Let's talk about Ireland for a second. How do you see this faction playing out? Roster, weapons, and so forth.
"When it came to ambushes, raiding, reconnaissance work and the murky, scrappy techniques of inter-clan warfare, the ceithearnach was absolutely first rate."
Fergus Cannan-. Warfare in Ireland.
So this is one of those factions which were asymmetrical in their fighting style compared to the style which favored two linear lines meeting. It was based on raiding and crippling an enemy economically, which suited the bogs, marches and forested areas of the Irish fiefs. Their performance in pitched battles were lacking and they usually lost. They compensated by picking fights based on a guerrilla style of warfare were they excelled almost always. Since the Total War engine is so heavily swayed towards a 'pitch battle' centric modus of fighting, this can be a challenge to balance. The other problem is how Total War engine lean so very heavily towards the 19th century perspective on military technology (that uses in heavier armour was inevitable when enough resources were accumulated, rather than the context of the topography and fighting style, is what dictates the type of armour being used), I struggle to see how the Irish style of fighting can be portrayed at all. On the campaign map, you can put your army in a raiding stance, but serves to only dodge the tackling the issue directly. This style of warfare would characterized the whole period of the mod. What is the answer to the Irish problem?
I fear a historical Irish faction is just just going to be run over by heavy cavalry. Anyone would like to speculate as to how Ireland can avoid this problem? I never bought the Celtic culture pack for Total War: Attila, but do you guys think copying the DLC mechanics will be sufficient or does Ireland need further changes or alterations? Do you have any ideas? Should they just have heavy armour en masse or can they realistically work without it? This question also is related to alot of other factions, for example 15th century Spain who favored mountain, guerillia, and light sword and buckler, over pitched battles of two linear lines closing in.
Native Irish forces
Exceptional use of javelins.
Good use of raiders (stealing cattle or killing peasants of opposing fiefs).
Guerrilla fighters (surprise attacks on convoys or an unprepared enemy).
Armour virtually non-existing among regular natives judging by artwork and eyewitness accounts.
Good mix of smaller and agile cavalry (basically ponies).
Swift infantry.
Not suited for pitched battles.
They had no answer to the English regimental use of archers and heavy infantry.
Foreigners (English, Norse, etc.) were described as gray men or blue armoured, due to their use of mail.
They didn't field heavy cavalry to match the English.
No dedicated archer companies.
"...Ireland is one of the worst countries to make war in, or to conquer; for there are such impenetrable and extensive forests, lakes, and bogs, there is no knowing how to pass them, and carry on war advantageously. It is so thinly inhabited that, whenever the Irish please, they desert the towns and take refuge in the forests, and live in huts made of boughs, like wild beasts; and whenever they perceive any parties advancing with hostile dispositions, and about to enter their country, they fly to such narrow passes, it is impossible to follow them. When they find a favorable opportunity to attack their enemies to advantage, which frequently happens, from their knowledge of the country, they fail not to seize it..."
One Anglo-Irish squire description of the Irish style of fighting to Friossart. Medieval Irish 1300-1487, by Kevin Boyland. Talking about the medieval Irish style of warfare, military units, institutions and so forth.
While the Norse mercenaries were present in Irish armies as bodyguards, they didn't constitute a majority of all Irish force. If this aspect is blown out of proportions in order to give the Irish a chance in big pitched battles, then I feel this faction will be more Norse/English, than Irish. Gallowglass'
Description of Isle men
"At this time, about the feast of Whitsundtide, Hasculf, who had been king of Dublin, sailed into the Liffy with sixty ships full of Norwegians and men of the isles, and burning with revange for his former discomfiture. Landing from their ships, in all haste, they sat down before the east game of the city, prepared to assult it. They were under the command of John the Woode, or John the Mad, for such is the signification of the word, for were all warriors, armed in Danish fashion, some having long breastplates, others shirts of mail; their shields were round, and coloured red, and were bound about with iron. They were iron-hearted as well as iron-armed men. "
p. 30. http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/conquest_ireland.pdf http://www.warfare.altervista.org/WR...ich-12-14C.htm
Archaeology, armour and archery.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"In contemporary Irish sources armour seems to mark a significant difference between Irish and viking, with the consistent suggestion that the Irish did not wear armour, while the Viking did. Both annalistic and narrative texts frequently refer to coats of mail and helmets worn by the Vikings and the unarmoured Irish. Indeed, in two early 12th century texts, Cogad Gaedhel re Gallaibh (Todd 1867, 53, 67-69) and Cathreim Cellachain Chaisil (Bugge 1905, 65-66, 102-3), Irish military failures are specifically attributed to the ineffectiveness of their weapons against the armour of the Vikings. Such testimony to use of armour in Hiberno-Norse Ireland has not, in general, been taken seriously by Historians, but the evidence of arrowheads, although indirect, suggest that it may have a greater basis in fact than has hitherto been recognized. "
"There is little evidence to suggest that the Irish learned to use the bow from the Norse, and archaeological evidence for archery on native Irish sites of the period is almost non-existant. Remarkably, however, one of Europe's finest early medieval longbows was found in a late 10th century context at the crannog of Ballinderry, Co. Westmeath (Hencken 1935-37, 139, 225; Fig.8: D). The bow (Fig. 2), of yew wood, is currently 185 cm in length but one end is missing and it's original lenth was probably c.190cm. The crannog of Ballinderry, in the midlands of Ireland, produced a full range of "classic" Viking weaponry: A sword, battleaxe, two spearheads and a socketed knife were also found and together with the bow, seems to provide a graphical example of the extent to which Viking weaponry could on occasion be adopted by the Irish. Regardless of weather it was used by the Irish or a viking archer, there can be little doubt that this bow is ultimately of Viking origin background. "
p. 4. Archery in Ireland.
One example of engagement of English vs Irish
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Irish forces defeated by English forces. "One of these, namely John de Curci, together with a strong force of foot and horse, thought proper to make a hostile incursion on that province of Ireland called Ulster, which is separated from the kingdom of Scotland only by a narrow strait. [...] The approach of the enemy, however, being known, the Irish consulted the legate what ought to be done in such an emergency, he replied, that they ought to fight for their country; and he gave them his benediction with solemn prayers on the eve of the conflict. Thus inspired, they rushed with ardor to the battle; but being easily overpowered by men clad in mail, and by the archers, they fled before them. The city of Down was consequently taken."
"...a kind of footman, slightly armed with a sword and target [a small shield] of wood, or a bow and shief of arrows with barbed heads, or else three darts, which they cast with a wonderful facility and neatness..."
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; October 21, 2016 at 08:49 AM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
A very good point, and an excellent question. It will be difficult to achieve this with the total war enigen which is, as you say, mainly made for "pitched battles".
I guess the only way you can make a faction consisting of mainly "light irregulars" is on the campaign map, not the battle map, by giving them an increased possibilty to retreat instead of actually fighting a battle, while not leaving the region, and also having a mechanism where a region can not be controlled by any other faction as long as there are irregulars in the area.
A very good point, and an excellent question. It will be difficult to achieve this with the total war enigen which is, as you say, mainly made for "pitched battles".
I guess the only way you can make a faction consisting of mainly "light irregulars" is on the campaign map, not the battle map, by giving them an increased possibilty to retreat instead of actually fighting a battle, while not leaving the region, and also having a mechanism where a region can not be controlled by any other faction as long as there are irregulars in the area.
Welcome to the TWC.
Yeah good points. Perhaps some form of edicts or factions traits.
One thing that could be done in battle, is to give the completely irregular and unarmoured Irish units speed or endurance surpassing that of regular line infantry. It would be similar to how Light horses currently have 125 speed compared to the Heavy horses of ~90. This would allow them to constantly harass their enemies with darts and javelins, while not engaging in melee.
I think experimenting with some form of 'slowing' or 'crippling' effect could be interesting to incorporate, as a debuff. Perhaps this side effect could be part of getting your face impaled with Irish Darts. I'm not quite sure how, but it would be another mechanic to allow the Irish to keep distance from their enemies.
Good points anyway.
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
I think experimenting with some form of 'slowing' or 'crippling' effect could be interesting to incorporate, as a debuff. Perhaps this side effect could be part of getting your face impaled with Irish Darts. I'm not quite sure how, but it would be another mechanic to allow the Irish to keep distance from their enemies.
Totally doable.
However, keep in mind, if Irish darts can do this, why can't English arrows do the same, then? Uniqueness is acceptable, but giving some faction's thing unique when practically the same thing from other factions should also can do it, is a bit gamey.
I see it as nonplayable frankly of too little importance on the general map. Much smaller than other factions that are not playable and should. Except for the fact that they were invaded by Vikings and put to respect by the English of no great importance. Like Scotland and Wales just a bunch of riots against England and mercenary market. Navarre too.
I'd like to see the gallowglas mercenaries. I agree with Visarion on whether Ireland should be playable. If it was the Charlemagne map, then Ireland would stand a better chance in making it to the list, but not in the main map imo.
I would also like to point out that if the Irish might conquer an English region, then the way to get armored units would open up. I presume those units would visually look like a "what-if" version of an armored Irish knight (if knight is even the right word to describe them), similair to how Fawn made Late Templar units while the order was mostly destroyed during that time.
I believe the Irish would be very interesting gameplay wise, just because they are so lightly armed and armoured, but ofcourse the decision lies in the hands of the team .
Last edited by Filips Augustus; October 21, 2016 at 01:12 PM.
My idea is that the Irish factions get a variation of Galloglaich such as heavy spearmen with shields and a salvo of darts, a heavy axe shock unit with a salvo of darts, and then a variant of regular infantry with small round targets and a salvo of darts.
The Galloglaich will function as a unit to hold the line.
The rest of the Irish infantry roster are slingers, light two handed shock unit with darts, spearmen with darts, sword infantry with darts. These units will all have the ability to deploy on the map out of starting boundary and are equipped with the ability to better hide in vegetation. 14-15th centuries will have upgraded versions of these very cost effective units, but will start to see some professional "what-if" units that don better equipment to tackle the latter era armies. This is in assumption that Ireland leaves the island and manages to conquer regions.
For cavalry we have horseboys which are light javelinmen on horseback, and a noble medium armoured shock cavalry on horseback. Both cavalry units are very fast.
I think the Irish would be a challenging sadistically fun faction to play. Considering that the campaign would begin by having to defeat several rebel groups in forts on the island. That to represent having to become the High King of Ireland like Brian Borough
The main problem about the Irish roster would be the start date of 1200. During the 13th century Irish warfare changed from one based on levys of troops to one based upon mercenaries. This change over was largely complete by the end of the 13th century. Rather than increase the workload for the mod it would be better to focus on the "mercenary" era of warfare. Even at that your still talking about at least 12 units (more if you include a spear and a bow version of gallowglass, + anglo Irish units, and I can't find the end date for this mod so it could potentially be well over 20). I don't think you need to include what if units.
I'll do an effort post of Irish units later. Back during MTW Kingdoms I was going to do a sub-mod to improve the Irish roster so I have quite a bit of work done on them. I'll post it all up here.
I think that would be great and it would alleviate some of the problems with javelins. The problem with javelins is that they are so awkward in practice. They put themselves in a compromising position to enemy cavalry and projectiles because they don't brace, become immobile and sluggish to position due to short range. It becomes a micro-managing nightmare trying to use them effectively. Multiply this with 40 unarmoured javelin units and you just want to throw the computer in the dumpster. The demand for another mechanic is too great to ignore.
Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who
However, keep in mind, if Irish darts can do this, why can't English arrows do the same, then? Uniqueness is acceptable, but giving some faction's thing unique when practically the same thing from other factions should also can do it, is a bit gamey.
I grant you that you have a good point, but hear me out on this. I have a good feeling about this in the long run.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If we are to take Humpfrey Barwicks claim that the English "haue the like estmation of the Long Bow, as the Irish haue of their Darts" The Irish were dedicated to the trade of Javelins. I'll therefor assume the Irish had at least specialized darts for different occasions, just like the Norse on shipboard. "Various kinds of darts should be kept on ships, both heavy javelins and lighter ones. Try to strike your opponent’s shield with a heavy javelin, and if the shield glides aside, attack him with a light javelin" Lighter darts with shorter reload speed, and heavier darts with more kinetic energy, enough to make a shield 'glide aside'. It makes sense.
You might say, then X faction should also have these heavy javelins and slow -ability. True, but the Irish generally didn't use mail which allowed them to throw hard, more on this below, ergo have higher slow%. Let's assume normal javelinmen have Heavy Javelin ammunition with 10% slow, then the Irish have a special Hard Hitting Dart with 30% slow. Here is why.
The other point is that the Irish throwing shoulders had complete free range of motion, due to the ubiquitous lack of mail, which is a restrictive element on movement of the arm. This is due to the fact that most mail doesn't expand and detract the same way fabric does. So when you raise your arm--you're only going to go so far before the mail goes "Nope". Paraphrasing the conclusion from Ian Laspina's test of his late 14th century English harness. "The binding of the mail around the shoulders and the armpits were the most restrictive part of my armour.".
Conclusion. Unarmoured elite javelin unit ---> able to create distance by significantly slowing enemies or even mitigate some charges with it's Hard Hitting Darts. I think it's worth a shot.
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
What did Barwick meant with "shield glide aside? You want javelins for all factions (with special Irish ones of extra effect) to have pilum/plumbata-like effects of entity slowing and shield defense reduction?
Firstly, my intention was: The quote which describe the 'shield glide aside' -effect is simply a description for the kinetic energy of a Heavy Javelin and would impede the enemy in their tracks. The idea is that the heavy Javelin would allow them to slow the target.
Secondly, if you wish to attribute something else to that, like the pilum effect, then it's not what I was aiming for. However, if it makes sense from a game play perspective, then by all means.
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
I'm starting to change my first impression regarding Ireland. It would be a unique faction with unique units. A mix of Galowglasses both greatswordsmen and greataxemen, Gallowglasses archers, swift specialised javelinmen with multiple types of darts and javelins, guerilla fighting with all kinds of troops with precursors and light, few but swift skirmisher cav. Sounds good. Totally different from Scotland with a mix of pikes, longbows and greatswordsman. Traditional clansmen also. But what about Wales? I mean after the Norman invasion with the first son of the King of England becoming Prince of Wales is it necessary to add them too? They could have mercs for both England and France but four factions on a tiny island is a lot, Norwegians can play a role there too and even Denmark could try to claim "Mercia" once more. Scripted campaigns from Scandinavia would do. I mean there are other factions on the general map that would be better than let's say Wales, Navarre and the Cumans who would only have tier 1 troops like the Golden Horde for instance or Croatia and so on. Just because they're from the west shouldn't give them extra points right!? Let's be fair. And unbiased.
Edit: Volga Bulgarians too with only first half of the 13th century tier 1 units and even Chernigov that was replaced by Galicia and Suzdal. A waste of slots. I include Brabant here as well that was insignifiant.
Last edited by Visarion; October 22, 2016 at 05:50 AM.
Ireland research thread
Originally Posted by Finn
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I'm not quite sure how, but it would be another mechanic to allow the Irish to keep distance from their enemies. 
.
