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Thread: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Hello,
    I'm working on my submod (link is here) and I need a piece of information on Greek terminology. Therefore I would like to ask the following question:

    What were the Greek words used in the Middle Ages for young men achieving certain levels of education, more-or-less equivalent of the Western Education in Latin:
    Basic Administrative Education: Licentiate
    Standard Administrative Education: Baccalaureus Artium
    Advanced Administrative Education: Doctor Philosophiae

    I understand the differences, the fact that there're no universities etc. etc., but more-or-less pls.
    cheers in advance
    JoC
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods for the SSHIP: Generals Traits, Provincial Titles, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    I am really not sure.
    From what I understand, in greek what you are asking for is this:

    basic education: apophoitos
    standard education: teleiophoitos
    advanced education: didaktoras

    But I do not know if the Byzantines were using the same names. There were names for some phases of education, but I doubt it's what you want:

    learning to read and write: grammatistes
    study of classic literature and the greek language: grammatikos
    learning the rhetoric skill of the ancient rhetores: rhetor
    study of ancient philosophy: philosophos

    Leading Professor of University: Hypatos ton Philosophon
    "There is nothing more conductive to the destruction of a nation, whether it be republic or monarchy, than the lack of men of wisdom or intellect."
    -John VI Kantakouzenos, Roman Emperor

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Hi Bardas Phokas,
    thanks for your information, I might use it in my submod . Just to make it clear (as I was unable to find it for the moment on the internet): the three names of the levels (apophoitos, teleiophoitos, didaktoras) are in the current (modern) terminology, or in the medieval terminology? For the latin words are indeed from the medieval times, even if they're in use today, with different meanings in different countries. I'm actually looking for the medieval ones. The descriptions in-game are currently as follows - I obviously want do change the greek ones to reflect greek, not latin reality:

    Code:
    {Basic_Western_Ed_desc}He has spent some time at school, read Holy Bible and was told many things by the teachers. He can now manage the provinces better.
    {Basic_Western_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +2% trade, +1 law, +1 Piety, bonus on siege equipment build
    {Basic_Western_Ed}Licentiate
    
    {Basic_Greek_Ed_desc}He has studied at a school and grasped an understanding of liberal arts.
    {Basic_Greek_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +2% trade, +1 law, small bonus on siege equipment build
    {Basic_Greek_Ed}Basic Orthodox Education
    
    
    {Standard_Western_Ed_desc}He has studied at university the liberal arts: arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music theory, grammar, logic, and rhetoric. He sees the world differently now and is more efficient at 
    managing economy, even if he is slightly less loyal to his ruler.
    {Standard_Western_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +5% trade, +5% mining, -10% construction, -1 squalor, +1 law, +1 Piety, -1 Loyalty, small bonus on siege equipment
    {Standard_Western_Ed}Baccalaureus Artium
    
    {Standard_Greek_Ed_desc}Has studied at a university and gained an understanding of the liberal arts, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music theory, grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
    {Standard_Greek_Ed_effects_desc}+5 siege equipment build points, 5% bonus on all trade income, 5% bonus on tax income, 5% decrease in construction costs, 5% bonus on mining income, +1 to law (improves public order)
    {Standard_Greek_Ed}Bachelor of Arts
    
    {Advanced_Western_Ed_desc}He has spent may years studying at university, listening to the professors and sitting at the library. In addition to the artes liberales he gained knowledge of law, medicine and theology. It makes him a brilliant, pious governor, but he looks down on his superiors.
    {Advanced_Western_Ed_effects_desc}+10% tax, +10% trade, +10% mining, -10% construction, +2 law, -2 squalor, +2 Piety, -2 Loyalty, healing of the wounded at battlefield, bonus on siege equipment
    {Advanced_Western_Ed}Doctor Philosophiae
    
    {Advanced_Greek_Ed_desc}Has spent may years studying at a Studium Generale to obtain a master's degree, gaining a knowledge of law, medicine and philosophy.
    {Advanced_Greek_Ed_effects_desc}+1 Piety, +5 siege equipment build points, 10% bonus on all trade income, 5% bonus on tax income, 10% decrease in construction costs, 5% bonus on mining income, +2 to law (improves public order), increased battlefield casualties recovery chances
    {Advanced_Greek_Ed}Master's Degree
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; November 05, 2016 at 01:00 AM.
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods for the SSHIP: Generals Traits, Provincial Titles, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    The terms are used today in Greece, but in themselves they are archaic so they may fit. I do not know though if they were used by the byzantines though so you may want to go for grammatikos rhetor and philosophos instead.
    "There is nothing more conductive to the destruction of a nation, whether it be republic or monarchy, than the lack of men of wisdom or intellect."
    -John VI Kantakouzenos, Roman Emperor

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Thanks, Bardas Phokas. I'll probably need to look for sources and explore this topic more. If you're aware of any, pleased send me a link. cheers! JoC
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods for the SSHIP: Generals Traits, Provincial Titles, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

  6. #6
    SpyrosM91's Avatar Despotes
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    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Well, to pitch in a little bit...

    Since the byzies, never had that kind of academic level system... and since the primary sources are pretty rare.... we can only speculate....

    for the 2nd level you can put: Maistor (Μαΐστωρ)... comes from lat. Magister (eng. Master...).. maistores were called the proffesors at the university of constantinople, and at other higher education schools in Byzantium....
    for the 3rd level you can put: Didaskalos (Διδάσκαλος)... it means professor... another title used by the professors of the university....

    as for the simple graduates (1st level), i don't know of any particular name... the students were called (in plural) foitetai (φοιτηταί) or spoudastai (σπουδασταί)... you can put sth like Apofoitos (Απόφοιτος).... which is used modern greek, and it has the same base-word with "foitetes" (φοιτητής) (in sigular)... which is the verb "φοιτω" (foito=study)



    names for professors (in plural): «μάγιστροι» or «μαγίστορες» or «μαΐστορες» or «διδάσκαλοι»
    names for assistant professors (plural): ὑπογραμματεῖς


    At the university of Constantinople there were 2 shools: the school of philosophy, and the school of law:

    the Dean of philosophy was called by many names:
    «Ὑπατος» (Consul) or
    «Ὑπατος τῶν Φιλοσόφων» (Consul) or
    «Ὑπέρτιμος τῶν Φιλοσόφων» (Consul of the Philosophers) or
    «Μέγας Φιλόσοφος» (Great Philosopher) or
    «Προστάτης τῆς Φιλοσόφου Σχολῆς» (Protector of the School of Philosophy) or
    «Μέγας Διδάσκαλος» (Great Professor) or
    «Διδάσκαλος τῶν Διδασκάλων» (Professor of Professors) or
    «Οἰκουμενικός» (Ecumenic (=Global) [Philosopher]) or
    «Καθολικὸς Διδάσκαλος» (Catholic(=Global) Professor) or
    «Ἀρχιδιδάσκαλος» (Chief Professor) .

    the dean of law was called:
    «Νομοφύλαξ» (Protector of Laws)
    Proud Tsardoms Total War: Historian - Coder - Scripter - Mapper

  7. #7
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Thanks Spyros! Very, very valuable. I've already included it into my submod.
    Could you comment (and maybe propose alternative text?) on the current descriptions (well, not changed yet, so pretty latin):

    Code:
    {Basic_Eastern_Ed_desc}He has learnt at a maktab school and learnt Qu'aran by heart, getting pious but also grasping the basic ideas of management.
    {Basic_Eastern_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +1 Piety, +1 popularity, small bonus on siege equipment build
    {Basic_Eastern_Ed}Hafiz
    {Basic_Greek_Ed_desc}He has studied at a school and grasped an understanding of liberal arts.
    {Basic_Greek_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +2% trade, +1 law, small bonus on siege equipment build
    {Basic_Greek_Ed}Apophoitos
    {Basic_Military_Ed_desc}He has served as a squire and gained a basic understanding of military matters.
    {Basic_Military_Ed_effects_desc}+2 to movement points (increases movement range)
    {Basic_Military_Ed}Trained Soldier
    {Basic_Pagan_Ed_desc}This person has served as a warrior and gained a basic understanding of Pagan matters.
    {Basic_Pagan_Ed_effects_desc}+2 to movement points (increases movement range), +1 to sight range
    {Basic_Pagan_Ed}Basic Pagan Education
    {Basic_Western_Ed_desc}He has spent some time at school, read Holy Bible and was told many things by the teachers. He can now manage the provinces better.
    {Basic_Western_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +2% trade, +1 law, +1 Piety, bonus on siege equipment build
    {Basic_Western_Ed}Licentiate
    
    {Standard_Eastern_Ed_desc}He has studied ijtihad at a madhhab school and gained an understanding of both secular and religious matters, following what the Prophet said: "Attainment of knowledge is a must for every muslim." He is an outstanding jurist who can manage efficiently the provinces, even if he can be at times defiant to the rulers.
    {Standard_Eastern_Ed_effects_desc}5% bonus on tax income, 1% bonus on trade income, 5% bonus on mining income, 5% decrease in construction costs, +2 farming output, +2 Piety, -1 Loyalty, +1 to popularity (improves public order), +1 law (improves public order and lowers corruption), +5 siege equipment build points
    {Standard_Eastern_Ed}Faqih
    {Standard_Greek_Ed_desc}Has studied at a university and gained an understanding of the liberal arts, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music theory, grammar, logic, and rhetoric.
    {Standard_Greek_Ed_effects_desc}+5 siege equipment build points, 5% bonus on all trade income, 5% bonus on tax income, 5% decrease in construction costs, 5% bonus on mining income, +1 to law (improves public order)
    {Standard_Greek_Ed}Maistor
    {Standard_Military_Ed_desc}He has gained a firm understanding of military matters and can command his soldiers better. He also has gained more confidence in his superiors.
    {Standard_Military_Ed_effects_desc}+1 Command, +4 to movement points (increases movement range), +5 siege equipment build points, +1 Loyalty
    {Standard_Military_Ed}Trained Officer
    {Standard_Pagan_Ed_desc}This person has been gained a firm understanding of Pagan military matters.
    {Standard_Pagan_Ed_effects_desc}+1 Command, +1 Loyalty, +1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, +5 to movement points (increases movement range), +1 to sight range, +1 Command when ambushing
    {Standard_Pagan_Ed}Standard Pagan Education
    {Standard_Western_Ed_desc}He has studied at university the liberal arts: arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music theory, grammar, logic, and rhetoric. He sees the world differently now and is more efficient at managing economy, even if he is slightly less loyal to his ruler.
    {Standard_Western_Ed_effects_desc}+5% tax, +5% trade, +5% mining, -10% construction, -1 squalor, +1 law, +1 Piety, -1 Loyalty, small bonus on siege equipment
    {Standard_Western_Ed}Baccalaureus Artium
    
    {Advanced_Eastern_Ed_desc}After years of studying at madhāhib and elsewhere has was granted the "ijāzah al-tadrīs wa al-iftā'"("license to teach and issue legal opinions"). During these years he gained in-depth understanding of both secular and religious matters. He is a master jurist who can manage efficiently the provinces, but his obsession with  jurisprudence leads him to be very defiant to the rulers.
    {Advanced_Eastern_Ed_effects_desc}10% bonus on tax income, 5% bonus on trade income, 10% bonus on mining income, 10% decrease in construction costs, +3 farming output, +3 Piety, -2 Loyalty, +1 to popularity (improves public order), +2 law (improves public order and lowers corruption), +5 siege equipment build points
    {Advanced_Eastern_Ed}Mujtahid
    {Advanced_Greek_Ed_desc}Has spent may years studying at a Studium Generale to obtain a master's degree, gaining a knowledge of law, medicine and philosophy.
    {Advanced_Greek_Ed_effects_desc}+1 Piety, +5 siege equipment build points, 10% bonus on all trade income, 5% bonus on tax income, 10% decrease in construction costs, 5% bonus on mining income, +2 to law (improves public order), increased battlefield casualties recovery chances
    {Advanced_Greek_Ed}Didaskalos
    {Advanced_Military_Ed_desc}He has received advanced training on military tactics and strategy. He can now lead the armies in a professional way.
    {Advanced_Military_Ed_effects_desc}+2 Command, +1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, +6 to movement points (increases movement range), +1 to sight range, +1 Command when ambushing, +10 siege equipment build points, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to general's hit points
    {Advanced_Military_Ed}Trained General
    {Advanced_Pagan_Ed_desc}This person has received advanced training on Pagan tactics and strategy.
    {Advanced_Pagan_Ed_effects_desc}+2 Command, +1 Loyalty, +1 Morale for all troops on the battlefield, +8 to movement points (increases movement range), +2 to sight range, +2 Command when ambushing, 5% bonus on tax income, +1 to law (improves public order)
    {Advanced_Pagan_Ed}Advanced Pagan Education
    {Advanced_Western_Ed_desc}He has spent may years studying at university, listening to the professors and sitting at the library. In addition to the artes liberales he gained knowledge of law, medicine and theology. It makes him a brilliant, pious governor, but he looks down on his superiors.
    {Advanced_Western_Ed_effects_desc}+10% tax, +10% trade, +10% mining, -10% construction, +2 law, -2 squalor, +2 Piety, -2 Loyalty, healing of the wounded at battlefield, bonus on siege equipment
    {Advanced_Western_Ed}Doctor Philosophiae
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods for the SSHIP: Generals Traits, Provincial Titles, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

  8. #8
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Very cool submod Jurand, when you finish it and when we have a working version of the mod would we be able to use this system as well?

  9. #9
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Byzantine education names - a reqest for simple information

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Very cool submod Jurand, when you finish it and when we have a working version of the mod would we be able to use this system as well?
    Hi Wallachian,
    first of all - I'd very much like the Tsardoms team finishes the mod! I'm following its development for several years now, I've looked in details at the pics you've shown us, I was sad when at some point it was in hiatus, and I was happy when you decided to continue. The area and period of history interest me much. So keep on working on this, even if it's usually difficult to judge what is "historical" due to different education (and much emotions) of the modders coming from different nationalities or countries.

    Now to your question: of course no problem from my side, I'd be happy if you use it.

    Before impementing it you should consider the follwing (I think):
    - unless you'd started from the SS, your mod probably doesn't contain definitions and links between the files on several traits used in Stainless Steel (eg. Wantschool, MilitaryInclination, InspiringTeacher). So you'd need to create them. As far as the buildings are concerned, I'd worry less - you may have dead triggers (ie to the buildings which do not exist) and the system would work fine.
    - your mod is probably 4TPY, so the percentages will have to be adjusted.
    - Greek and Ottoman education worked differently than the StainlessSteel foresees (no universities, only private teachers in the Greek, perhaps pecular system for the Ottomans) so the historical thinking behind my submod might be really wrong in the Tsardoms context. Admittedly, it's already wrong in SSHIP, but I don't think it's possible to craft any better universal system. You'd have to make educational system for each religion or even for each country - I don't have time for making PhD in the Muslim or Greek educational system and I'f prefer making other minimods, and I want to play the game.
    - the interplay with other triggers is important. The education in my minimod is possbile to be lost (in the old age, or from a severe wound), and it also influences other traits (eg. it' in the trigger for SeverlyWounded). Military and Administrative inclinations are really important in many triggers I create in the other minimods.
    - what leads me to another thought: have a look at my other minimod: GTCS - Generals' Traits' Common Sense fix. I'm modding there mostly vanilla traits which may be still in our EDCT. They are for SSHIP, but I believe they're compatible with SS6.4, and should be relatively easy to implement in the other mods. In the thread you can find detailed descriptions for every traits I change so only some may be picked for mplementation. I"ve already been contacted by another modder to analyse possibilities for it's implementation and I see much opportunites.
    So check it and keep modding
    JoC
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; November 13, 2016 at 12:46 AM.
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try either the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project + minimods,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine submod.
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods for the SSHIP: Generals Traits, Provincial Titles, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

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