[Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.5 - Updated 2020-01-20)

[Eldgrimr]

The AI factions never stop declaring war against eachother and against me. They feel a bit overly aggressive.

[Flying Fox]

@jdofo/LEGIO_XXX ULPIA
@Flying Fox

Not possible to mod diplomacy behaviour based on distance between two kingdoms (perhaps with some advanced script) and I agree that this is an annoying thing. I've "solved" it by not exploring too far from my own lands. Why should some iberian/gallic/germanic/britannic tribe spam me from across the map when I play Pontus?

The issue with the "peaceful AI" is once again peace-spam. As soon as you declare war against a kingdom they will start spamming peace offers every turn, not to mention that a player can abuse this by forcing the AI to pay for peace every time. I had this in older versions of DV and decided to move away from this diplomacy-model. With the current aggression settings the AI tries to maintain at least one war at a time. I've had occasions when some kingdoms don't fight any one for a dozen turns or so, but eventually they will set their eyes on a neighbours lands. It would also make the game too easy (in my opinion) if the AI just sat and waited to be picked off one by one.

Since diplomacy mods are compatible with DV, you can simply pick one you prefer more than mine and load it before the mod. For example Dresden's softcore diplomacy-only version should work just fine.

Is it possible to increase the expansionism penalty? So that when you get bigger (later in game), it becomes harder to make treaties, and thus less spam?

Ideally, the AI would be happy to make trade with pretty much any faction not hostile to them, make non aggression pacts with neighbors, make alliances and confederations with related factions of similar size when under threat, and only small factions should ever offer to become client states of stronger factions when under threat from another strong faction and no potential allies are near.
I assume that, with the limitations of modding diplomacy, this will remain a fantasy.

I will give your new version a go, let you know how it went. I'll be playing as Syracuse, for whom I like to conquer just Sicily and maybe a few other islands and spend the rest of my time making allies, trade agreements and waging war on my allies' enemies. So it's a good test for diplomacy.

[Ygraine]

You're relentless, Ygraine! Keep up the good work, thumbs up!

Likewise! Looking forward to trying Kyrenaika

The AI factions never stop declaring war against eachother and against me. They feel a bit overly aggressive.

I haven't touched AI aggressiveness for quite many updates now and it's currently more or less in-line with how it's supposed to work in DV. If I make them more passive/friendly, this whole mod will become easy and it goes against the whole point of DV.

Luckily there's an option for those who don't agree with my diplomacy settings - you can use Dresden's softcore submod for 1.2 (only AI aggression-version) http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?696832-Official-Submod-Divide-et-Impera-Hardcore-and-Softcore-Submods

Make sure it loads before DV and you're golden!

Is it possible to increase the expansionism penalty? So that when you get bigger (later in game), it becomes harder to make treaties, and thus less spam?

Ideally, the AI would be happy to make trade with pretty much any faction not hostile to them, make non aggression pacts with neighbors, make alliances and confederations with related factions of similar size when under threat, and only small factions should ever offer to become client states of stronger factions when under threat from another strong faction and no potential allies are near.
I assume that, with the limitations of modding diplomacy, this will remain a fantasy.

I will give your new version a go, let you know how it went. I'll be playing as Syracuse, for whom I like to conquer just Sicily and maybe a few other islands and spend the rest of my time making allies, trade agreements and waging war on my allies' enemies. So it's a good test for diplomacy.

As far as I recall, Cristo already ramped up imperium expansionism penalties to higher values than in base DeI so I'm not sure if increasing this further would be such a good idea. I'll keep it in mind though when I reach higher imperiums in my current campaign.

I've been on the fence about trade agreements for quite some time, but decided lately that a faction will ideally trade with you if they at least like you a little and you actually have unique resources they can import. Some factions will still be hesitant to trade even if they like you a bit (diplomacy personalities differ between different kingdoms and some require higher relations than others). As for NA, I decided to throw it out completely and decreased the chance of you or the AI signing one exponentially. It just amounts to excessive spam later on and the AI mostly ignores if they have NA with you if they decide to attack.

Example; my friend was playing the Parthians and had an army in patrol stance near the Baktrian border (they had trade/NA and common enemies). The Baktrian AI wasn't trustworthy and they couldn't pass up on the chance to ambush my friends patrol stance force so they attacked on their turn, breaking both NA and trade in one go.

Like you mentioned yourself, there are sadly multiple limitations on how we can affect the AIs behaviour. Dresden still haven't managed to find the sweet spot for most of these diplomatic options and he's fifty times more experienced than me with this. There was talk about writing a script that would make AIs of the same culture band together if they felt threatened by an enemy faction of another culture, but it was put on ice since DeIs main scripter is inactive. I believe parts of your suggestions are possible with scripts, but my .lua script knowledge is very basic and scripters seem quite rare in the Rome 2 modding-scene in general.

Alright, looking forward to your feedback! Like I previously mentioned, the current diplomacy values aren't necessarily final, but it's near being where I envisioned them to be in the mod.

[jdofo]

Wow Ygraine, you're tiredless! Thank you so much for the quickness.

Will test the same Arevaci campaign ASAP and will let u know! Respect and keep up the amazing work

Edited: Did a very quick test on previous Arevaci campaign. From my experience, it's now doable and easier to get military access, defensive and military alliance from factions with 95+/120+ relationships, sharing the same enemies, which makes a lot of sense to me (e.g. declared war on Lusitani, Carthaginians and Cessetani, so Turdetani and Edetani loves me and I can sign with moderate/high chances military access, defensive and military alliance). In principle, the more enemies you share, the higher chances to sign them. However, sometimes it's easier to sign military alliance than defensive ones. Shouldn't be the opposite, or does it depend on campaign factors as well?

On the other hand, I made a mistake respecting Gallaeci and Cantabri relationships. In normal DeI, they both seem to like each other, but in DV, Gallaeci has lower relationships with Cantabri than Cantabri with Gallaeci. This means they won't sign any military access agreement, trespassing would dramatically affect their relationships (one single trespass lowers to 0 or negative all the previous advances) and they will fight in the future.

Hence, would it be possible to decrease trespassing diplomatic penalties? In fact, when an AI faction trespasses your lands, you don't have any diplomatic penalty toward them.

[LEGIO_XXX ULPIA]

Thanks a lot YGraine. I'll tray asap!

[Ygraine]

Patch is out & changelog updated!



Give the new diplomacy changes a try!

[jdofo]

Thanks again for the update, Ygraine!

Did the same quick test as yesterday in my previous campaign, and I like far more this diplomacy version so far. After getting military access and sharing enemies, it's reasonable to sign a defensive alliance. However, I really like that despite having very high relationships with a faction, they won't easily sign military alliance unless they feel quite weak (in the previous version, it was very easy to get military alliance after military access). So, it seems you found the sweet spot between alliances, they feel distinct now

Respecting military access and trespassing penalties reduction, I still can't say if they're the right values. As you said, it may help AI factions to declare war among them later on, so I'm a bit dubious... All depends on how long these trespassing penalties stay between factions...

Going to start the same Arevaci campaign and will let u know how it goes. Cheers

[Mouth Of Sauron]

Great mod thank you. How about nerfing down camp arrow towers and barricade strenght of fortified stance ? Sarmatian and venetian full stacks of enemy cant even break down the barricades before they flee. In town battles barricades work just fine.

[Ygraine]

@jdofo

Awesome & thanks! I might take Flying Fox's suggestion and take a look at imperium level expansionism penalties. Perhaps a larger negative later on will make mid/end-game more interesting since large allies will start disliking each other and that way access won't be a problem.

@Mouth of Sauron

Thanks! The fortified stance has always been OP in DeI (don't recall how it worked in vanilla), especially for Romans who have the least movement point cost to build it. I can nerf the barricade hp a bit (if I find it), for now I ramped up movement point cost to higher and made sure that towers will burn your own walls if the fighting continues long enough (opening the gaps and also hitting your own men with the "exploding" lumber, lol).

Not sure how else to nerf it, except for increasing movement point cost more. Might be mistaken but I think camp towers share the same stats as barbarian city towers - so if I nerf the former, the latter ones will become weaker too. Going to investigate this next week when I have some spare time.

[jdofo]

@jdofo

Awesome & thanks! I might take Flying Fox's suggestion and take a look at imperium level expansionism penalties. Perhaps a larger negative later on will make mid/end-game more interesting since large allies will start disliking each other and that way access won't be a problem.

It's actually a great idea! May help to get things more interesting later on, and increase hate towards big empires, as in history.

[Mouth Of Sauron]

Thanks for your answer . Is it possible to edit the amount of placeables and / or change the barricades for rocks , stakes and firetraps ?

[Eldgrimr]

Just a question. Why were client states removed?

[Ygraine]

Thanks for your answer . Is it possible to edit the amount of placeables and / or change the barricades for rocks , stakes and firetraps ?

Yes it is. I already changed the amount of traps significantly from vanilla DeI. What did you have in mind?

Just a question. Why were client states removed?

Client state behaviour is one of the biggest complaints the DeI team gets. Usually when the player has more than two client states, they constantly go to war against each other and you have no way to intervene as the overlord. With tributaries (renamed satrapies) this issue is non-existent and they will instead fight your enemies.

[Eldgrimr]

Would it be possible to make a version compatible with the new Ancient Empires submod? The Roman legions have different stats than they do with this submod.

[jdofo]

Ohh man, the newest Arevaci campaign is even tougher than the previous one!!!

After taking Iplacea (Carpetani went to attack Carthago Nova and I conquered their settlement), both Lusitannan and Turdetani declared me war... They're not allies but they seem to fight in coordination against me (Lusotannan sending armies from south-west, and Turdetani through south-east path). I managed to destroy 4 of their armies (2 of each faction), and I was only able to hold Carpetania during 7 years (4TPY) due to low supplies (AI armies were very affected). However, the 0% non-replenishment force me to retreat to Celtiberia and I just lost Iplacea... but they keep sending armies...!!! Isn't AI affected by population shortage? Carpetania has no more population, despite only replenishing my main and only army.

Respecting alliances, I have seen more but reasonable ones. I managed to sign military access and defensive alliances with Cantabri (hold Gallic tribes) and Gallaeci (help against Lusotannan). I have very good relationships with Edetani, but they still don't want alliance neither to help against Turdetani (they're doing very well, conquered all eastern/southern-eastern coast). Well, maybe they didn't like my trade agreement with Carthage, but I manage to keep long Carpetanian war against Lusotannan and Turdetani thanks to it. Despite selecting war targets, my allies ignore me (Cantabri is very busy fighting a Gallic Confederation; on the other hand, Averni is allied with Massalia and is fighting the confederation as well) and my only hope is that Gallaeci manages to besiege Lustonnan capital, in order to distract them and manage to retake Iplacea, while resisting in Celtiberia and defeating Turdetani's armies (they are coming)...

Suggestions/Doubts:

1) Is it possible to increase battle assistance/support positive diplomatic benefits, so that they're higher than trespassing penalty (e.g. Cantabri helped Gallaeci against Lusotannan)? Hard to understand that trespassing negative penalty could be higher than risking your army and fight the common enemy of your neighbour... That way, if you/AI infiltrate another faction's land but they support you/them in battle, there is a balanced and positive diplomatic outcome from the previous trespassing.

2) How are we suposed to sign a peace treaty, if you have almost no income and you're resisting? Releasing always their captured troops? I guess it would be logical to sign a peace treaty with a faction which is destroying your armies, but as soon as I could take advantage of the victory, they have a new one coming... In M2TW, you could give a settlement to your enemy in order to sign a peace treaty... I would have signed it with any of the 2 and have given Iplacea some years ago for only fighting one enemy at a time...

[Ygraine]

Would it be possible to make a version compatible with the new Ancient Empires submod? The Roman legions have different stats than they do with this submod.

What does the mod do? Adds unique legion-units to DeI?

I'd have to get permission from the authors to add this first and the mod is quite large due to the new textures/meshes (490mb), so I can't integrate it completely due to size.
One possible method would be to keep the large texture/mesh as a separate download.
I also looked a little inside the pack, it's not just the stats but also other merges that need to be made (manpower script etc). I'd have to go through each table to check in case the mod uses any of the formations and other stuff I've disabled.

Ohh man, the newest Arevaci campaign is even tougher than the previous one!!!

After taking Iplacea (Carpetani went to attack Carthago Nova and I conquered their settlement), both Lusitannan and Turdetani declared me war... They're not allies but they seem to fight in coordination against me (Lusotannan sending armies from south-west, and Turdetani through south-east path). I managed to destroy 4 of their armies (2 of each faction), and I was only able to hold Carpetania during 7 years (4TPY) due to low supplies (AI armies were very affected). However, the 0% non-replenishment force me to retreat to Celtiberia and I just lost Iplacea... but they keep sending armies...!!! Isn't AI affected by population shortage? Carpetania has no more population, despite only replenishing my main and only army.

Respecting alliances, I have seen more but reasonable ones. I managed to sign military access and defensive alliances with Cantabri (hold Gallic tribes) and Gallaeci (help against Lusotannan). I have very good relationships with Edetani, but they still don't want alliance neither to help against Turdetani (they're doing very well, conquered all eastern/southern-eastern coast). Well, maybe they didn't like my trade agreement with Carthage, but I manage to keep long Carpetanian war against Lusotannan and Turdetani thanks to it. Despite selecting war targets, my allies ignore me (Cantabri is very busy fighting a Gallic Confederation; on the other hand, Averni is allied with Massalia and is fighting the confederation as well) and my only hope is that Gallaeci manages to besiege Lustonnan capital, in order to distract them and manage to retake Iplacea, while resisting in Celtiberia and defeating Turdetani's armies (they are coming)...

Suggestions/Doubts:

1) Is it possible to increase battle assistance/support positive diplomatic benefits, so that they're higher than trespassing penalty (e.g. Cantabri helped Gallaeci against Lusotannan)? Hard to understand that trespassing negative penalty could be higher than risking your army and fight the common enemy of your neighbour... That way, if you/AI infiltrate another faction's land but they support you/them in battle, there is a balanced and positive diplomatic outcome from the previous trespassing.

2) How are we suposed to sign a peace treaty, if you have almost no income and you're resisting? Releasing always their captured troops? I guess it would be logical to sign a peace treaty with a faction which is destroying your armies, but as soon as I could take advantage of the victory, they have a new one coming... In M2TW, you could give a settlement to your enemy in order to sign a peace treaty... I would have signed it with any of the 2 and have given Iplacea some years ago for only fighting one enemy at a time...

Your battle-reports make me want to start an Iberian campaign!


1. Battle support value can be buffed! I don't mind if it's higher since it makes sense. I'll add it to the next big patch.

2. Since CA never bothered to add gift region/demand region, we sadly can't do anything about this (hardcoded).

Currently there's three reasons an enemy kingdom would sign peace with you: 1. Common enemies resulting in high enough relations for peace. 2. You've beaten them so badly and they're on the verge of being conquered (they can offer tributary or just peace). 3. You've released enough prisoners and offer them payment for peace.
I don't think there is another way to do this, at least none that I've come to think of.




As for the trade "issue" you have, it's part of the diplomacy behaviour. Kingdoms don't like when you trade with their enemies - I've had the same thing in my Pontus campaign. Seleukidai didn't want to trade with me (+70 green) until Ptolematoi broke our trade agreement. That same turn Seleukidai offered trade themselves (after rejecting trade for like a full year - 24 TPY).





---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Next DV update will be a big one, we're finally integrating the "All factions playable" submod by Dresden (yay)! Keep writing down feedback until then so I can release all fixes in one larger update.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Feeling industrious lately ???
The AFP submod would be a nice addition indeed.

[Maetharin]

BTW would it be possible to mod the balance of power bar and how much it influences AI decisions?
IMO it doesn´t really do much, aside from showing me how much money and armies the other faction has.

[djensen2010]

Is there a sub thread to discuss strategy for this mod? If not Ill ask here... but how the heck does one mansge to compete as Rome? I end up at war with 2+ factions every time and unable to field more than one quality stack to the enemies at least 2 stacks. Ive only narrowly held of Epirus by using my small fleet to sink any armies trying to cross the strait but with public order problems I can never march my army to conquer Tarsus. Etruscans muster 2 stacks and the Syracuse comes in with men and ships... perhaps im coming at it wrong with a quality over quantity approach. Im pretty seasoned at total war playing since M2 but this is quite the challenge, but dont get me wrong, its much appreciated! As for my strategy I started by defeating Epirus' armies on italy then moving up to defeat the Etruscans. However when I conqured their settlment Im left with -25 PO for 25 turns....rip to any chance at a stable province while trying to fight off Epirus, Syracuse and either a celt or illyrian nation. Let me know your guys strat, Id be interested to see what you guys did to combat these difficulties. Also playing as Nobiles if that makes a difference.

[Ygraine]

BTW would it be possible to mod the balance of power bar and how much it influences AI decisions?
IMO it doesn´t really do much, aside from showing me how much money and armies the other faction has.

Haven't looked at the power bar and if it's even moddable so I cannot comment on this! Are you aware of any mods that alter it?

Is there a sub thread to discuss strategy for this mod? If not Ill ask here... but how the heck does one mansge to compete as Rome? I end up at war with 2+ factions every time and unable to field more than one quality stack to the enemies at least 2 stacks. Ive only narrowly held of Epirus by using my small fleet to sink any armies trying to cross the strait but with public order problems I can never march my army to conquer Tarsus. Etruscans muster 2 stacks and the Syracuse comes in with men and ships... perhaps im coming at it wrong with a quality over quantity approach. Im pretty seasoned at total war playing since M2 but this is quite the challenge, but dont get me wrong, its much appreciated! As for my strategy I started by defeating Epirus' armies on italy then moving up to defeat the Etruscans. However when I conqured their settlment Im left with -25 PO for 25 turns....rip to any chance at a stable province while trying to fight off Epirus, Syracuse and either a celt or illyrian nation. Let me know your guys strat, Id be interested to see what you guys did to combat these difficulties. Also playing as Nobiles if that makes a difference.

You can post here if you like as there are no separate subforums for submods!

I haven't played the Romans in GC yet myself so I cannot comment on how to proceed with them. I did play with them in CiG though for a bit and it was fairly enjoyable! One of my friends who played them in GC said that it was a tough nut to crack Pyrrhus first but once that was done and the Etruscans were gone he could continue up north into the Po valley. Apparently keeping half an army at the southern town is enough to keep Syracuse at bay.

Early game I always use cheap troops (no matter what faction I play) with only a few good units, since the AI mostly does the same. Due to the Romans having some of the most expensive troops I'd probably want to mostly use levy-class units early. As for taking Taras from the Greeks, you could use a "trick". Siege it with a small force (4-5 cheap units) and have your real force standing beside it. Make sure there's a supply route into the region too - that way you can wait them out without taking attrition with your main force from besieging (and no famine in case supplies end)

The PO negative was nerfed from -35 to -25 a few patches ago!

Dignitary agents are very important in DV (I've increased the amount you can have, but they also cost a bit more than in vanilla DeI) for maintaining your kingdom in all its aspects. Economy, public order, culture, empire maintenance, building -% construction costs and research bonuses all come in handy from their selection of skills. I suggest the first thing you do is to tech so you can hire more dignitaries. Also keep at least one general in each province as a "city governor". Only level governor skills with these characters, it will boost your public order/income by quite a lot as they become better and better at governing (and they're also a bonus to your garrison if you get attacked).



And now for a small preview...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's almost done now, yay! All factions are now playable (with some exceptions in the DLC campaigns) - still need to fix some wrong cultures before the update is ready though. It should be ready for release at the end of the week, unless we encounter some issues.