For King and Country!

[General_Curtis_LeMay]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the place that social duty has and or that it should have in the modern world.
It is my oppinion that in this modern world, where people go around shouting "give me freedom" then if they attain the political ends they desire, they squander thier freedom on projects centered on self, and self preservation. For I believe that a society that experiances the blessings of life, liberty, and the pursuite of happiness, should then render service through varius differant forms unto the sorce of thier freedom.
Lets run after a higher understanding here.
-Ben

[Lavastein]

how about some examples as to what you are trying to get at?

[General_Curtis_LeMay]

Ok, well a country that offers freedom weakens itself. it looses the capacity to order its populace and control things. In order for the nation that is the bestower of such rights must recieve new source of strength, that strength being the overflow of patrioitism and taxable wealth that the citizens offer up. However I do beleive it to be the duty of all citizens to become a symbol of the country in which they bear citizenship. Heince it is befitting that they should conduct themselfs in such a manor to glorify king and country.
That is what I am talking about, about men who fear not diying for thier counrty, for those that stick to a job for the sake of their countrymen, for those that refuse to do anything that would lower thier country in the eyes of others, this id the eppitamy of what I am talking about.

[Stalins Ghost]

Blind nationalism is always a bad thing. I would die defending my country, or more specifically my friends, family and the people around against a foe who I had quarrel with, but I would never fight in a war that I see as unjust. Its the reason I decided not to sign up for the forces - because I see the reality of warfare, and the reasons most wars are fought - not in the name of my people, but for the greedy gains of politicians and corporate fat cats.

I believe the true role of a person in society is to work towards a common good. Not for the rather abstract form of "for the country". What is your country? What makes it better than another? What makes its people better? Nothing. Everyone is born equal, and everyone should live equally unless they are given reason to be punished for whatever reason. No-one should suffer as a result of someone else. I'm a horribly misguided idealist in many ways, but I recognise the dream of a common good for all humanity will most likely never happen in my life time, or that of my distant descendants, but humanity as a whole should, in my opinion work progressively towards making all of humanity great.

Concepts of nationhood prevent this. Pride of country stops us embracing the next man or women as kin, but instead seeing them with the eyes of the foreigner, cold, misunderstanding and with antipathy. I abhor the concept that we should feel that our way of things is so wholly superior to so called lesser nations.

So no. I do not believe in the concept of "for king and country". I believe in "for humanity and the common good". In a sense I agree with you then though! You speak of eliminating the idea greed and selfish manipulation of the world around you, which is something you can plainly see I agree with. I just don't believe belief in any one nation is the way to go about it.

My ultimate desire is to see every man, women or child working towards the future of the human race.

Yes. I am an evil Comi-Hippy.

Great Topic by the way!

[PacSubCom]

'The state is the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lies it also; and this lie creeps from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."

But the state lies in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it says it lies; and whatever it has it has stolen.

"On earth there is nothing greater than I: It is I who am the regulating finger of God" - thus roars the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees.

Where the state ceases, there begins humanity.'

Thus spoke the freely translated Nietzsche.

[sephodwyrm]

Where the state ceases, there begins humanity.

Beautiful.
Rep provided.

I am assuming that Ben asserts that the state is the source of freedom, which I have problems with. The source of freedom is a population's will to achieve it, not the state. The state is merely an extension and representation of their power.

[Lavastein]

The source of freedom is a population's will to achieve it, not the state. The state is merely an extension and representation of their power.

agreed. But I believe the state is the symbol of humanity. Our wish to to build something better for ourselves and show the world our glory. I believe in the state and believe it is to be cherished and protected from all enemies.

[General_Curtis_LeMay]

Thousands of years ago, humanity suffered along in a time we refer to as the primitive age. In that age, there were no rights, indeed, we (humanity) we the slaves of the despots that ruled over us with such evil authority. However, as the years progressed, we found new channels of government. And government found new ways of ruling over us. However, in the last 100 years, a collosial upheaval has shaken the very foundations uponwhich all humanity was basied: Democracy.
Oh, what a beautiful and sweet thing it is, that we as humans may partake in that which has been the dream of all free men (meaning mankind), that we could rule ourselfs. We know that a government must be instilled over men, or there will be nothing short of anarchy, and a society in which those that are strong abuse the weak, not protect them. Thus governments were instituted, by the stong to rule over the weak. This system however flawed it may have been, was sufficient to ensure stability and domestic tranquility amoung men.
However, in recent years mankind has become educated, know thier unailienable rights, and heince demanded that they receive these rights. A people should be proud of the fact that they have received this freedom. Thus it is befitting that they should rejoice and have pride in that lofty station that has and is thew source of that freedom. Granted, those who live in the light should apply themselfs to every possible application of a chance to free others. In order to achievce this end, they must feel and bear pride that they, being free are made one through thier freedom. So I say, yes we should have a vision that leads us to being citizens of a free, prosperous world. However we still need time to root out those dissedents that would oppose any such utopia.

But untill then, the free will be best disposed to live and be ardent patriots of the nation upon which they live and enjoy the days of liberty, and to fron the platform of freedon that they live upon, spread through any means that god given liberty unto the stars.
"Vive La Liberty!"

[sephodwyrm]

Our wish to to build something better for ourselves and show the world our glory.

That's merely vanity.
You build something better to better your lives, not to show others that you are inherently better. For example, some people say that we should be more democratic and liberal so that we can get more intimate with western powers. I say that this is a completely erroneous reason why you want to be democratic and liberal, because you don't go democratic as if its a new piece of fashion or french lingerie, you go democratic to better lives.

We know that a government must be instilled over men, or there will be nothing short of anarchy, and a society in which those that are strong abuse the weak, not protect them.

States that advocate and protect the strong to prey on the weak did exist, do exist and will probably exist for a while. It probably will take another millenium for people to realize that this beautiful lie (which I have quoted) is only state propaganda. The government's ultimate check is the people. They are the servants, and the people are the masters, not the other way around.