İzmir, you would never speak about how 19th century nationalism is bad. Because, when Greeks were breaching those treaties, it is because Greeks want to liberate their "lands", they have a right to do it, isn't it?
    Last edited by Tiberios; November 23, 2016 at 09:45 AM. Reason: ToS violation removed

  11. #131
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Really? Funny that Europeans did exactly that for the last 300 years. And please tell me, what are Western armies are doing at Afghanistan,Libya, Iraq and so many other countries? You will say they are protecting themselves against terrorism, well, that is a nice pretext. We Turkish can certainly use it.



    Now please tell me. If Greece was powerful and Turkey was weak, would you say the same things? Was the Greeks who were massacring Turkish at 1974's Cyprus were saying those words? Was Greek fleet that fortified around Kardak island said those words at 1996? If Greeks was powerful and we were weak, you would go for Istanbul and İzmir, you would never speak about how 19th century nationalism is bad. Because, when Greeks were breaching those treaties, it is because Greeks want to liberate their "lands", they have a right to do it, isn't it?
    So Odenat , everything is about power. Turkey now its powerfull enough has the right to start wars to re-claim former territories that belonged to Ottoman Empire.
    So far so good...That is the idea behind all wars in the humman history. But tell me..IF in a future war you will die, will your parents have the same idea about Turkey's right to start wars that you have today?
    Hitler started a WW because Germans thought that he was right when he talked about Germany's right to become great power again. Do you think that those millions of Germans that died back then would have the same idea today? If it all about power then you would not feel threat if a number of states would claim Turkey's lands.
    Kurds live 5000 years where you live for less than 500, Syrians live longer in that lands too... About Kardak islands.
    IF you read the Greek-Italian treaty of the 1947 you will nottice that those islands were under Italian rule and given to Greece.
    They were NOT Turkish land that occupied. Remember that IF they would be Turkish Kemal would protest. But Kemal honored his signatures. I guess that Kemal was a traitor in your eyes, wasn't he?
    If all is about power, how would you feel if USA would claim Kurdish lands from Turkey and Russia would claim Assyrian lands for Syria?
    Would you accept that desision?
    Last edited by Tiberios; November 23, 2016 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Continuity
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  12. #132
    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Really? Funny that Europeans did exactly that for the last 300 years. And please tell me, what are Western armies are doing at Afghanistan,Libya, Iraq and so many other countries? You will say they are protecting themselves against terrorism, well, that is a nice pretext. We Turkish can certainly use it.



    Now please tell me. If Greece was powerful and Turkey was weak, would you say the same things? Was the Greeks who were massacring Turkish at 1974's Cyprus were saying those words? Was Greek fleet that fortified around Kardak island said those words at 1996? If Greeks was powerful and we were weak, you would go for Istanbul and İzmir, you would never speak about how 19th century nationalism is bad. Because, when Greeks were breaching those treaties, it is because Greeks want to liberate their "lands", they have a right to do it, isn't it? Now, if Turkey is powerful and want to breach the treaty, it's because we are evil. But actualy, we want to liberate our historical lands too. You know, Turkish lived at Balkans much longer than Americans lived at America!

    Well, let's forget about 19th century nationalism then. Now tell me, my Greek friends, when will you build mosques at Athens so that Muslim minority can pray? Will you recognise Macedonia as Macedonia? What about Turkish minority living at Western Thracia? They are speaking Turkish and say that they are Turkish. Will you recognize these people as Turkish minority? Come on! Let's forget 19th century nationalism.
    The fact that European nations have been gun-ho imperialists doesn't mean Turkey should follow that path.

  13. #133
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    Well, let's forget about 19th century nationalism then. Now tell me, my Greek friends, when will you build mosques at Athens so that Muslim minority can pray? Will you recognise Macedonia as Macedonia? What about Turkish minority living at Western Thracia? They are speaking Turkish and say that they are Turkish. Will you recognize these people as Turkish minority? Come on! Let's forget 19th century nationalism.
    Why should the country pay for a non-state religion building? Let the Turks pay for it. But nope, we are actually building one. I disagree with it, but I don't think it's expensive so I don't care that much. And truth be told, a few millions wasted aside, there are tons of muslims in Athens. Forget the less than 500 Turks. There are hundreds of thousands of LEGAL immigrant muslims. Sure, it would be better if they paid for the mosque, but one had to be built.

    FYROM name dispute has nothing to do with Turkey.

    Most of the Turkish speakers in Thrace say they are NOT Turkish.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    If all is about power, how would you feel if USA would claim Kurdish lands from Turkey and Russia would claim Assyrian lands for Syria?
    Would you accept that desision?
    Weeeeeell... the part about USA and the Kurdish lands seems more and more probable...
    Last edited by alhoon; November 23, 2016 at 08:38 AM.
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  14. #134
    Tiberios's Avatar Le Paysan Soleil
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    I would like to remind everyone to stay on topic and refrain from making this personal in any way. This includes refraining from using "you" or "your country/side" when refering to Greece and Turkey as mentioned in the earlier thread warning.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Why should the country pay for a non-state religion building? Let the Turks pay for it. But nope, we are actually building one. I disagree with it, but I don't think it's expensive so I don't care that much. And truth be told, a few millions wasted aside, there are tons of muslims in Athens. Forget the less than 500 Turks. There are hundreds of thousands of LEGAL immigrant muslims. Sure, it would be better if they paid for the mosque, but one had to be built.

    FYROM name dispute has nothing to do with Turkey.

    Most of the Turkish speakers in Thrace say they are NOT Turkish.



    Weeeeeell... the part about USA and the Kurdish lands seems more and more probable...
    Yeah they identify themselves as "Greek Muslims" right?

  16. #136
    Odenat's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Most of the Turkish speakers in Thrace say they are NOT Turkish.
    And Human Rights Watch says that denial of ethnic identity is a human rights crime by Greece. And they totally disagree with you;

    "While it is indeed true that the minority is mixed on an ethnolinguistic basis, being made up of ethnic Turks, Pomaks (Muslim Slavs who speak a Bulgarian dialect), and Romas, the group overwhelmingly identifies itself as Turkish."

    I also learned that Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word Turkish to depict the minority living at Western Thracia! What kind of democracy is Greece? Can you imagine what EU will say if Turkey does the same to Kurdish minority? It seems Greeks are allowed to do anything they want by EU.

    https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm
    Last edited by Odenat; November 24, 2016 at 04:01 AM.

  17. #137
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Hm, i think that comparing democracy in Greece and Turkey is rather a ludicrous idea. Turkey just is not a democracy, fullstop..
    Last edited by Iskar; November 24, 2016 at 05:03 AM. Reason: personal references removed
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  18. #138
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    That is quite enough of the personal references. Just two posts above Tiberios explicitly reminded you of the rule not to make arguments personal and yet it seems to be difficult to stick to this. If this thread continues its way down to Mutually Applied Defamation (MAD) we may see ourselves forced to close this little cold internet war.

    Let me make this clear once more: By addressing another poster with "you/your country" instead of naming that country neutrally you make a personal reference to the other poster's nationality, which is always off-topic in a discussion.

    If you cannot distance yourself from your or others' nationalities for the sake of an argument, then you should refrain from posting until you see yourself able to exercise said mental discipline.

    Thank you for your cooperation.
    Last edited by Iskar; November 24, 2016 at 05:15 AM.
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  19. #139

    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Wait, what? Turkey doesn't have a CB against Greece on Albania.
    When did it ever have one?


    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Erdogan speach in the Turkey Security Counsil about Losane treaty:
    In few words he syas that Turkey was been misstreaded and there are places that rightfully should belong to Turkey.
    Losane treaty is not a "holly book" and Turkey has the right to change it.
    Actually this speach is too close to Hitler's speaches of how Germany was wronged and had the right to take back what it had lost!
    You can use Google translation of the article of the Turkish site about that article.
    Why don't you highlight the exact parts of his speech where he says that there are regions that rightfully belong to Turkey and that Turkey has a right to change the Lausanne treaty?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; November 25, 2016 at 07:38 AM.
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  20. #140
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Erdogan's prelude to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    Yeah they identify themselves as "Greek Muslims" right?
    Pomaks mostly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Odenat View Post
    And Human Rights Watch says that denial of ethnic identity is a human rights crime by Greece. And they totally disagree with you;

    "While it is indeed true that the minority is mixed on an ethnolinguistic basis, being made up of ethnic Turks, Pomaks (Muslim Slavs who speak a Bulgarian dialect), and Romas, the group overwhelmingly identifies itself as Turkish."

    I also learned that Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word Turkish to depict the minority living at Western Thracia! What kind of democracy is Greece? Can you imagine what EU will say if Turkey does the same to Kurdish minority? It seems Greeks are allowed to do anything they want by EU.

    https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm
    That's news to me, I'll check that report since it's quite old. And how can courts outlaw the use of the word Turkish to depict the minority in Thrace?
    Greeks of Athens and other places call them Turks all the time, and they angrily respond they are not. They find it insulting. There was a big issue about that in the late 90s, with school buses of Thrace's Turks Turkic speaking muslim Greeks, coming to Athens and making a fuss that they are not Turks and we should not turn our backs to them. And then the right-wings of Greece rightfully made a big fuss about alienating a group of people and letting Turkey spread propaganda with the satellite dishes and the Imams they were sending.

    The way Greece has treated these people, as Turks when they tried to keep their Greek roots, is indeed shameful. Greek teachers in the Pomak lands and Turkish Turkic speaking muslim villages actually take looong vacations, are very often "sick" and do everything in their power to leave. We're still, in 2016, gathering used books from elementary schools in the rest of Greece to send to Turks Turkic speaking muslim Greeks of Thrace, because the state doesn't send them any! The Greek church is notably absent in those places, letting the Turkish appointed Imams establish mini-theocracies. One such Imam forbid any local Turk Turkic speaking muslim Greek kid in his area to take part in the charity-funded 2-day trip in Athens and Greece did nothing about him.
    And the contrast, with the Turkic teachers and the muslim imams is very pronounced.

    So... I'm quite surprised that Greek courts even took notice of those people enough to oppress them.

    Frankly, I am ashamed to admit it but when I think of Pomaks or the Turkic speaking muslims of Thrace, my first thought is "Turk" even while every one of them has corrected me, offended. I try to stop it, but I still do it.
    And I doubt a court ruling will change my gut reaction.

    A fellow general said to my grandfather that frankly, in the 60s Greece didn't think we would hold onto Thrace for that long. Once Turkey and Greece were both in NATO, and the souring of the American-Greek relations, we thought Turkey would invade "within 10-15 years" and with their larger army, Turks would take Thrace from Greece.
    And that's what Greece still thinks to a large part, despite waiting for that war for 50 years already and shifting from "We will loose Thrace" to "We will lose parts of the Aegean".
    Last edited by alhoon; November 24, 2016 at 10:32 PM.
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