[Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.5 - Updated 2020-01-20)

[JCB206]

@jdofo

I'll update the 4tpy and 12tpy packs with corrected movement when the big update is released!

Each pack will have movement in the same balance as the 24 month one? Double and 6 times speed. (In theory of course)
Im surprised that I like the slower movement (IN ENEMY TERRITORY) but it can get crazy. In my own territory, it is pretty good, maybe some more. I want marching through enemy territory to be slower than my own, but I will give you an example...In a war last night, it took me 9 turns to march from my border to the enemy city. It was summer in the desert and they needed to move faster. I had full supplies in the province adjacent with supply drop. I almost ran out because of 9 turns of marching. Its roughly 4.5 months and it would have taken me 2 turns in regular DEI (6 months) so we are moving faster! 4 turns would more like it. I like 4 tpy but like 12 tpy better. 24 tpy is great but the movement just goes to a trickle. Its probably more realistic except for 4.5 months marching through a desert. They had full supplies (by baggage train) and needed to move faster. JMO

@MrMerisi

As for fort-strength, I'm still experimenting with the ignition threshold for fort-walls as I don't see any other way to make them less "OP" (already slightly nerfed tower damage in my beta version). The only two solutions is to either make walls catch fire faster (so that they break and larger gaps are created for the AI to enter your fort with melee units) or give some adverse negative campaign effect for standing in a fort.

I have yet to have a fort battle and feel they should be very powerful. Storming a fort, or city for that matter, should be extremely tough but have no experience. I have tried to use them to find out but they take 100% of movement points, so no use on campaign.

@JCB206

This is interesting because I rarely get everyone declaring war on me at the beginning. Perhaps it's because I manipulate diplomacy right away to have some of them fight each other. Also if a player doesn't build up their army early, others will see you as a weak kingdom ripe for the taking (relative strength ratio being a factor whether they declare war on you or not).
I've had a few occassions when I'm larger later on and hated among others, that in some cases 5-6 might declare war on me together - but by then you might actually have a chance to keep your borders safe.
In overall it's kind of difficult to find the sweet spot for the AI when it comes to diplomatic behaviour. The "snowball"-effect is something that happens often and the three only solutions I had for that so far is to either have decent relations with everyone, have a defensive/military alliance with someone strong or be strong yourself.

About how I figured, just makes early game for large factions very very difficult. Easier to start as a minor faction.

I already buffed movement a little in my beta version of the next patch and it's working out quite well so far - I'm sure most players will like the new movement more than the old.

Can't wait to test. Awesome!

DV is designed to be played in normal. The bonuses to the AI are larger in normal than even "very hard". All other difficulties are pretty much DeI values and I cannot recommend nor know how well or bad the AI will behave with the standard settings. I made it this way so that two people can play coop/head-to-head normally, because in multiplayer you can't change campaign and battle difficulty separately (#CA).

I had forgot that. Thanks

And lastly in regards of governor-general exp gain, I might try to double the exp they get from governing (perhaps from 1 to 2 or 3), but 10 is insane and overpowered. You'll be sitting on a level 10 godly governor in no time with that setting

Sounds great. 10 per turn on 24 tpy would be crazy. I think it would be a balance but not directly comparable. Lets say I play a game for 150 turns on 4 turns per year. I have a few level 10 governors. No problem in my eyes. Thats 37.5 years of game time which makes my governor 55-60 years old depending on when he started. He will die soon anyway.

In DV that same amount of time would take 900 turns! I will not play a campaign that long IMO. At 2 exp points per turn, you get 48 points per year instead of 40 (10x4 tpy) and would balance. But that is still 450 turns! 3 would make it roughly 270 turns to reach the same point. So 2 or 3 would be good in my opinion for gameplay. 3 would take the governor 11-12 years to reach the highest levels, making him 40-45 years of age, not bad. Thanks for looking into it.

[Ygraine]

Thanks @Ygraine. I will export the DV tables and import into a separate pack when you release 1.2.2h.

For those about to start a new campaign, when do you think that will be released?

In the meantime could you let us know where to mod the movement distance?

The issue with forts will remain that with the pathfinding the AI will always blob one entrance over others and the arrow towers will kill thousands, along with stupid AI friendly fire.

Have you considered enabling a bunch of deployable barricades allowing the player to build their own sort of fort and station archers inside it?

First I'm waiting for the DeI patch to be finished. Animations look a lot better now! I only know that it'll be done in February... Not sure when since my schedule is kind of full currently, but I do mod a little bit almost every day.

Yes, unfortunately CA made a really poor job with the BAI. If I make walls ignite faster (from stray tower fire) then in theory that should make things a little easier for the attacker. Kind of a silly way to try to balance it out, but I don't see any other way of doing it without gimping barbarian cities in the process.

The movement distance is in the same campaign_handicap_effects_tables where the other thing you asked me about yesterday was.

Yes, adding extra deployable walls (and tweaking deployables in general) is something I've been planning to do. You might have noticed that fort deployment is kind of big for the defender, you have lots of space to place stuff outside the fort itself. I was thinking that adding extra walls there would be perfect, but need to see if there is some hardcoded deployables-limit first.

Was just reading through a few posts and remembered that I am 40 turns into a campaign and I forgot to set it to normal instead of hard. Crying inside.

40 turns isn't much! Restart!

Each pack will have movement in the same balance as the 24 month one? Double and 6 times speed. (In theory of course)
Im surprised that I like the slower movement (IN ENEMY TERRITORY) but it can get crazy. In my own territory, it is pretty good, maybe some more. I want marching through enemy territory to be slower than my own, but I will give you an example...In a war last night, it took me 9 turns to march from my border to the enemy city. It was summer in the desert and they needed to move faster. I had full supplies in the province adjacent with supply drop. I almost ran out because of 9 turns of marching. Its roughly 4.5 months and it would have taken me 2 turns in regular DEI (6 months) so we are moving faster! 4 turns would more like it. I like 4 tpy but like 12 tpy better. 24 tpy is great but the movement just goes to a trickle. Its probably more realistic except for 4.5 months marching through a desert. They had full supplies (by baggage train) and needed to move faster. JMO


I have yet to have a fort battle and feel they should be very powerful. Storming a fort, or city for that matter, should be extremely tough but have no experience. I have tried to use them to find out but they take 100% of movement points, so no use on campaign.



About how I figured, just makes early game for large factions very very difficult. Easier to start as a minor faction.



Can't wait to test. Awesome!



I had forgot that. Thanks



Sounds great. 10 per turn on 24 tpy would be crazy. I think it would be a balance but not directly comparable. Lets say I play a game for 150 turns on 4 turns per year. I have a few level 10 governors. No problem in my eyes. Thats 37.5 years of game time which makes my governor 55-60 years old depending on when he started. He will die soon anyway.

In DV that same amount of time would take 900 turns! I will not play a campaign that long IMO. At 2 exp points per turn, you get 48 points per year instead of 40 (10x4 tpy) and would balance. But that is still 450 turns! 3 would make it roughly 270 turns to reach the same point. So 2 or 3 would be good in my opinion for gameplay. 3 would take the governor 11-12 years to reach the highest levels, making him 40-45 years of age, not bad. Thanks for looking into it.

Will try to scale the movement appropriately, yes. I was testing Getae in a new campaign yesterday and it begun with me having a "harsh winter" in my region from turn 1. That's like -45% movement + the regional "rough terrain" debuff... I could barely move at all and thus wasn't able to rush Daci! I restarted the campaign and this time I had a normal winter! This kind of RNG makes the gameplay more interesting but also annoying if you're on the receiving end!

Hopefully it'll "only" take 6~ turns for you after the update.
One other idea I've had for a while is to add a +5% movement bonus in the region for each city/town tier you upgrade - representing how the roads are developed and improved. I will include this in the next update - should be helpful and give the player another reason to tier up if there's an issue with long travel-times in an area.

I think the 100% movement cost change to forts was a nessecary thing since now forts are more about defense than offense. Before this change people could walk up to 3-4 enemy-warbands and deploy a fort right infront of their noses to taunt them into attacking you.
Now you have to sit and wait for them to come, and if you risk going closer to set up a fort, they might reach and attack you before you get the chance to do so.

I actually played a lot of test campaigns lately just to see how my changes work long-term, and among the factions I tried I had three major factions (Rome, Seleukidai and Media). I can't really say that it was THAT difficult as a major faction.
Rome was probably the hardest and Media the easiest. As Rome I had to contend with early strong celtic shortswords and rely on Equites to counter them, but once Pyrrhus was out of the way it became a lot easier to focus on Cisalpinia only. Playing as Media only Armenia attacked me, after that I was able to pick my own wars since I managed to get trade with Seleukidai and start working on Caucasus/eastern Asia Minor (and take Persia who rebelled against Seleukidai).
Seleukidai is probably one of my favourite faction so I've played a lot with them. I kind of learned how to defend stuff and what neighbours to keep happy for safe borders

Yes, 2 or 3 will be a safe bet for governor-general exp-gain!

[Vardano]

Hi,

I tried to play Data Venia for a first time couple of weeks ago and I also added to it DE AI Arbitris and Cultural Tensions mods which I also played for a first time. Right now I see some very strange behavior and not sure exactly what is causing since something like this does not happen in regular DEI. Maybe you can give me a tip. So, Seleucid satraps rebelled over time in the east and many of them having war between each other. Many of this new states have one city but they can afford full four stacks... but the weird part is that they have very good relations between each other when they at war, almost like plus 250, and they are not sending any stacks against each other, just sitting around their capitals. Do you think this is because of DE AI Arbitris mod or could this be normal AI behavior of Data Venia?

[JCB206]

First I'm waiting for the DeI patch to be finished. Animations look a lot better now! I only know that it'll be done in February... Not sure when since my schedule is kind of full currently, but I do mod a little bit almost every day.

Are you talking about the animation patch that the DEI team put out today? Does the battle animations work with DV or is that part of the new 1.2 battle system?

Will try to scale the movement appropriately, yes. I was testing Getae in a new campaign yesterday and it begun with me having a "harsh winter" in my region from turn 1. That's like -45% movement + the regional "rough terrain" debuff... I could barely move at all and thus wasn't able to rush Daci! I restarted the campaign and this time I had a normal winter! This kind of RNG makes the gameplay more interesting but also annoying if you're on the receiving end!

Hopefully it'll "only" take 6~ turns for you after the update.
One other idea I've had for a while is to add a +5% movement bonus in the region for each city/town tier you upgrade - representing how the roads are developed and improved. I will include this in the next update - should be helpful and give the player another reason to tier up if there's an issue with long travel-times in an area.

Sounds like your moving in the right direction. YES! There needs to be very good bonuses for level 3 and 4 cities to the roads. A level 4 province should have much faster troop movement.

I think the 100% movement cost change to forts was a nessecary thing since now forts are more about defense than offense. Before this change people could walk up to 3-4 enemy-warbands and deploy a fort right infront of their noses to taunt them into attacking you.
Now you have to sit and wait for them to come, and if you risk going closer to set up a fort, they might reach and attack you before you get the chance to do so.

Not a complaint, just haven't had the opportunity to use them.

I actually played a lot of test campaigns lately just to see how my changes work long-term, and among the factions I tried I had three major factions (Rome, Seleukidai and Media). I can't really say that it was THAT difficult as a major faction.
Rome was probably the hardest and Media the easiest. As Rome I had to contend with early strong celtic shortswords and rely on Equites to counter them, but once Pyrrhus was out of the way it became a lot easier to focus on Cisalpinia only. Playing as Media only Armenia attacked me, after that I was able to pick my own wars since I managed to get trade with Seleukidai and start working on Caucasus/eastern Asia Minor (and take Persia who rebelled against Seleukidai).
Seleukidai is probably one of my favourite faction so I've played a lot with them. I kind of learned how to defend stuff and what neighbours to keep happy for safe borders

I will have to try another campaign as the Seleucids and find a balance.

[MrMerisi]

First I'm waiting for the DeI patch to be finished. Animations look a lot better now! I only know that it'll be done in February... Not sure when since my schedule is kind of full currently, but I do mod a little bit almost every day.

So if you like the new combat system will you consider revising DV to include it?

Yes, adding extra deployable walls (and tweaking deployables in general) is something I've been planning to do. You might have noticed that fort deployment is kind of big for the defender, you have lots of space to place stuff outside the fort itself. I was thinking that adding extra walls there would be perfect, but need to see if there is some hardcoded deployables-limit first.

Would it be possible to eliminate forts altogether and the fortify stance just gives a bunch of deployables?

Yes, unfortunately CA made a really poor job with the BAI. If I make walls ignite faster (from stray tower fire) then in theory that should make things a little easier for the attacker. Kind of a silly way to try to balance it out, but I don't see any other way of doing it without gimping barbarian cities in the process.

Well the way I see it, just giving the defender a bunch of deployable barricades would allow the human player to build their own fort and have archers in it, vs the standard fort with OP arrow towers and always 1 super blob at the entrance.

The movement distance is in the same campaign_handicap_effects_tables where the other thing you asked me about yesterday was.

Yeah I would like to mod both the AI discount on unit upkeep and the movement distance. Same table for both?

[Gasmio]

Why not include data venia in official sub mods of DEI?

[KAM 2150]

Why would it be there? It has huge movement and is much more noticeable when it has separate thread.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Why not include data venia in official sub mods of DEI?

Cause it's too big. More like a separate mod actually.

[MrMerisi]

Cause it's too big. More like a separate mod actually.

This is a good point. I find that so much has changed in it that it should have its own mod forum and mention that it required DeI to play.

[Gasmio]

Update the mod!

[boblikesoup]

Would like to play this in a head-to-head campaign, but expansion is so hard with enemy AI army sizes and the fact that the are now controlled by human level player instead of dumb AI. Is there a submod you recommend, that won't crash this, for easier expansion that tunes down AI recruitment, buffs the player's, or otherwise allows for easier expansion in head to head?


Also side note: the number of arrows units have seems a bit high. In the last battle basic early archers were shooting for 25 minutes straight and still had plenty of ammo.

[Ygraine]

I'll release the update sometime after the DeI "h"-patch.


I've done a few head-to-head campaigns and we never controlled AI armies. We either helped the enemy player or just watched the fight.

Toning down ammo slightly for slingers/archers is something I've been considering for a while, but then they need to be slightly more effective. As for 25 minute firing, only garrisons can manage that, since they get a large bonus to ammo representing stocked ammo reserves at the city/town.

[Hoplitus]

Considering all the changes in last vanilla update, I image updating your mod is rather tedious. Take ur time, looking forward to it, tough!

Happy Valentine, to the Frozen North

[Sankrit]

Hey there! Just a quick question because I'm not sure if I am dumb or just missing something:

I've tried changing the turns it takes for the roman reforms to take place - which has worked fine in "Vanilla" DeI - but somehow I just can't get it to work with Data Venia.

I've tried changing the imperium levels and turns needed in the reforms.lua, as I've always done it, started 22 campaigns until now and it just doesn't work. Even uninstalling DeI + Data Venia, verifying the game's integrity via Steam did not work for me. I am using DeI and Data Venia, no other mods can cause conflicts.

Am I missing something? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Hoplitus]

Did you make your changes in the DeI pack file or the Data Venia pack?

You need to change it in the Data Venia pack as it changes reform requirements and overwrites the ones from DeI. If you do that it should work.

[Senktris]

Did you make your changes in the DeI pack file or the Data Venia pack?

You need to change it in the Data Venia pack as it changes reform requirements and overwrites the ones from DeI. If you do that it should work.

I changed the reforms.lua in the Data Venia pack, saved it, started the game - didn't work.

I absolutely don't have a clue what's wrong with my DV right now

[Hoplitus]

Yeah, tried myself as well and it doesn't work. Unfortunately I don't know why.

[Senktris]

Well, I don't have a clue either. I tried to change minor other things, but it feels like the changes I made don't get saved.

Guess we've got to wait for Ygraine to check what's going on

[Ygraine]

Will take a look at reform scripts again before next update.

Currently I'm waiting for the 1.2.2h DeI update, and we're all waiting to see what CA will break with their patch as well. No point releasing an update before that since there's a 99% chance it won't work when theirs arrives.

[Senktris]

Will take a look at reform scripts again before next update.

Currently I'm waiting for the 1.2.2h DeI update, and we're all waiting to see what CA will break with their patch as well. No point releasing an update before that since there's a 99% chance it won't work when theirs arrives.

I somehow managed to fix the reforms, but in a cheesy way - had to change the needed turns and imperium levels for the player to 0. Without that even in my "regular" campaign as Rome the reforms did not trigger.
Let's hope this is going to help you. And don't stress yourself, let's wait for CA's "work".