Nationalism in this Mod

[Lord of The Woodland Realm]

Every now and again I visit this thread and I always see somebody in here complaining about something in the mod not being included from their country. Im not trying to say you shouldn't love your country, but I dont get why people get so angry over these little things. They are small details in a huge mod based around 1212 A.D, so what if your country's troops dont like exactly like you think they should look. It is a mod made by a small team of people who cant flesh out every little detail in each faction.

[Bobi_TWR]

Yes lots of ppl are crying,which to be honest is more funny than annoying ;P

[FuzFuzFuz]

Unfortunately this is an issue faced by almost every historical title/mod. Everybody's faction is better than everyone else's because their ancestors did something amazing hundred of years ago and thus must take precedence. Thankfully this is not the case as the devs of this mod have stated that all factions are of equal priority.

[Ltd.]

Unfortunately this is an issue faced by almost every historical title/mod. Everybody's faction is better than everyone else's because their ancestors did something amazing hundred of years ago and thus must take precedence. Thankfully this is not the case as the devs of this mod have stated that all factions are of equal priority.

That is indeed true. Seeing one particular faction being worked on before some other faction, supposedly more important and more powerful historically, does not mean anything. There is no pattern to this. Initially me and warman started working on the factions according to their position on the map, more or less, he back then preferring to work rather on western factions while I started working on eastern and steppe factions. Now of course with several other team members we just work on factions we find more and accurate information on.

In terms of nationalism: yes, it is understandable that people want to see their ancestors' faction be fleshed out and powerful, or even more powerful than some others, and yes, some factions might end up more powerful than others be it militarily or economically, but weaknesses will be counterbalanced by other strengths, so that each playable factions will be viable for a campaign.

[Lucem Mundum]

I was actually about to start a similar thread lol. Those nationalists are really getting on my nerves, and they are ruining the mod's page with their constant whining.

[Slytacular]

I think a little bit of nationalism is good. It can help inspire the design of the faction to make them seem badass and cool. I just wish there were more people praising other factions besides the ones located in Eastern Europe.

[warman222]

I think Sly sums up my thoughts for the most part. I do find myself getting annoyed at picture spam posts, and Visarion isn't the first member to do that so I'm not just talking about him. Back to the point, if channeled right nationalism can lead to great things. I mean look at the recent Sicily preview. Also the Swiss faction is being worked on by Baron, he's from Switzerland, and the amount of work he's putting in that's not too OP is wonderful. Also people often ask why the Swiss don't have a faction preview thread. Well it's because they are far from done. Baron intends to represent all 12 cantons in the tier 2 and he still needs to do tier 3s. Maybe when he finishes the tier 2 he should do a thread and update it later with tier 3s, we'll see.

[jim501]

I think Sly sums up my thoughts for the most part. I do find myself getting annoyed at picture spam posts, and Visarion isn't the first member to do that so I'm not just talking about him.

Visarion is the only one I have sen doing it so far, didnt encounter others in the recent threads.
Even he however spammed pictures for both the Byzantines and the Wallachians so I am kidna confused as to who exactly he is supproting more

[Teutonic]

I think you guys are being a little harsh, or something's got lost in translation. I think most of it is not nationalism but patriotism and people trying to be helpful, assuming that their nations are more obscure and they offer ideas and other info. There's plenty on England, France, etc. Usually it is so that the faction is more accurately represented, not that is is overpowered.
E.g. I'd like a native mounted archer unit for Bulgaria. Armoured like the infantry and capable at melee. Not really good at anything but not too bad either. I believe this was what the bulk of their cavalry was. They would not OP the faction because they don't offer anything more than what is already in their roster, just better representation. And the Bolyar cav armour to be more mixed like the Serbian Knights'- it's purely visual.

Also, there are better historical records, thus less ambiguity, for the more Western factions, compared to the more Eastern ones. E.g.there's huge amount on the English in France in 15c and what you've got is basically archers and men-at-arms. You've got that already in the mod, plus more. So less need for discussion. Or if you are French there is Napoleon TW and Age of Charlemagne to keep you busy...

I don't argue that the premise of this thread is completely wrong, and the picture spams get grating (however well-intentioned), but compared to other mods here is not that bad.

[Ltd.]

...
E.g. I'd like a native mounted archer unit for Bulgaria. Armoured like the infantry and capable at melee. Not really good at anything but not too bad either. I believe this was what the bulk of their cavalry was. They would not OP the faction because they don't offer anything more than what is already in their roster, just better representation. And the Bolyar cav armour to be more mixed like the Serbian Knights'- it's purely visual.
. ...

Well , as far as I know the second bulgarian Tsardom used predominantly the cumans in terms of mounted archers, as did many other kingdoms, like the romans, the hungarians ( they had their own as well ), serbians etc.
It was the first bulgarian empire that did rely heavily on native mounted archers.

[Linke]

"there are better historical records, thus less ambiguity, for the more Western factions "
is this really true, more academic interest shure but actually more contemporary armour finds, bibles etc?

[Teutonic]

"there are better historical records, thus less ambiguity, for the more Western factions "
is this really true, more academic interest shure but actually more contemporary armour finds, bibles etc?

More of the Middle Ages historic record has been swept away in Eastern Europe than in the West. In all ways- written records, architecture, objects. This is a generalization, of course, and it varies from country to country but is true.
Another issue is the accessibility of the sources.

As for the "mounted archers" thing, I was thinking about the middle period of the mod (14th century) and I don't exactly mean mounted archers. It's more like what the armed retainers of the nobility were like- soldiers who were expected to be able to use a bow and to fight mounted (given the nature of their adversaries), as well as to man a fortress wall. I am trying to think of the best way such troops can be represented in the mod.
Specialist allied/merc mounted archers were used for two big campaigns that are known for sure, but for the countless skirmishing actions, and fighting off surprise incursions local troops had to have been used. Now, there could've been merc or settled Mongols serving the Bolyars. I don't know enough, plus there is the issue with the few sources.

[Heisenburrg]

But I have to say, that the statement "Every faction gets the same amount of attention" is a little bit exaggerated. When I look at the County of Toulouse or Swizerland, which had indeed a lesser political role then lets say the HRE, and it gets more diversity or native units than mighty states like the Ayyubit Sultanate, Poland or even France, then I think its at least a little bit inbalanced.
This is no criticism at all; I know some factions aren´t ready yet, the sources aren´t distributed equally and of course you modders have different interests too. Furthermore I love to see EACH new and superb looking unit, Toulouse for example is again just glorious. I only want to say there are indeed some differences in quality, quantity or attention that goes to the factions. My last word for this theme; Do what you think is right, I´m sure you´ll present us one of the best mods in total war history!

[lion8000]

Actually the First and Second Bulgarian empires relied heavily on heavy shock cavalry, not on mounted archers.

[Heisenburrg]

IMO there´s no need to insult these people. Sure, it gets a bit annoying if somebody keeps spamming the whole forum
with his glorification or demands for his favorite/native faction and sure, everyone should learn to restrain themselves sometimes. I for myself am a Thuringian, who lives in Saxony and I love both of these countries from principle, but I know that they did not have the biggest significance, so they dont need a roster with 30 units... Although I could imagine some addition for the HRE
But really, why don´t you just leave them. If nobody´s hurt by this and the interest for their country is a real value and delight for them, why should somebody try to denounce that by calling them racists or nationalists? Live and let live, even its annoying sometimes; thats the true meaning of being tolerant.

[FuzFuzFuz]

Nobody insulted anybody, nobody said nationalism was a bad thing and definitely nobody called anyone a racist. There is no basis to bring out a "no need to insult him/her" card. This is a discussion, one that has been civil so far - treat it as such, no need to twist it into anything else.

Also, same amount of attention =/= number of different units.

[Heisenburrg]

Ok, you are right, nobody called anyone a racist and nobody technically denounced somebody, I apologize for that.
But I´m not trying to twist anything and there´s no need to get angry or offensive. I read many constructive and neutral posts in this thread. Some guys said, that they get annoyed by this theme, some guys said, they see positive things in that, some guys said they don´t care, what´s all ok. I just said that this thread must not be a thread for guys who only want to release their tension about the "issue" of nationalism and nobody, who has the intent of doing this, needs to feel touched by my statement. Furthermore I said; just let these guys make whats making them happy, if they dont harm someone... Nothing more. I think, that is a neutral position for a neutral discussion. There is no basis to bring out the "twist anything" card.
But I for myself found that sth like "Those nationalists really getting on my nerves" sounds like releasing the tension and as if it were a bad thing. Because of this I wrote my statement.

And thats a tricky argument; What´s the practical result (and so the comprehensible measure) of attention or passion here if not the number of units, detail, grade of research or anything similar? If you follow this thought, true equality of all factions would only been given, if every faction would have access to all unit classes, the same amount of units, with the same grade of detail, strength and research.
AGAIN; this would neither be historical correct, nor needed, practical or at least interesting to play. So the modding team is doing very right in setting priorities! My only concern is, where this priorities are set sometimes; some factions with in fact lesser political significance (so "minor" factions, for example Swiss and Toulouse) will have a significant greater military potence, variability (or uniqueness) than even some of the "biggest fishes" at this time... This would also been unbalanced and historical incorrect.

These are just my thoughts and I don´t want to harm anyone with this. Personally I would suggest to close this thread, it will likely lead to unpleasant scenes. If I should bother anybody through my writing (especially from the modding team, which shall be praised despite my try of constructive criticism), please just ignore it.

[Lucem Mundum]

But I for myself found that sth like "Those nationalists really getting on my nerves" sounds like releasing the tension and as if it were a bad thing. Because of this I wrote my statement.

So I am the bad guy??? Lol jk

Well, the majority of nationalists in this mod page did nothing but argue with one another over who's nation was better, stronger, etc, and I am not linking any such posts to avoid further arguments (if you were here during the earlier days of the mod you probably know which posts I am talking about). Other than that there is a bright side to nationalism as it was demonstrated by Warman, Baron, and to some extent Visarion.

[FuzFuzFuz]

Ok, you are right, nobody called anyone a racist and nobody technically denounced somebody, I apologize for that.
But I´m not trying to twist anything and there´s no need to get angry or offensive. I read many constructive and neutral posts in this thread. Some guys said, that they get annoyed by this theme, some guys said, they see positive things in that, some guys said they don´t care, what´s all ok. I just said that this thread must not be a thread for guys who only want to release their tension about the "issue" of nationalism and nobody, who has the intent of doing this, needs to feel touched by my statement. Furthermore I said; just let these guys make whats making them happy, if they dont harm someone... Nothing more. I think, that is a neutral position for a neutral discussion. There is no basis to bring out the "twist anything" card.
But I for myself found that sth like "Those nationalists really getting on my nerves" sounds like releasing the tension and as if it were a bad thing. Because of this I wrote my statement.

And thats a tricky argument; What´s the practical result (and so the comprehensible measure) of attention or passion here if not the number of units, detail, grade of research or anything similar? If you follow this thought, true equality of all factions would only been given, if every faction would have access to all unit classes, the same amount of units, with the same grade of detail, strength and research.
AGAIN; this would neither be historical correct, nor needed, practical or at least interesting to play. So the modding team is doing very right in setting priorities! My only concern is, where this priorities are set sometimes; some factions with in fact lesser political significance (so "minor" factions, for example Swiss and Toulouse) will have a significant greater military potence, variability (or uniqueness) than even some of the "biggest fishes" at this time... This would also been unbalanced and historical incorrect.

These are just my thoughts and I don´t want to harm anyone with this. Personally I would suggest to close this thread, it will likely lead to unpleasant scenes. If I should bother anybody through my writing (especially from the modding team, which shall be praised despite my try of constructive criticism), please just ignore it.

Where do you see the aggression or the offense in my post? I just gave my thoughts on the matter while being calm as possible and there is definitley nothing offensive in it. Don't make up something that is not there. This is what I meant by twisting. No need to use my words against me. Someone created a thread citing his opinion on the matter, like minded-people responded, no forum rules have been broken thus far and nothing ugly has been said, why exactly should this thread be closed?

Please remember this is a WIP mod, time and again Warman and team has stated that many factions will be revisted in the future; If it is a "big fish" historically the team will make it so by the time campaign comes out, no need to get overly concerned.

[FrozenmenSS]

the biggest win/fail for Nationalism from country A vs Nationalism from country B was a guy from Turkey who said the name of Bulgaria comes from Bulgur (type of meal)