Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Denmark
Musical interpretation of Scandinavia's oldest node fragments, Denmark, Codex Runicus.
@anders99Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I assume you mean 'Herremandsleding' ('Lords levy') that appeared after the conquest of the Wends?
Niels Just Rasmussen (I assume this is a danish lecturer) made a post on MyArmoury.It is likely though that a reform took place after 1169 (conquest of Rügen) where the full viking age Peasant-leding of 800 ships - which probably only called for each ship member to have a shield and spear - was cut down to a fourth, with 4 skipæn taking rotation for each call, but much more was demanded of them.
So much more full weapon-set, but only 200 ships gives ~8000 much better armoured (and better provisioned) men post-1169. Called "Herremandsleding".
The Herremandsleding reform was probably a result of repeated attacks from Wendish vikings (especially on Falster and Lolland, that was severely depopulated) and was used as a "standing navy". Each of the four skipæn had to be out patrolling Danish waters for a season each (quarter of a year). Later also used against Estonian Vikings from Ösel/Saramaa. The King could still call for more ships when going on an offensive campaign during the Baltic Crusades, though he could only do so every 4 years according to the Scanian Law.
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=298940#298940
As far as I've understood it, the 3 different types of levies, See Nils Lund, p. 245-246, http://www.historisktidsskrift.dk/pd.../106_1/243.pdf
@fuzfuzfuz
You don't have to read all of the stuff in the following spoilers, it's up to you, but I'll post it anyway, because context is always good to have in case you need it.
Since Macilrille talks about St John's involvement in Denmark, I'll post this to complement it, to illustrate the spread of their main facilities throughout our mods period.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:We can start with a bit of historical context to Denmark., because, while I think the 'M2TW Denmark Introduction -text' that you've used does well in the pathos department, I think the historical context is a bit out of place, specially for a starting date in 1212. Many years ago I had a discussion with a Dane who know far more than me on Denmark. He wrote a Ma on the internal politics of Denmark (1047-1250). I'll just copy-past his relevant posts on Denmark, so as to keep it as true to his words as possible.
The discussion below was based on another mod I was doing research for at the time. We talked about the powerful families of Denmark, units, (special political scripts,) etc. The starting date for that mod was 1080, much earlier than 1212, but it gives you insight into the history of Denmark into the 13th century.
PS: Keep in mind that this was half a decade ago. Things may have changed since then, hopefully my spelling.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:Originally Posted by Macilrille
That I can, and thanks, it is indeed. A younger student who copied the analysis to study on European (not just Danish- Scandinavian) lavel got a Ph D stipend on Cambridge on much acclaim for his genius... My professor then did tell me to save it for a Ph D, but it was what I wanted to do my Ma on, so...Ok, thanks, I have read it and it's pretty good I must note. I think that should cover the civialian side.
Can you tell me abit more about the clans?
Hvide, Bodil, Trund and sunniva. How they functioned and where their power base were located?
Anyway for the large families, Trund, Thrugot and Thorgunna were different names for the same very powerful family. Doubtless the most powerful one besides the royal family from about 1080-ish to 1150-ish when the Hvide family/clan took over. the Thrugots probably had Norwegian connections BTW as the original Thorgunna is assumed to be a Norwegian marrying a Danish magnate AFAICR. Their powerbase was in Jutland, but that is just about all we know.
Bodil and her sons were located on Sjælland and their powerbase seems to have been on S- Central Sjælland.
Skjalm Hvide's possessions were on C Sjælland (his main manor was probably in Fjenneslev near Sorø).
How they functioned? They played a game of power politics, allying with each other and various pretenders (Sven Estridssøn definately had the Prolific trait and his many ambitious descendants were powers to be reckoned with as well as troublemakers for the next 200 years after his death as they competed for the throne) to further their own power. This ever-shifting network of alliances of really ambitious men created much trouble in denmark, Norway and on Iceland. Njals Saga is a very good specific example of hos such power politics were played. It was much the same here, except when the king was strong he did not allow too much havoc. But with many kings, many pretenders and frequent civil wars, local peace and peace between the great families were not always assured. These men (and royal relatives) would be the holders of titles in the country, including as powerful churchmen (Asser and Eskil, archbishops of Scandinavia- Denmark/Sweden were from the Trund Clan, Asser's brother Svend was bishop in Viborg, Archbishop Absalon was a Hvide as was his cousin Peder Vognsøn Bishop in Aarhus), and they generally did not shirk from fighting. Absalon was one of the leading men in the campaigns against the Vends.
They would also often have allies abroad, magnate or royal families of other countries, Norway and Flanders especially AFAICR, but also Flanders, Sachsen/dHRR, England and Sweden. The more powerful Denmark became the more powerful its and its magnates' allies.I cannot seem to see the map? Did you attach? Post as pic?
I hope you see it now.
The big "plan" is to have each clan with it's own province to grow. Each province will be able to recruite generals who will have a clan title to it. Each province will also have a number of retinues being produced to the general in that settlement (archbishop, lawmaker, Jarl, etc.).
My problem, is that I can't seem to fit Bodil-clan into this game. It seems they are pushed under Hvide, possibly in Odense Stift area, and I can't add more regions to the map. I could possibly mover borders and the capitals, but it seems as if they are geographically too small to fit into it. If you have any ideas, then speak up.
In medieval Norway, there was only 1 Jarl at one point. Most likly a family member or next of kin to calm down a possible revolt. How many Jarls could/did Denmark have? The Jarl Retinue will have the highest military bonus, so I may need another military title.... I can't come up with one :/
~Wille
I see it now.
Yes...
We do not actually know anything about the Sunnivasons, only one is known; Haakon, the rest are unknown, as is the size and power of the family, and others.
I would suggest that it be tied to time and interchangable as clans had land in more provinces than one; especially over time. Rise and fall in the fortunes of families could also be tied to them marrying and/or fostering royalty; the rise of the Hvide Ckan is definately tied to their fostering of Valdemar d Store.
Provinces - Families 1050- 1150
1. Nørre Jylland; Royal Family (Aarhus had a royal manor, and there were others and we know that Niels, a Royal prince, lived and was locally reverred as a saint here in Aarhus), Trund, others (by others I mean those whose members we do not know except one or two, those names can be found in our sources; Saxo, Sven Aggesen, Roskildeannalen, Helmold, Runestones, etc.).
2. Sjælland, Småøerne and Fyn; Hvide, Bodilsønnerne, Royal Princes, a few others.
3. Midtjylland; Trund, Royal princes, others.
4. Sønderjylland; Royal Princes, others, Trund.
5. Skaane; Trund in the late period (Asser and Eskil were Archbishops in Lund and the family gained land grants there), others, Royal family.
1150- 1250
1. Nørre Jylland; Royal Family, others, Trund, Hvide.
2. Sjælland, Småøerne and Fyn; Hvide, Bodilsønnerne, Royal Princes.
3. Midtjylland; Trund, Royal princes, others, Hvide.
4. Sønderjylland; Royal Princes, a few others.
5. Skaane; Hvide, a few Trund, others, Royal family.
6. Holsten, gets their own German Dukes and exists in a sort of void with ties to both Denmark and dHHR.
After 1200-ish we loose track of those three powerful clans as they either disappear or change into new families. We can follow this process with the Hvide clan as they keep together for longest but eventually around 1300 disappear as the various branches dissolve into other prominent families.
Yes Bishop and Archbishop should be titles like Duke/Earl, etc. magnates and princes can get it.
About Jarls (later Hertug/Duke and largely interchangable). It seems that there were two ranks of Jarl even, but we have very few sources. My own interpretation is that Jarl of Denmark was the military commander of the realm (after the king of course) and that each border area had its own Jarl reponsible for its defense. Knud Lavard was definately such of Sønderjylland and possibly the Jarl of all Denmark as well. Sønderjylland and Småøerne definately had each their own (against the Vends mainly), and Halland probably as well (against you Norwegians and the disunited Swedes). I think were I you I would have a Jarl of Denmark as the highest command and Jarl of ## the second highest. It is a complicated issue as Skjalm is called Jarl of Sjælland in one source, but that might just have meant "powerful man with large alliance behind him and able to field military expeditions of his own". Of course, after 1150- 1200 titles change or other titles become more visible. Jarl becomes hertug and titles at court gain more significance in a stable realm and dynasty.
Here he talked about his ideas for units for the mod and how to make custom recruitment scripts we were going to make for that mod.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:FM = family member, Skt john = Saint John, Hv = Heavy, Generals = non-Family Members, SS = StainlessSteel, P.A. = Peasant Archer, N.A = Norse Archer.I don't have my posts, but I think I basically asked what he meant in regards to starting armies in 1080.Been thinking a bit...
Now as for starting forces and Fms, they are wrong both in MTWII and SS which I just test played as Denmark, though at least they have the King's name right.
The military parts of this is based on my interpretation of the evidence, but is very close to Niels Lund's. Rikke Malmros has a different view.
If you start in 1080 like those two, there should be no standing militia as such as all standing military forces were the Hirds of magnates. The King, Jarl or other powerful magnate (Skjalm Hvide for example who did it round 1100 AD), would then summon their allies with their followers (and in some cases others as well if it was a just cause like Skjalm's), who would summon the lesser magnate they were allied to/who were dependant on them who would again summon the local farmers depending on them and the people they kept on the farm + their sons, etc.. This Leding/Leidang of Hlids/Hirds would be the offensive army of the country. The Landeværn were the levy and were for defence purposes only. This is where the various low-level spearmen and archers would belong, and on crusades.
Suggestion for units to represent this system, using SS terms. All of them foot troops, even Generals
-Levy Spearmen, Peasant Archers, Peasants, & all Militia: Landeværn and Crusades. Summoned by Royal representative, disbands after a season unless on Crusade. Lvl 1-2 barracks, built only by royal representative.
-Special Unit: Vedeman's/Skt. Knud's Guild Militia. In from late 11th to mid 12th century Citizen Guilds (the most famous one is Vedeman's) fought against the pagan Vends. It has been convincingly argued that Vedeman's and Skt. Knud's guilds were the equivalent of the Iberian citizen militia and their role in the reconquista. After 1160 the Johanites takes over that role. In game I would enable a lvl 1 guildhouse of Skt John but under another name and resulting in two different units; a tough warship and some tough infantry. Then when the city grows and a lvl 2 can be built let the Johanites take over, including their units.
The following can be built by any General.
-Free farmers and “Karle” serving minor magnates, Viking Raiders with axe or Long Sax, Archers of some sort- better than P.A., worse than N.A., Spearmen with Sax or Axe as backup. Lvl 2 Castle Barrack
-Minor magnates; Axemen with sword and shield as backup, Norse Swordsmen in lt. armour, Norse Archers. Armoured Spearmen with sword as backup. Lvl 3 Castle barracks.
-Magnates; Huskarle (elite and heavily armoured Axemen), Norse Swordsmen in Hv armour, Elite Spearmen with sword and shield as backup and in Hv armour. Lvl 4 Castle barrack.
Army Reform! After Danish units has participated in a battle with or against Mailed Knights or better shock cavalry (Historically this happened at Fotevik, but another reform of the Leding happened mid-12th century- too complicated for game terms). Allows you to build stables and highest lvl archery ground for some X-bow specialists, and adds the “Feudal” units to Castles. Further, it is only after this reform that any artillery units can be built.
I also suggest that Princesses can be married again after their husband's death if they are still of childbearing age, many Danish ones did.
Working on a list of FMs and Generals in 1080, they were numerous.I asked further about general stuff and in regards to special units.What I am saying is to have no starting unit except a lot of FMs and generals, and little money. The list will follow.
I think I asked about foreign relations to German lords, dHRR (das Heiliges Römisches Reich) = Holy Roman Empire,We do not know how their armour and clothing looked. Presumably one can find something connected with their banner, but I do not actually know. In the textual description of the Guildshouse you might wish to note that only after Knud Lavard's death or being labelled a martyr were they named such, before they were called edsgilder. Vedeman's lag existed to free christian prisoners, defend their home towns and wage war against the heathern. We know little of their armament either, but I would presume much like their non-guild brethern. That is something to look into and interpret. They were shipborne often, so ... mostly footsoldiers possibly.
Special units:
Excellent thing about the special units. Does these 2 guilds have a special banner/clothing? What arms and armour would they be equipted with? I don't seem to find much about them, except abit, that Skt. Knud's Gildi was centered around Sleswig.
This was at the time of Thrude dominance, but when Hvide took over - St. Johns Knight come into the picture. It seems as if I can let Hvide clan recruite St. John's knights , while only Thrude clan can be able to recruite Skt. Knud's Gildi from Sleswig from the get go.
but I'm abit confused about the diffrent levy groups. Would their armourment be any diffrent, how dispiplined they were any diffrent?
The Landevearn was for defence purposes and for crusades (like against the wends)? I guess the Citizen Milita (special guilds) would fill some void in this Landevearn organisation?
And that the Leding was for offencive wars against other states? We have the laws of the norwegian leidangr from Trøndelag and Østlandet which may give some idea about their armourment, evan as this is 1250's, do you agree? Perhaps abit lighter armed/more shabby.
Ledingmenr
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
In the Norwegian Hird, there were low born members called Gestir ("Guests"). These were the King's men, and as a result of strick rules between the corporations withing the Hird led to great rivalry towards the Hirdmenr- and Huscarls corporations. They had their own ship, with a black banner.
They would conscript the Leidangr, and act as a quick and clever assult infantry on the battlefield. They executed the King's words, like assassinations, observations (guesting others people house without their concent), and other such tasks. They could also act as a police force, collecting taxes for magnates and ombudsmen, and as a group of secret service organ for the King and magnates. Weather on trips or guarding the outside complex of the King's Manor.
Was there such a "seargents" group in Denmark? Did it have a name?
This is the one ready and planned:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
~Wille
The Johanites seem more connected with the Royal house than the Hvide family. In fact in order to get a share of the tithe that they otherwise got (a special one), Absalon had to do some politicing, lobbyism and slandering of them in the vatican. I believe that the fact that they arrive in Denmark about that time is more a consequence of a general spread of theirs from the Holy Land to other crusading areas (they arrive in Aragon as well at about this time). Also, with all Kings being members of Knud's guilds (both Knuds being royal martyrs), this too is more connected to them.
My suggestion for Landeværn would be the lowest level forces recruited in Castles and all forces recruited in cities; except the special units. They can only be called up for defence purposes and will only stay active for a season, disbanding the next- or unrest will result. They can, however, join a crusade when the Pope sanctions it and will not disband then.
It will require a special recruitment system, see below.
Meanwhile yes, the Leding will be for offensive purposes, but no it has nothing to do with that known from the landskabslove- just like our old idea of feudalism has little to do with reality (Susan Reynolds' "Fiefs and Vassals" and Niels Lund's "Hlith, Leding og Landeværn" deal with these issues). At least until the 13th century, the Leding was more like what I described above, Kings, earls and other magnates calling up their alliances. Which is what I try to describe above with my "Karle, Magnates", etc descriptions..
About the Gastir/Gæster, I do not know how much basis there is for them in the sources or whether they, like berserkers, are 99 % elaboration from a name. I have come across no such organisation in the Danish sources at any rate, so though the Icelandic Sagas mention them for Norway, there seem to have been no such organisation here. The King seems to have used specially trusted men (often Sune Ebbesen or Esben Snare under Valdemar d Store) for special assigments, spies and such.
For the rest I will have to ponder it a bit to get my cold-clogged head around it. But for Germany- Denmark there was a very intimate relationship.
Higher Danish Clergy got their education in Germany or Paris (Absalon got his in Paris).
Denmark- Germany/Saxony (Henrik Løve/ Heinrich d Löwe) cooperated in the conquest of the Vends, later when Henrik fell out of favour with the Emperor, Valdemar and Knud renounced the alliance, but also did not support the Emperor in his campaign against Henrik. Meanwhile the Counts of Holsten swore fealty to Denmark and Danish rebels fled to Saxony.
It is unclear whether Valdemar at one point swore fealty to Conrad, but he did attend Conrad at a Reichstag, I forgot where, and there were very close links. There was also, fierce competetion, Saxo rants a lot against the germans and we can thus deduce that the dHHR was a threat to Denmark around 1200, quite likely considering what happened in the 13th century.
One of the things that cost Svend Grathe his crown was that he tried to organise the Danish court and realm along the same lines of the German, Valdemar was more suss and kept the traditional alliance-making, but in the end was behind as much centralisation; he merely employed the old system to do so, merged them in a way.
Also, ask your colleagues to read Susan Reynolds' "Fiefs and Vassals", where they will see that the traditional model of Feudalism is wrong and that all of Europe was organised more along the lines that I describe for Denmark. Lars Kjær, a younger student, basically copied my dissertation on European level and got a Ph D at Cambridge looking into it. Consequently, if they want a historically accurate model, there are things subject to change ;-)
It is not going to happen, but it should.
I will be back to you later with the rest.Well, in historical reality the magnate built his following and alliance by handing out gifts and calling them up when he needed them. The most succesful and charismatic chiefs would be able to build the largest alliances as we see in all sources.
So, recruitment cost should depend on the recruiter's "Charisma" and success as a general. I would suggest that income is lowered significantly, and cost of units lowered depending on the FM's Command Stars and Chivalry/Dread the higher those numbers, the lower the cost of units.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:They basically become landowners in Scandinavia, not necessarily with a military purpose that we see from M2TW. For example, the St. John presence in Norway (Værne/Varne) was a major landowner of 200 farms across Norway [1], acting as a sort of retirement home for old Hirdmen as as well as other economic activities. Denmark on the other hand were much more invested in the Crusading business.
TL;DR
If we dial it back to simple changes that can be made... Based the above, as far as I've understood it, I'm considering the following. ('Landeværn' = 'Home guard', used for the defense of the realm)
Rename Danish archers --> Landaevern Archers
Rename Leding Spears --> Landaevern Spears
Mounted Crossbowmen.
Crusader cavalry. Red (surcoat), with white cross seem to be a running theme on church paintings of crusaders in Scandinavia.
15th century artwork from Danish altars and frescoes.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Disclaimer
These mostly display various saints or biblical stories, so there is a level of "otherworldliness". I've included images which incorporate weapons and armour. The "bad guys" in stories sometimes wore archaic or non-existing equipment, to portray events long time ago. Ergo, don't assume everything you see was worn by the soldiers at the time. Some of the paint job might have been done during 16-20th century, but they may also have repainted the same worn out colours back on it, we don't know. It's my assumption that most of these things have been painted over in the last 2-300 years, and so I wouldn't take all of the paint job to heart. It's also important to remember that artwork was made by the rich (generals, officers, knights, etc.), and therefor shouldn't always be reflective of the poorest soldiers. They still provide a good context for the period and we often see local nuances in regards to arms and armour used, such as the danish sword with a leather band over the guard that keeps reappearing. Basically--if you're in doubt, ask for a second opinion.
Images that are dated to early 16th century is for you to get a level of context, but don't use it unless you see that style of equipment in the 15th century. The images that state "1500" or "O. 1500", means that they were made somewhere around the year 1500, including late 15th century, but conversely, also early 16th century. If you're in doubt, get a second opinion.
Here is a map with each dioceseduring the late 15th century, more or less.
Diocese of Aarhus
Diocese of Aalborg
Diocese of Viborg
Diocese of Roskilde
Diocese of Ribe
Diocese of Lolland-Falster
Diocese of Copenhagen
Diocese of Elisnore (Helsingør)
Diocese of Haderslev
Diocese of Fyn
Some of the images I liked a lot. Part I
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I've never seen the dragon helmet before, but most of the other elements look for the most part, familiar.
This one is pretty cool and is something I see a lot. Textile over what appears like a normal breast plate, with a big v shape opening in the middle of the textile.
Danish swords, the leather band over the guard and grip.
Here we see more textile covers over the plate armour. Same V shape.
Take into consideration that these colours may or may not be representative. It's plausible that they are somewhat representative, but we don't know.
Here we see early renditions of slashed textile. It looks like someone has so much money, that they can afford to destroy their own fabric. Later on, you can see the landsknechks slash their armour even more.
What appears as a full plate harness with tassets and a cloak over it.
Once more, it seems as if another V shape shirt over a plate armour
St maurice
gilded poleyns
I like the textile skirt sticking out below the fauld. I wonder if the soldier is wearing a hat or if it's a plain kettle hat painted over in recent times.
St. george slaying a dragon.
More dudes in plate armour. There's a lot of sallet and low hanging kettle helmets
you can clearly see the german sallet style, with it's longer tail.
Part IIDanish FrescoesSpoiler Alert, click show to read:
Slashed cloth over plate armour.
V neck dude on the right.
The horse and dragon can probably be ignored due to iconoclasm and recent re-conservation a couple of 100 years ago. The interesting points is the rider which originate from 1490s.
The same V neck
slashed textile on the arm
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
King Valdemar IV of Denmark.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The shield is added on later, but it's similar to his own.
The heart decor on his body is the same on both the fresco and effigy.
Danish arms and armour from my previews postSpoiler Alert, click show to read:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14842918
The things that are typically Danish to me, just from my impression, are
Sallets (both burgundian and german style).
Low hanging kettle hats.
Gilding here and there, as seen above.
The V-neck.
Danish swords, the one with leather across the guard and grip.
Danish noble swords, type XVIIIe. Danish Noble Swords.
Lots of axes for the common man, like peasants and archers. Danes were famed for their prevalent use of axes, just like the Scots were famed for the pike, the english for the longbow and the irish for their javelins.
Meckleburg and Holsten were the regions that produced a lot of the heavy units for the wars in Scandinavia. Knights, serjeants, etc. in large numbers were essential to succeed in Scandinavian warfare. Often called 'Kneckts', meaning 'soldier'. However, they cost a fortune, and the Danish king would pawn large parts of his kingdom to these German lords to maintain his vast kingdom. What happened historically was that the Danish
~Wille
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