Icelandic women stage mass action against pay inequality --- again!

[jockmcplop]

Firstly Iceland is very much an example of how equality should be done, and how a society can embrace progressive values without resorting to the petty sniping and needless petty bickering that most Western societies seem obsessed with. When something needs to be done Iceland's population (tiny as it is) seems to be able to band together and demand that it is done.

So thousands of women stopped work at 14:38 a couple of days ago. 14:38 to reflect the relative size of the pay gap. The implications of this were felt all the way through society as women demonstrated that they should not be worth less than men. Kids left school early, meaning whole families had to stop what they were doing, businesses closed etc.

Say what you want about modern feminism, there's very little argument against the idea that women doing the same job as men should be paid the same amount of money. This is less about feminism than very basic equality, and Icelandic women have been demonstrating this for more than 30 years.

Anyway this isn't the first time this action has been taken in Iceland, and the history of it proves how effective it (along with other - more permanent action) ccan be
in 1975 90% of Icelandic women refused to go to work for the day. By 1980 Iceland had the world's first female Prime Minister. Obviously you can't draw a straight line between the two, but it shows how a successful society can, and should, accomodate the will fo the people, it shows how a REAL democracy should work.



By 2005 when this protest took place women left work at 14:08
2008 - 14:25
2016 - 14:38

Iceland has been the world leader in pay equality for the last 6 years running. Why? I would wager that its because their population is motivated and politically active enough to show their government that they care, and that it is in their government's best interest to serve the people as they should.
This is the model of how democracy should work in every civilized country - rather the governments simply watching demonstrations and completely ignoring them. Rather than just a bunch of students and hippies camping outside a bank - this is organized action that proves it own point and shows instead of just preaching.

[Phier]

So does Iceland have a real pay gap or is it the mythical talking points one we bring up in the US where women work less hours and such?

[Mangalore]

So does Iceland have a real pay gap or is it the mythical talking points one we bring up in the US where women work less hours and such?

In most cases in the western world there may be a "mythical" pay gap, it however also in most cases does not account for the entire gap.

[Phier]

In most cases in the western world there may be a "mythical" pay gap, it however also in most cases does not account for the entire gap.

True, though the figure I've seen around is once variables like education, occupation, and hours worked comes into play women make 95 cents per what a male does. A 5% difference could be due to a lot of things such as salary negotiation.

That in itself doesn't seem like a march is in order.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's not a mythical gap. The causes of it are complex, but it's quite significant, almost a 10% gap in the UK. Annoying to see direct democracy over an important point sneered at by sexual assault supporters.

[Twido]

It's not a mythical gap. The causes of it are complex, but it's quite significant, almost a 10% gap in the UK. Annoying to see direct democracy over an important point sneered at by sexual assault supporters.

It is indeed complex and it is a shame that both sides of the discussion are so entrenched that reasonable debate just doesn't happen. I can see no way forwards on this either because it is just too easy to shut down the other sides arguments with an ad hominem.

For myself I am sceptical about the wage gap but not prepared to dismiss the possibility of it either. However, this could be more to do with the sector I work in being more equal than other sectors that I do not come into contact with. If one does not see it first hand then they have to rely on the testimony of others or data provided by other people. Unfortunately the people making a testimony or providing data come across as partisan and untrustworthy.

[mrmouth]

It is indeed complex and it is a shame that both sides of the discussion are so entrenched that reasonable debate just doesn't happen.

It's not just complex but also probably unsolvable. The actual numbers in the US show that the gap exists in gray areas and people trying to actually navigate their way through these have come to the conclusion that the only real gap that could be logically addressed, exists in the household where a woman typically does an average of 50 more hours of housework than a man, per month. Of course you then get into the issue of whether mowing the lawn in the heat of the summer, and general household labor, is more physically taxing than mopping the floor and vacuuming, etc. Not to mention how you would realistically compensate a woman for that.

That last part highlights the absurdity of these debates that we have undertaken in the West. We already picked the low hanging fruit and we are way up on the tree where the air is thin.

And now there are tangible numbers in certain corporate American sectors that have been operating under equality mindsets for a decade or more, that women are making considerably more for less hours worked, while also leading to men being fired in favor of new female hires.


There will be no actual equality in countries more complex, and populated, than Iceland. Im about done with comparisons to rich, small, idealistic European countries. The class systems won't allow for it. They are fundamental to operation. We just need to understand and accept them. So much talk of institutional racism, and all these SJW causes, is actually a class issue. So until robots start doing all the work and we are given a government stipend to live on, there will be different classes, and all the complexity that comes along with it.

[Gäiten]

Well, when I got my first job I did not present/sell myself very good. So I got less paid than a female coworker, (same education, grade and first Job), but she could present/sell herself better.
I have learnt to present myself better and get much beter paid Jobs oer the years.

However, being discriminated and crying for the state to change this (aka give me priviliges now) is much easier than look at yourself and how could I improve my situation.

[IrishBlood]

I agree that the government should ensure basic wage equality, but the biggest issues occur when starting salaries are 'negotiable' depending on their ability to hire someone.

Generally speaking recruiters for a lot of higher paid jobs, particularly in business/sales/marketing/etc, have a minimum and maximum starting salary that they are prepared to offer a new employee. Obviously they would try and get the new starter to accept the lower salary, but if they present/sell themselves well and/or are significantly qualified they would give them the higher wage.

However, generally speaking and for a myriad of reasons, most women will not argue or try and negotiate for a higher salary and are more likely to accept the first offer.

As a bit of an anecdote, a lecturer I had last year for a masters I did told us about an ongoing argument in the university whereby two new professors were hired, one male one female, with virtually the same qualifications and experience and had exactly the same hours and job description but were paid differently. The male professor received a significantly higher starting wage simply because he asked for it. He felt he was worth more than what was being offered and successfully negotiated for the higher wage.

His female counterpart on the other hand took the offer at face value and assumed that it was the maximum amount possible and that it was nonnegotiable. As a result she got paid less. The 'controversy' came out a year or so later when she found out that the male employee was being paid significantly more for doing the same job. I can't really remember what happened next, but I think there was a big dispute over pay because she had signed a contract going by the pay rates she had accepted at the time and it couldn't be changed.

ANYWAY, long story short, always try and push the boundaries to see what you can get. As long as you're not super aggressive it shouldn't effect your chances of being hired as they would almost certainly have offered you the job by that stage anyway, so you have virtually nothing to lose from attempting to negotiate for higher pay. This goes for both men and women, I know plenty of guys who wouldn't even think to argue for more pay!

[conon394]

So does Iceland have a real pay gap or is it the mythical talking points one we bring up in the US where women work less hours and such?

You cite a credible study that fails to adjust for hours worked? Or that located the gap as solely based on hours worked?

[Phier]

You cite a credible study that fails to adjust for hours worked? Or that located the gap as solely based on hours worked?

Busy, first hit.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...ery_man_s.html

[Humble Warrior]

Busy, first hit.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double...ery_man_s.html

Good link, but there are many others. No real economist takes the gender wage gap seriously.

The gender wage gap is complete and utter nonsense.

People who believe in this farce don`t understand that they are just taking general numbers as a whole and saying, `Look, women get paid less than men. Scream!` It simply doesn`t take into account the different working practises of men and women. It uses the barest of information then hopes emotion will do the rest.

If this stupidity gets pushed through, there will be pay inequality against men as women will get paid more for doing less. This is just feminism using greed and stupid people to make a problem where there is none.

Wake up.

[War lord]

We're letting Brietbart right wingers decide what female protest against gender based inequality does and does not constitute feminism now?

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

We're letting Brietbart right wingers decide what female protest against gender based inequality does and does not constitute feminism now?

Yes? more or less it is those who cry most.

[jockmcplop]

So, my right wing friends, how do you account for the fact that the wage gap has decreased in the last 50 years?
Are you saying it used to be a problem but no longer is? That's a bit convenient for your completely obvious right wing woman hating views isn't it?

[Humble Warrior]

So, my right wing friends, how do you account for the fact that the wage gap has decreased in the last 50 years?
Are you saying it used to be a problem but no longer is? That's a bit convenient for your completely obvious right wing woman hating views isn't it?

The facts don`t lie. Logic does not lie.

Your attempts to shame us with your negativity does nothing save make you look extremely defensive. The gender pay gap is a myth.

[Twido]

So, my right wing friends, how do you account for the fact that the wage gap has decreased in the last 50 years?
Are you saying it used to be a problem but no longer is? That's a bit convenient for your completely obvious right wing woman hating views isn't it?

Do you not read this back to yourself and see the problems with it? One does not have to be right wing or women hating to be sceptical about some of the wage gap claims. By phrasing it in such a way, it implies that those that are sceptical are both.

Trying to remain objective about what you are saying, I still fail to see why the wage gap closing/decreasing over recent decades is anything other than expected. I don't think anyone would sensibly question that sexism has been a problem in our past but the question to be answered is if it is still a problem, if so then how much and is it endemic or just affecting certain areas? These questions won't be answered when anyone that questions the wage gap is labelled as a right wing women hater. Since when was being right wing an insult anyway and one may well hate women while holding left wing political views.

[Humble Warrior]

Do you not read this back to yourself and see the problems with it? One does not have to be right wing or women hating to be sceptical about some of the wage gap claims. By phrasing it in such a way, it implies that those that are sceptical are both.

Trying to remain objective about what you are saying, I still fail to see why the wage gap closing/decreasing over recent decades is anything other than expected. I don't think anyone would sensibly question that sexism has been a problem in our past but the question to be answered is if it is still a problem, if so then how much and is it endemic or just affecting certain areas? These questions won't be answered when anyone that questions the wage gap is labelled as a right wing women hater. Since when was being right wing an insult anyway and one may well hate women while holding left wing political views.

Well said. But I am well used to this. A few years a go a Feminist tried to get me banned from this very forum for disagreeing with her. Just the other day someone labelled me as a communist for my view. It just shows me I`m on the right track.

Men and women need to speak out when these kinds of people are becoming the very fascists they pretend not to be. It`s why certain people such as a Professor in Canada and others are publicly speaking out against the attempts to shut down anyone who dares diagree with them.

[jockmcplop]

Humble warrior just a couple of months ago you started a (subsequently proven) hideously inaccurate thread in which what you call 'femenazis' were supposedly meant to be making wolf whistling a crime. You hate women, that is true. The fact that a woman would dare to ask to be treated in an equal manner to men makes you angry, your post history says that.

Twido I was referring to a ouple of individuals on here specifically, not everyone who questions the pay gap. There is definitely a conversation to be had about that, but some people are unable to have it because they resent the idea of equality, Humble Warrior being one of them.

[Prodromos]

This is just childish.

It would have been much better, to spend a few hours researching the wage gap and its actual causes, instead of literally throwing an international hissy fit about it.

If an employer could get away with paying women less for the exact same job performance, it's a mystery how any guy gets hired over a woman. It's all a male conspiracy to keep women barefoot and in the kitchen, I guess.