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Thread: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.5 - Updated 2019-08-21)

  1. #161
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    I know the feeling, but if you know they're going to die 100% the next turn it might be better to disband them right away. That way you'll get more income that turn from less upkeep and you'll save your general from dying too!

    Speaking of generals since it takes a lot more exp to level them than in normal DeI, once you have one with a few levels they become very valuable. I got really annoyed when I managed to lose even a level 3 one since even that level requires time and investment. My friends who play coop in DV got really enraged when one of their level 6 generals got killed by a random stone thrown by a slinger at 117/120 bodyguards left
    One of my favorite things about dv is the ridiculous amount of ammunition missile units get. Like scythians archers would get 40+ arrows at the start I believe. And with the generals leveling up I usually get logistician or the ranged bonuses. Takes so long to level up now, I have never valued 5+ range for archers before in my life... until today!

  2. #162
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Yes, since armies often had extra ammunition available in battles from their camps/local reserves/extra baggage along with them I felt I could increase the ammo count since it wouldn't break immersion.
    Unfortunately those camps/extra supplies aren't represented in game (the baggage train unit is kind of that, but it takes up a slot and isn't always available for everyone) so this was the only way of doing it. You get even more ammo when you're garrisoned, illustrating the reserves that cities/towns keep - be it for the garrison militia or simply for the local hunters who use them to hunt wildlife. Garrison units have more ammo by default.

    With this I felt it was finally possible to play a steppe faction or Parthia properly and have a chance against heavy armoured infantry-focused kingdoms if you micro your ranged units properly. But heavy armour units hiding behind good shields will still be tough to kill.
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  3. #163

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    I've noticed that when I hover over units on the battle map, they're always highlighted in red. Both the enemies and my own units. Is this a bug?

  4. #164
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Fox View Post
    I've noticed that when I hover over units on the battle map, they're always highlighted in red. Both the enemies and my own units. Is this a bug?
    Yes. I was experimenting with new 3dui colours but forgot to remove it from the pack before releasing the update to the public.

    It'll be gone next update. My apologies!
    (2nd position - Gameplay Mods-category - 2016 Modding Awards.)

  5. #165

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    Yes. I was experimenting with new 3dui colours but forgot to remove it from the pack before releasing the update to the public.

    It'll be gone next update. My apologies!
    Thank you for the quick reaction.

    I really like pretty much all the changes you made with this submod, except for the large amount of armies the AI sends my way. It's a bit over the top. Sure, it adds to the challenge, but it doesn't feel fair or realistic. How can this small town keep sending large armies after being defeated several times?

  6. #166
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    I understand not everyone feel comfortable with fighting several enemy forces but it's part of the challenge and synergies very well with the increased experience required to level up both generals and the soldiers themselves. Also if you play with 41-units per army a small faction will only field 1½ army instead of three 20 ones at most.

    As for realism the game has a very shoddy representation of regions and provinces in general. If you for example look at Attica in-game, it only has Athens there. If you now look at Attica on a real map you'll see this:


    Each city could or would send some men to the common war effort of Athens (since they are the "owners" of the whole region in the game), meaning it actually makes sense that they can field several 20-unit armies.
    Boeotia (to the left of Attica) isn't even present in the Grand Campaign map at all and it's fairly big, being between Attica and Thessaly. That means it's part of those two regions too and it's like this for many of the other regions in-game.

    Here's an excellent mod you can use alongside DV or normal DeI that represents some of these extra towns in different locations of the map:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...archtext=towns
    (2nd position - Gameplay Mods-category - 2016 Modding Awards.)

  7. #167

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    I understand not everyone feel comfortable with fighting several enemy forces but it's part of the challenge and synergies very well with the increased experience required to level up both generals and the soldiers themselves.
    It's definitely a matter of taste. There are a few "more AI armies" mods on the steam workshop, so many people like it. I also know of one mod that reduced the number of armies you can have at a time. What I dislike is the swarming of armies on the campaign map. It looks messy, and the AI doesn't always deal well with reinforcements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    Also if you play with 41-units per army a small faction will only field 1½ army instead of three 20 ones at most.
    That is interesting. I assumed it would simply field about as many armies, but bigger ones. I might give that a go. Though large armies do cause a bit of a stutter, might have to look into that first.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    As for realism the game has a very shoddy representation of regions and provinces in general. If you for example look at Attica in-game, it only has Athens there. If you now look at Attica on a real map you'll see this:

    True, but I can't really blame CA for this. Imagine how big the map would have to look, and how many factions there would be, if they tried to be more accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    Each city could or would send some men to the common war effort of Athens (since they are the "owners" of the whole region in the game), meaning it actually makes sense that they can field several 20-unit armies.
    Boeotia (to the left of Attica) isn't even present in the Grand Campaign map at all and it's fairly big, being between Attica and Thessaly. That means it's part of those two regions too and it's like this for many of the other regions in-game.
    You're point are valid, and I can't really make a case against it.


    By the way, I love the larger size of defenses in this mod. Fireballs weren't worth using before; but now, it's a hilarious way to start an ambush.

  8. #168
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Fox View Post
    It's definitely a matter of taste. There are a few "more AI armies" mods on the steam workshop, so many people like it. I also know of one mod that reduced the number of armies you can have at a time. What I dislike is the swarming of armies on the campaign map. It looks messy, and the AI doesn't always deal well with reinforcements.

    That is interesting. I assumed it would simply field about as many armies, but bigger ones. I might give that a go. Though large armies do cause a bit of a stutter, might have to look into that first.



    True, but I can't really blame CA for this. Imagine how big the map would have to look, and how many factions there would be, if they tried to be more accurate.
    You're point are valid, and I can't really make a case against it.


    By the way, I love the larger size of defenses in this mod. Fireballs weren't worth using before; but now, it's a hilarious way to start an ambush.


    The increased army caps also has another purpose, it allows you to have more governor generals across your cities and towns. Unfortunately the army cap in normal DeI is way too small once your kingdom is medium-sized. I felt that your economy should be the main factor hindering you from fielding "too many" armies, generals and agents instead of an artificial low cap.
    If you know how to edit army caps, you can simply lower it in your game and the AI shouldn't field as many armies at the same time.

    You can try a number below 41, 30 for example. I haven't tried it myself so I cannot say how many separate hosts they will field with that amount.

    Yes, I'm not naive to expect a super accurate map or anything but they could have decreased the sizes of the cities/towns (it's quite useless actually) and added some visual small buildings here and there representing the other cities/towns in the regions (like the mod I linked does).

    As for the traps, I agree with you completely! I felt that in normal DeI the amount of traps weren't tailored to fit the ultra unit size. Especially spike traps were completely useless (if I remember correctly you had two of those in normal DeI), and even though I've added like 6 of them or so they still only do a miniscule amount of impact most of the time. Fireballs are awesome! It just sucks that CA never programmed the AI to deploy traps in actual town-battles. They only use it when they sally out.

    We've been trying to figure out a way to expand the deployment zone in town/city defences to a bit OUTSIDE the walls/town for the defender. If this is possible it would mean you could deploy the wooden walls outside the town itself, which would make a lot more sense than just blocking random streets. Then we'd also add more wooden walls, so the players could actually create their own makeshift wall manually around the town.
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  9. #169

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    The increased army caps also has another purpose, it allows you to have more governor generals across your cities and towns. Unfortunately the army cap in normal DeI is way too small once your kingdom is medium-sized. I felt that your economy should be the main factor hindering you from fielding "too many" armies, generals and agents instead of an artificial low cap.
    True, but the AI doesn't use generals as governors as far as I know. This is a general issue with great additions by mods, that the AI doesn't really make use of it.
    I do agree that money should be the limiting factor, not a cap. So perhaps it's not the army cap itself I have issue with, but the wealth of the AI and their ability to raise armies fast.
    It's not easy balancing a game like this. The AI is quite dumb, so giving them more resources is necessary. Give them too much and it'll feel wrong.

    By the way, how does the AI deal with DEI's population system? Do they keep depleting their population in order to raise armies, or do they in some way take it into account?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    If you know how to edit army caps, you can simply lower it in your game and the AI shouldn't field as many armies at the same time.
    I think I'll try the larger armies first, see what that does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    We've been trying to figure out a way to expand the deployment zone in town/city defences to a bit OUTSIDE the walls/town for the defender. If this is possible it would mean you could deploy the wooden walls outside the town itself, which would make a lot more sense than just blocking random streets. Then we'd also add more wooden walls, so the players could actually create their own makeshift wall manually around the town.
    That would be great, hope you work it out.
    Though I don't feel the AI even takes these walls into account. They appear to just try and run through them. Rather than walls, I would like to have seen towns and cities that were a bit more defensible just by the design of the city, the landscape. Some towns are actually pretty good, especially barbarian towns with their hills and raised town centers. Sparta is good too, except for the capture point in front of the defensible position instead of on the defensible position.

  10. #170
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    You're having a good and informative conversation here guys.

  11. #171

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Just started a new Iceni campaign with the larger armies (40 units, nice even number).
    What's the first thing my Retae enemies do? Attack with a puny 16 unit army. I suppose disbanding my only army made attacking Camulodunon hard to resist.

    My other enemies haven't attacked yet, but their 40 unit armies already terrify me. So far, no swarms of armies, I'm happy.

  12. #172
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Blame CA for the limited AI But they do actually sometimes pick governor-skills. You'll notice it if you ever confederate with another kingdom and receive their generals.

    It's easier to change the cap than rework the income completely for the AI. The income is also required later in the game for them not to run out of money in their treasury, something I experienced in one of the beta versions of DV when I was testing mid-game(200+ turns). Otherwise they will never be a threat to the player later on when they have several regions. They are also not the best in choosing what kind of buildings to build, so you wouldn't be able to expect them to support their economy with building revenue.


    I agree on the city map designs themselves, sadly it's not moddable as far as I know as CA didn't bother to release tools for it like they did with Warhammer and their older games.


    Hope you enjoy your massive battles, but remember that it can be mentally taxing sometimes to play many large battles like this in a row so I recommend taking breaks And it's an excellent time to have a governor in your cities/towns with extra troops, because the default garrison has very little chance to defeat a host this big.
    Last edited by Ygraine; June 11, 2017 at 08:09 AM.
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  13. #173

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Started yesterday (finally!) an Arevaci campaign to test DV (played recently DeI 1.2 Arevaci campaign with all hardcore submods, good for comparison) and I'm really enjoying it! This time, it was quite hard to conquer Carpetani, as the army I can afford is not enough to assault their city with their army inside. Had to provoke them during 2 years raiding their lands (previously offered peace agreement, which I accepted due to income but I still continued to raid) in order to force them to declare Arevaci war and leave their settlement towards Numantia. Won with a phyrric victory thanks to the new combat overhaul, which was very tough to win (my units were of lower quality, overall) and I was very close to lose the battle, which I fully love Seriously, the battle now feels more strategic, units take far longer to flee, they mostly come back after a while, you have time to flank with cavalry, skirmishes, AI seems smart enough to hold the lines, flank and perform reasonably in the battle... I'm very impressed, as you said, it feels more rewarding to conquer a faction after all this suffering!!!

    In contrast, in my previous Arevaci DeI 1.2 (no a or b) campaign, I simply had to recruit faster (get some mercenaries) in order to get a better army than Carpetani, siege their city and wait for turns until their sally, despite the balance of the battle was in favour of Carpetani. In fact, I previously used the same strategy to test the difference with DV, and logically, Carpetani sallied out the next turn after being sieged to take advantage of their bigger numbers to break the siege...

    On the other hand, I have tendency to make trade agreements with Cantabri and Edetani, not just for the sake of the trade income but to improve relationships with them, and probably make alliances with them in order to secure northern (gallic tribes) and south-eastern fronts (Carthaginians) until I control most of Iberian Peninsula. Carthage declared war to Arevaci just right after conquering Carpetani. Turdetani and Edetani are already in war with Carthage and their puppets, so I considerably improved my relationships with them as a consecuence. I'm not able to make a non-agression pact with Cantabri and Edetani yet, which I like. However, I'm able to confederate (high chance) with Edetani (90 something value, very friendly) next turn after being declared war by Carthage (not with Turdetani, despite having better relationships and sharing the same enemies as with Edetani), but I'm not even able to make a non-agression pact with Edetani in the same turn (low). Is that normal? Shouldn't be more probable to start first with non-agression pact and after many years of good terms, defensive alliance or so, being able to confederate? I tested to confederate with Edetani, but I mostly inherit -8000 income debts per turn (AI turn cost per unit difference, I guess), so I won't do it haha Just informing in case there's something wrong there.

    Thank you so much for your work!!! Keep it up, it's reaching the balance and fun some of us are seeking! Cheers.

    Edit: Forgot to mention that I'm playing with DeI 1.2 Hardcore population submod, the one Greek strategos asked u about, to force me to not disband warrior classes but freemen. That way, I believe campaign would be even more challenging, making every defeat and the loss of warrior classes' units more dramatic.
    Last edited by jdofo; June 12, 2017 at 11:18 AM.

  14. #174
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Sounds like you're having fun!

    I've also goaded my trade partners into declaring war on me by raiding them - because I didn't want to declare war myself and get a massive reliability negative which can have dire consequences.

    When the AI wants to confederate with you, it doesn't just take relations into account but also faction strengths, how the AI feels they're doing in their own current wars etc. And yes, you often have to disband the AI armies when you confederate with them, otherwise you'll end up at like -10 000 or so because they spam mercs and stuff.

    As for NA/defensive alliance/military alliance - I lowered the chance of the AI accepting these to stop their spam later in the game. If it's made easier again they will spam you like crazy with all those pacts every time it's their turn, unless everyone hates your guts.
    I can buff it a bit in one of the next patches, but be warned that you might get irritated later on. It's nothing you come across early game though as you haven't encountered enough factions yet for it to be noticeable. But believe me when 10+ factions want to have NA with you and you click end turn...
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  15. #175

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    Definitely Sounds reasonable, then. In fact, Edetani has more military power than me (yellow/red balance in diplomacy is almost red), that's why I was surprised by that...

    Yes, I also suffered the NA/defensive alliance/military alliance spam in my previous Arevaci DeI 1.2 campaign after conquering most of Iberian peninsula... I was getting around 5 offers per turn, which it's quite annoying. In that case, keep it as it is, you know well how everything works internally. Just informing in case it was a bug or a strange behaviour.

    As said, keep it like that, it's challenging but rewarding!

  16. #176

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.1)

    Just a small remark: the seasons seem to fall in the wrong months. I read the following post from you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    I haven't modified seasons other than changing TPY. It's how it works for all TPY mods as far as I'm aware of. Ie spring starting in January, etcetera. Might be that seasons were different back then compared to modern times. Winter started earlier in modern autumn, and ended earlier around january.
    However, I don't think that's true. As far as I know (and I dont' know much about this), the Romans considered spring to start in March.
    I'm not entirely clear as to what exactly is CA's work, DEI's work, or yours. Who added the months?

    I'm back to normal army sizes BTW, too much stuttering and a bit unwieldy.

  17. #177
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 9th june)

    All I've changed in regards of the seasons are the different TPYs and some effects like less reduction to movement (and halved attrition in extreme winter/extreme summer coming up in the next update). I haven't touched when the seasons start or end, nor have I played any other mod that uses this system so I have no idea how it works in those Dresden and/or Litharion made the awesome season feature if I remember correctly.
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  18. #178
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Fox View Post
    Just a small remark: the seasons seem to fall in the wrong months. I read the following post from you:

    However, I don't think that's true. As far as I know (and I dont' know much about this), the Romans considered spring to start in March.
    I'm not entirely clear as to what exactly is CA's work, DEI's work, or yours. Who added the months?
    Μaybe just use the 12tpy version which every month is a turn etc
    It makes more sense for me anyways and it's easier to follow seasons.

  19. #179

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greek strategos View Post
    Μaybe just use the 12tpy version which every month is a turn etc
    It makes more sense for me anyways and it's easier to follow seasons.
    Are you saying spring doesn't start in januari when using the 12 tpy version?

    Also, to be clear, the 12 tpy version among the downloads in the first post is with standard DV, not instead of DV, right?

  20. #180
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    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.1)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Fox View Post
    Are you saying spring doesn't start in januari when using the 12 tpy version?

    Also, to be clear, the 12 tpy version among the downloads in the first post is with standard DV, not instead of DV, right?
    Any of the submods you use from the original post need to be loaded before DV, so yes with Same goes for other mods, for example if you want different AI behaviour on the campaign map you can get a mod that only alters this and load it before DV.




    Patch is out & changelog updated!
    Last edited by Ygraine; June 11, 2017 at 05:35 PM.
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