Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Denmark

[warman222]

Sly, why are you talking like that? XD

In all seriousness, I do agree with the first point but aside from that it looks much better than before. Kudos.

[FuzFuzFuz]

- Updated the screenshots (yes, again)

- Changed some stuff to please Slytacular's eyes'

- Added a couple more units (Herremaends, Gotland units)

[finix]

They look very nice Fuz, good job!

[LEG-IV]

Ummm, guys i've noticed that the crown on the head of the Dane king, in the picture with title: "Konungr Valdemar the Victorious" is a bit huuuuuge for his head.
Can't you do something about it?
I mean ok it's not that bad, but when it comes to the details it kinda looks...i dunno...funny???

[warman222]

Well done Fuz. Minor naming critique, you can name the riddere units the same name between tiers. Because you separated the units by tier it goes without saying the riddere of tier 2 is the later version of the tier 1 unit. Look at some of the other preview like Sicily's or HREs for reference.

[FuzFuzFuz]

- Added a couple of units to tier 1 & tier 2.

- Added 2 Hospitaller units.

[Dom1no]

Love it <3

[Slytacular]

Hospitallers should be borrowed from Fawn since he already made those units. We don't want to keep making multiple variations of the same unit.

[FuzFuzFuz]

Hospitallers should be borrowed from Fawn since he already made those units. We don't want to keep making multiple variations of the same unit.

His Hospitaller Knight unit have turbans and doesnt have nearly enough red

[You_Guess_Who]

His Hospitaller Knight unit have turbans and doesnt have nearly enough red

Just create a new faction-dependant unit variant without turbans for northern european factions - no need to recreate the same unit, using new variants would suffice.

[Kjertesvein]

A continuation of the discussion with Rasmussen from post #46, with focus on a couple of suggestions for the 1400s.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Firstly, my reply to what he wrote, see post # 46.

Thanks.

"Styrismen would make up Medium Cavalry with also could be used a Mounted Cavalrymen."

The redundancy makes me assume you've referred to Mounted Crossbowmen or Mounted Infantry (mobile infantry). I'm not sure.

For the 15th century, do you have suggestions as to where to go for information? I have collected over 900 15th century Scandinavian images of various artwork which depict arms and armour, and I see certain things which is "northern European" in style that I'm looking for. The visual sources there, somewhat, but I struggle to find a good structure or framework for the 15th century. http://imgur.com/a/irD6D

Mercenaries, Hanseatic League has a role and I guess various elements of gunpowder, but I struggle to find 15th century sources (either primary or secondary), which describes much the same as what you've described for the 13th century. Arms and armour requirements, terms used at the time, etc. is what I'm looking for.

Instead of the placeholder names in the link below, would soldiers still be referred to as 'Styrsmen' and 'Bondir', or was there other terms for the basic infantry, medium cavalry, etc. at that time?
http://imgur.com/a/wLbpY

Would Norwegian sailors/soldiers contribute to a Danish army during the 15th century? In what form and what would they be called? I assume most contemporary Swedes would "lightly decline the offer", he he.

Thanks for any information.

~Kjertesvein

His recent reply a few days ago:

Hi Wille k

Sorry I didn't see you mail at all before now and wasn't notified about it.

What I meant that the cavalry could have been used for shock attacks (charging mailed warriors, but likely not any significant horse armour, so that's why I wrote medium cavalry) and as purely mounted crossbowmen.
You are correct that a roll as mobile infantry certainly is also possible, yet from the 1200's Danes were good at fighting from horseback and no longer seemed to prefer the moble infantry style they used in the viking age.

I haven't looked so much into the 1400's as I am definitely not an armour expert, but on my amoury I have made some threads about special Scandinavian weapons. The Pretzel swords seems to be around 1500, but in the 15th century you probably have something like the Boringhholm sword style still around. from early 1400 to early 1500.
See: https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=32093
See: https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic...r=asc&start=20

The struggle between the Hanseatic League and Denmark is really long and hard.
In the 1400 century the Hanseatic league gets the upper hand, but Maargrethe the I did make a sort of Kalmer Union fleet distribruted among the nobles to defend shipping against the Hansa.
It was during King Hans that the professional Dano-Norwegian fleet was created in 1509. The Swedes was still in the Kalmer Union but probably deemed to unreliable. They had their headquarters at Bremerholm in Copenhagen.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Danish_Navy

I think this early by far most of the sailors are Danes, but with time (1700's) the Norwegians are probably at least 50% of the personel and probably even the majority.
While the command language of the Danish army was German, because it was mostly lead by noble officers from Holsten, then the command language of the Dano-Norwegian Fleet was Danish.
Norwegians had their own defensive army and wasn't recruited into the Danish army. Basically in this time period the Danes used mostly mercenaries and individual nobles then supplied own troops.
The Swedes seems to have still fielded their own peasant armies in the 15th century lead by nobles.
Look at Paul Dolstein's drawings - a german landsknecht in the service of the Danish king fighting the Swedes rebelling.
See: https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11100


Lucky for the Norwegians to be able to field their own army as later (1700's) for offences in the Danish army you could be sold to slavery in the west indies and many officers used that trick just to make up offences as they made good money on each batch -> you were recruited as a Danish farmer and off course couldn't speak any German, then an officer shouted an order at you and since you didn't obey it when not understanding it, you could be disciplined (tortured), beaten to death or sold into slavery if the officer wished so).

About the word Bondir - it basically means "free farmer". English Husbond is a direct loan from Danish Hus-bonde.
So a free farmer called to "Leding" by the King with be called Bonde (old Danish Bondæ, plural Bondær), but Bondir is Old Icelandic that was never spoken in Sweden nor Denmark (they are east-nordic languages, whereas Icelandic is west-nordic). So Bondir/Bondær whether it is west-nordic or east-nordic units.

So the Styrismen would fit the image of a mounted crossbowman I think.
The leding soldiers (Bondær) came from territories that provided the army for them (they didn't pay for them themselves), so they would have armour, kettle helmet, sword (axe in Norway even into 1700's) and spear (helbard).
Again when we come to around 1400 Denmark would mostly use hired landsknects.

The Danish and especially Norwegian & Swedish (bondær) would probably be best as "Regular infantry" or helbardiers image and the "Landsknechts" would be Pikemen.
Nobles would constitute Knight (nobles would have to pay themselves for the equipment, so it would vary according to wealth).

Cheers
Niels

What this boils down to for me are:

• The weapons of the 15th century, i.e. the 2x two handed swords Pretzel swords of the late 15th century and Boringhold swords used during the whole 15th century. In my experience, the former sword guard look quite unique.
• An anti-Hansa fleet headed by Danish nobles, maybe some Norwegians, but probably no significant portions of Swedes.
• I'm not allowed to suggest any name changes by Fuz, but they're there none the less. lol

~Wille

[uzo70]

This is a big post and took alot longer to write than i expected and the sun is starting to rise outside, so i am sorry for any spelling mistakes and poorly formulated sentences.
I hope you can use some of this info to help with the depiction of medieval Danish troops.


I would like to ask, would it not be better to call the Huskarle for Hirdmænd or even Lagmænd(Vederlagsmænd) "hird" or "Lagmænd" seems to be much more commonly used to refer to them in Denmark, while Huskarl is much more prevalent in England.
At the same time also remove the high and late version of it as the concept of "hird" as far as i have read completey gone by 1300. It seems to have started with the early 13th century, where the word Hærmand according to Sven Ågesøn seems to be new, the word Hærmand didn't just include the Hird of the king, but all the ones under other nobility and bishops, to then transition into the later Herremand, which seems to have merged with the older Stormænd class or just underneath it and be in full effect by 1300.

Hirdmand appears in the Jysdke lov as well as Hærmand, which seems weird unless Hærmand is in the old meaning of just any member of the army (Hæren). The law is from 1241.

Also from Vederloven, on "Vanding af hesten" og "Fodring af hesten" (Watering/Feeding of the Horse) would show that the Hird would be mounted when traversing the land, so i guess it wouldn't be unlikely for them to at certain scenarios stay saddled in combat, that could perhaps be a unit of Medium to Heavy cavalry?
There is a couple of early paintings that speculated to be Hirdmænd in mounted combat.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This one is from the great album Kjertesvein found on Danish medieval alter-boards
I've seen it dated anywhere between 1100-1200




This cavalry battle at Aal kirke from around 1200


This one is from Hornslet Kirke and is dated around 1225.

To replace the Hirdmænd/Huskarle was historically the Herremænd, which is already in the mod as a mounted knightly unit, that "could" be seen as the Knighted Herremænd and then as the new heavy infantry could be the Herremænd that was not knighted who would be know as "Væbner" who would as the Hirdmænd still be the infantry with the most expensive and well made armour in the army (beside the Stormænd).
From what i have read, though it happens to be someone commenting on Sven Ågesøn and Saxo Grammaticus commenting on the weapons of the Hird. Talking about it getting competitive in owning weapons especially Swords and Axes engraved with fine metals and composed into beautiful patterns and inscription by the leading goldsmiths.

On that note i do really want to see the 2 beautiful shaft ingraved axes the Norwegian Bondir and Hirdmen use to be replace the bland ones the Danish "Huskarle(early)/Hirdmænd" use, to somewhat depict this "competitiveness" to have best looking weapon, even if it isn't direct ingraving into the metal.
Pictures of the 2 axes in qustion:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A wish i guess i have is, to have a unit with Hirdmænd/Huskarle with 2 handed axes and even more would be high period as some finds suggest it was use to some extent into later periods until it was replaced by things like Poleaxes. but to atleast to have it on the Early period would be great in itself.




On "Ledingen" I can see it has been discussed with one of the devs saying they are saving it for naval units, You could have a land unit named/rename the Bondir to Leding for the reason that they are both peasant infantry and are very similar armed (Shield, Spear, Sword and Helmet) and that the leding was not just a crew on the boat, but soldiers that would land and make up the army on land where they now were sent to, now i am not saying anything in certeinty because i havn't read of it happening, but for the king could use/call upom the leding in defence, but that is affected by the discussion that some think the landeværn was the defensive army and the Leding was the offensive one, while others dismiss that. In historical context it has been used defensively in the aspect to navaly patrol the Danish waters from raids by Venderne.
It does seem if it was to become "Leding" instead of Bondir it would only be present in early largely, because by the late 13th century and even more so later, instead of being called to arms were instead taxed as for the king to hire mercenaries instead of the peasant army, which we see becomming more and more apparant the later we get. There was times where kings would try to revive it or were in a need of a navy and it would be called upon, but it never lasted long and was soon back to the tax rather than the service at arms.
So i'm kinda split on it, but i wanted to share some of my thoughts on it. There is also what Niels Rasmussen's said with just renaming it to the more correct for Denmark "Bondær"

But i hope Denmark in the high and late period will get some German mercenary units to show how big a part they became in the Danish medieval armies in the later periods.

Additionaly the only times i have seen "Opbud" mentioned it is always in correlation with "Leding" so i come to the conclusion that it can be used somewhat interchangeably, but "Leding" still being the most correct when reffering to it in Denmark.

On the current Bondir, The Danish bondir seems very lacking in equipment compared to their Swedish and Norwegian counterparts, one thing i remember specifically from the first of the Scandinavian books from the Osprey publishing is they mentioned what made Denmark differ more from Sweden and Norway was availability and use and adoption of Kiteshields taking on in Denmark before Sweden and Norway, and it does make sense because of Denmark's closer proximity and land connection with the Central european nations. The Swedish and Norwegian Bondir(early) all have Kiteshield (must say the shield patterns on the Swedish ones are great) and helmets (sometimes with a mail coif underneath) and some even have chainmail, i am not saying the Danish ones should all have kiteshields, but some variations with kiteshields amongs round shields would be nice, they are peasantry afterall, but from the law we know they required: Shield, Sword, Spear and Helmet. It's also aparrant when looking on the High period version that the Norwegian seem the quite better equipped of the two, but i can't completely speak for it as i my knowledge on norway is limited, maybe the Nowegian peasantry was just better equipted than the Danish at the time. Perhaps Kjertesvein could enlighten me with the amazingly detailed history source book that is called his brain. (Not envious at all)
It does give me a giggle too right now in-game when i see that stats between Bondir and Landeværn, with the Bondir having more armour and twice the shield block with their tiny round shields and unarmoured bodies, but blancing is always a hard part and it's easy to miss stuff and i know you are busy with adding alot of great stuff to the mod.

I would like to say i think there should be a couple of Bondir that have chainmail, scattered in between, as we are talking about the early unit even accounting for equipment used all the up to 1350, that is going by tier system i was given the last time i asked what time period each of them accounted for, the answer was the following from Slytacular: "Bascially, Tier 1 = 1212A.D. to 1350A.D. (High Medieval Era), Tier 2 = 1350 to 1420 (Transitional Era), Tier 3 = 1420 to 1500 (Late Medieval Ages). Campaign simulates start time and politics at 1212A.D. and the future is alternate history."




On Landeværn, i think there should be a late version because of the statement made by the Zealand Landsting in 1428, that suggest the Landeværn was still in use in the protection of the country
"Da kunne vi ikke finde rettere efter gammel sædvane og ret, som tidligere har været gældende i landet, end at hvis fjenden kommer til landet, og bavn brænder, og vidjebrand går, og nogen, som både har lovlig alder og er våbenfør, sidder hjemme, så bør han hænge ved sin egen bjælke"



On Danish Riddere(early) there is a lack of any kind of great helmet, the closest is the helmet with faceplate on it, which is very late 12th century and first half 13th cetury, but no great helmet, alot of the time scale i am going off is by Slytacular's answer, so going by early being 1212-1350, then there should be a great helmet and even the later sugerloaf version too.



Small question, why is the Swordstaff infantry called "Castle guards"?
With the small mention of Swordstaffs i hope Sweden will get them soon too, as there is actually a historical depiction of them using it at the battle of Elfsborg/Älvesborg 1502 against the Danes, Drawn by a German landsknecht by the name of Paul Dolnstein.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the "late" units of Huskarle and Hellebarder, i think there needs to be some more Bevors with the helmets, especially the Hellebarder as they are completely lacking it.

a few examples from the Altertavler.dk

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For later knights here is 2 Frogmouth helmets depicted in the woodcarving (Date unknown)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For a new helmet or extra helmets, it seems some helmets, mostly what appears to be bascinets and Sallets have rondels attached to the side of them in some carvings and paintings.

Bascinets (some of these are guesses when it comes to the depiction of a bascinet)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sallets.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[FuzFuzFuz]

This is a big post and took alot longer to write than i expected and the sun is starting to rise outside, so i am sorry for any spelling mistakes and poorly formulated sentences.
I hope you can use some of this info to help with the depiction of medieval Danish troops.


I would like to ask, would it not be better to call the Huskarle for Hirdmænd or even Lagmænd(Vederlagsmænd) "hird" or "Lagmænd" seems to be much more commonly used to refer to them in Denmark, while Huskarl is much more prevalent in England.
At the same time also remove the high and late version of it as the concept of "hird" as far as i have read completey gone by 1300. It seems to have started with the early 13th century, where the word Hærmand according to Sven Ågesøn seems to be new, the word Hærmand didn't just include the Hird of the king, but all the ones under other nobility and bishops, to then transition into the later Herremand, which seems to have merged with the older Stormænd class or just underneath it and be in full effect by 1300.

Hirdmand appears in the Jysdke lov as well as Hærmand, which seems weird unless Hærmand is in the old meaning of just any member of the army (Hæren). The law is from 1241.

Also from Vederloven, on "Vanding af hesten" og "Fodring af hesten" (Watering/Feeding of the Horse) would show that the Hird would be mounted when traversing the land, so i guess it wouldn't be unlikely for them to at certain scenarios stay saddled in combat, that could perhaps be a unit of Medium to Heavy cavalry?
There is a couple of early paintings that speculated to be Hirdmænd in mounted combat.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This one is from the great album Kjertesvein found on Danish medieval alter-boards
I've seen it dated anywhere between 1100-1200




This cavalry battle at Aal kirke from around 1200


This one is from Hornslet Kirke and is dated around 1225.

To replace the Hirdmænd/Huskarle was historically the Herremænd, which is already in the mod as a mounted knightly unit, that "could" be seen as the Knighted Herremænd and then as the new heavy infantry could be the Herremænd that was not knighted who would be know as "Væbner" who would as the Hirdmænd still be the infantry with the most expensive and well made armour in the army (beside the Stormænd).
From what i have read, though it happens to be someone commenting on Sven Ågesøn and Saxo Grammaticus commenting on the weapons of the Hird. Talking about it getting competitive in owning weapons especially Swords and Axes engraved with fine metals and composed into beautiful patterns and inscription by the leading goldsmiths.

On that note i do really want to see the 2 beautiful shaft ingraved axes the Norwegian Bondir and Hirdmen use to be replace the bland ones the Danish "Huskarle(early)/Hirdmænd" use, to somewhat depict this "competitiveness" to have best looking weapon, even if it isn't direct ingraving into the metal.
Pictures of the 2 axes in qustion:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A wish i guess i have is, to have a unit with Hirdmænd/Huskarle with 2 handed axes and even more would be high period as some finds suggest it was use to some extent into later periods until it was replaced by things like Poleaxes. but to atleast to have it on the Early period would be great in itself.




On "Ledingen" I can see it has been discussed with one of the devs saying they are saving it for naval units, You could have a land unit named/rename the Bondir to Leding for the reason that they are both peasant infantry and are very similar armed (Shield, Spear, Sword and Helmet) and that the leding was not just a crew on the boat, but soldiers that would land and make up the army on land where they now were sent to, now i am not saying anything in certeinty because i havn't read of it happening, but for the king could use/call upom the leding in defence, but that is affected by the discussion that some think the landeværn was the defensive army and the Leding was the offensive one, while others dismiss that. In historical context it has been used defensively in the aspect to navaly patrol the Danish waters from raids by Venderne.
It does seem if it was to become "Leding" instead of Bondir it would only be present in early largely, because by the late 13th century and even more so later, instead of being called to arms were instead taxed as for the king to hire mercenaries instead of the peasant army, which we see becomming more and more apparant the later we get. There was times where kings would try to revive it or were in a need of a navy and it would be called upon, but it never lasted long and was soon back to the tax rather than the service at arms.
So i'm kinda split on it, but i wanted to share some of my thoughts on it. There is also what Niels Rasmussen's said with just renaming it to the more correct for Denmark "Bondær"

But i hope Denmark in the high and late period will get some German mercenary units to show how big a part they became in the Danish medieval armies in the later periods.

Additionaly the only times i have seen "Opbud" mentioned it is always in correlation with "Leding" so i come to the conclusion that it can be used somewhat interchangeably, but "Leding" still being the most correct when reffering to it in Denmark.

On the current Bondir, The Danish bondir seems very lacking in equipment compared to their Swedish and Norwegian counterparts, one thing i remember specifically from the first of the Scandinavian books from the Osprey publishing is they mentioned what made Denmark differ more from Sweden and Norway was availability and use and adoption of Kiteshields taking on in Denmark before Sweden and Norway, and it does make sense because of Denmark's closer proximity and land connection with the Central european nations. The Swedish and Norwegian Bondir(early) all have Kiteshield (must say the shield patterns on the Swedish ones are great) and helmets (sometimes with a mail coif underneath) and some even have chainmail, i am not saying the Danish ones should all have kiteshields, but some variations with kiteshields amongs round shields would be nice, they are peasantry afterall, but from the law we know they required: Shield, Sword, Spear and Helmet. It's also aparrant when looking on the High period version that the Norwegian seem the quite better equipped of the two, but i can't completely speak for it as i my knowledge on norway is limited, maybe the Nowegian peasantry was just better equipted than the Danish at the time. Perhaps Kjertesvein could enlighten me with the amazingly detailed history source book that is called his brain. (Not envious at all)
It does give me a giggle too right now in-game when i see that stats between Bondir and Landeværn, with the Bondir having more armour and twice the shield block with their tiny round shields and unarmoured bodies, but blancing is always a hard part and it's easy to miss stuff and i know you are busy with adding alot of great stuff to the mod.

I would like to say i think there should be a couple of Bondir that have chainmail, scattered in between, as we are talking about the early unit even accounting for equipment used all the up to 1350, that is going by tier system i was given the last time i asked what time period each of them accounted for, the answer was the following from Slytacular: "Bascially, Tier 1 = 1212A.D. to 1350A.D. (High Medieval Era), Tier 2 = 1350 to 1420 (Transitional Era), Tier 3 = 1420 to 1500 (Late Medieval Ages). Campaign simulates start time and politics at 1212A.D. and the future is alternate history."




On Landeværn, i think there should be a late version because of the statement made by the Zealand Landsting in 1428, that suggest the Landeværn was still in use in the protection of the country
"Da kunne vi ikke finde rettere efter gammel sædvane og ret, som tidligere har været gældende i landet, end at hvis fjenden kommer til landet, og bavn brænder, og vidjebrand går, og nogen, som både har lovlig alder og er våbenfør, sidder hjemme, så bør han hænge ved sin egen bjælke"



On Danish Riddere(early) there is a lack of any kind of great helmet, the closest is the helmet with faceplate on it, which is very late 12th century and first half 13th cetury, but no great helmet, alot of the time scale i am going off is by Slytacular's answer, so going by early being 1212-1350, then there should be a great helmet and even the later sugerloaf version too.



Small question, why is the Swordstaff infantry called "Castle guards"?
With the small mention of Swordstaffs i hope Sweden will get them soon too, as there is actually a historical depiction of them using it at the battle of Elfsborg/Älvesborg 1502 against the Danes, Drawn by a German landsknecht by the name of Paul Dolnstein.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On the "late" units of Huskarle and Hellebarder, i think there needs to be some more Bevors with the helmets, especially the Hellebarder as they are completely lacking it.

a few examples from the Altertavler.dk

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For later knights here is 2 Frogmouth helmets depicted in the woodcarving (Date unknown)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For a new helmet or extra helmets, it seems some helmets, mostly what appears to be bascinets and Sallets have rondels attached to the side of them in some carvings and paintings.

Bascinets (some of these are guesses when it comes to the depiction of a bascinet)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sallets.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Acknowledged. I'll see to it.

[blackfang12]

So I've heard about an interesting little tidbit that could potentially provide for some interesting units. Apparently according to https://www.albion-swords.com/swords...h-2-hander.htm there are documents that suggest that using greatswords as lances might have been a thing in scandinavia according to some documents (though I've not been able to track them down, don't even know where to start looking) as they could grab the sowrd by the ricasso and tuck the hilt underneath the shoulder to couch it. Could also provide a basis for infantry greatsword units in Scandinavian factions

[Visarion]

Hey Fuz when will we see tge Zangids!?

[Visarion]

Hey Fuz when will we see the Zangids!?

[Macilrille]

Did somebody mention my name?