GTCS - Generals' Traits' Common Sense fix (for 0.9.2)

[tmodelsk]

I'm sorry . I've been in 'correcting errors rampage' . I'm software developer - so it's my professional illness.
I've corrected a lot of them, only those in above post are still (don't know what's the cause).
If those Trait Triggers using those ancciliaries crown_hre crown_.... works -> that's possibly not important .

My fixes are here, two files updated. I've have installed both GTCS & PTF, those two are from those mods :
JoC-GTCS-PTF-Fixes-16-11-28.zip

Now I can play tha game

[tmodelsk]

Here is above fies, for GTCS & PTF : a download link to mega.nz : JoC-GTCS-PTF-Fixes-16-11-28.zip

[j.a.luna]

Jurand you also planned change or improve the crowns ancillaries? So for example get the crown of HRE improve much traits...

[Jurand of Cracow]

Jurand you also planned change or improve the crowns ancillaries? So for example get the crown of HRE improve much traits...

I'd indeed want to make having "crown_of_X" improving traits where realistically justified. Until now, it's included in the triggers for FatherLegacy and TourneyKnight. It's also potentially important in education - see here. In the next round I'll update another trait done - Loves_Father. And the next modified trait is going to be NearLoyalty, where crown will play an important role. And then - as modifications of the other traits will be made - it will be used as well.
However, it's also important to make it actually "acquireable" and we'll do it. As I mentioned - I'm thinking about it.

[j.a.luna]

mmm good ideas Jurand! also you would like improve or make news portraits for generals in sship? or do you like the currents and ancients vainilla models?

[Jurand of Cracow]

mmm good ideas Jurand! also you would like improve or make news portraits for generals in sship? or do you like the currents and ancients vainilla models?

No, this is absolutely outside my interests.

[tmodelsk]

Jurand -> my general governing the city already for a few turns & staying all the time in city - unexpectedly got trait :

Faltering Courage "You care more for your personal security than, you ran away from battle ..... " (or similar) , -1 Morale.

Is it ok ?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes, it's intended. In the guide there's information about that risk.
"What makes a general coward is: living in a city (1%), being under siege (20%), getting wounded (1-3%), surviving spying and assassination attempts (20%), leaving a crusade/jihad (full 100%) or just avoiding fights in the target province of such enterprise (50%). If a general gets the first level of Coward, there’s a self-perpetuation for the generals (3%, learning generals are immune)."

I think that as a general stays longer in a city, he forgets about fighting, enjoys life and - as the time passes by - he is more afraid of risking his life in a true fight.

----

As I've described philosophy here:

From the gameplay persepective (forget for a while the „historicity” issue) the bias I was afraid of is that only good traits would appear in the game.

One of the problems is: a player is unlikely to behave in bad way very often. It’s usually just an occassional decision to do a coward thing and a player would ask himself "what is a risk if I do it once or twice". For instance, how many times would the same general withdraw from battle without a fight? The overall outcome would be that the trait occurs very, very rarely. And the higher levels would never appear. I felt compelled to avoid it somehow. The solutions: lowering thresholds and/or making higher probabilities and/or creating addtional situations. It’s why you can observed that there're few conditions for bad traits. It’s exactly intended to make those traits appearing in the game, not being just theoretical (cases of BadTaxman or Coward). Or the possibility of sitting in a town, doing nothing, and getting Coward.

The outcome of the changes should be:
- if the player strives hard he can get plenty good traits, also the highest levels.
- but generals will also acquire bad features of character.

-----

However, I think I need to change the generic description as it happens not only after battles.

Besides, I'm a bit anxious that it happens so often . It's only 1% but it seems you get it quite frequently. Thanks for feedback, we need to pay attention.

[Lifthrasir]

It might be due to the crusade/jihad or assassination factors. The 1st one is part of the game (basically, any settlement can be "crusaded" or "jihaded", even if the one listed as hidden resource have the priority) and the 2nd one might happen quite often (depending on which faction you're playing).

[Jurand of Cracow]

It might be due to the crusade/jihad or assassination factors. The 1st one is part of the game (basically, any settlement can be "crusaded" or "jihaded", even if the one listed as hidden resource have the priority) and the 2nd one might happen quite often (depending on which faction you're playing).

Well, it shouldn't be - why would such a trigger fire?

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Crusades5_Abandoning
 WhenToTest GeneralAbandonCrusade

 Affects CrusaderHistory -3 Chance 100 
 Affects Coward 1 Chance 100

Assassinations - very rare in the north, never seen it 250 turns.

Spying - yes, this may be the reason, but it was not the case in my game.

I have the feeling that sometimes triggers fire out of nothing at the beginning of the games. During testing I had a case when a 53 year-old general got Senile trait. Yes, there's one possiblity of getting it, but that general wouldn't fulfill all the conditions...

[Zooasaurus]

Is this save compatible? and is the version of EOG attached to this thread is the same as in the EOG thread?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Is this save compatible? and is the version of EOG attached to this thread is the same as in the EOG thread?

Save compatible - yes: you can play without crash and the new traits will fire according to the new probabilities.
However: if your character has already acquired a trait with certain characteristics, he will have this characteristics until the trait is upgraded/lost. Assume theoretically that the older version of Basic Education grants 10% tax and the new version grants 5% Tax, 1 Law. When you put the new version of the minimod, the 10% will stay until the character moves to Standard Education, or loses it (eg. for the reason of old age). On that occassion 10% will be removed, and new bonus added.
However, the descriptions will be new from the moment of the swap in the files, so it may be deceptive.

EOG - no, the files in the EOG thread are the old ones (minimal changes: only Section VIII of the EDCT). This version is newer, encompassing changes - as described here.

[shadowtwinz]

Hey Jurand Are you planning to rework traits ?

I ve been scrolling in and found some vanilla unchanged traits or atleast this trait that never popped up in my 100 turn campaign I hope it will help you on further work.
GoodBuilder

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trait GoodBuilder
Characters family
NoGoingBackLevel 2
AntiTraits BadBuilder


Level Active_Builder
Description Active_Builder_desc
EffectsDescription Active_Builder_effects_desc
Threshold 6


Effect Construction 5
Effect Squalor -1


Level Urban_Planner
Description Urban_Planner_desc
EffectsDescription Urban_Planner_effects_desc
Threshold 12


Effect Construction 10
Effect Squalor -2


Level Great_Builder
Description Great_Builder_desc
EffectsDescription Great_Builder_effects_desc
Epithet Great_Builder_epithet_desc
Threshold 18


Effect Construction 15
Effect Squalor -3

Triggers. Only building Walls/Castles does influence noticeable otherwise NOT

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger governor_building
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


; Condition GovernorInResidence


Affects GoodBuilder 1 Chance 25


;------------------------------------------
Trigger governor_building_walls
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= stone_wall


Affects GoodBuilder 4 Chance 100
Affects GoodAdministrator 1 Chance 20


;------------------------------------------
Trigger governor_building_castle_builder
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= castle


Affects GoodBuilder 4 Chance 100

;------------------------------------------
Trigger governor_building_castle_defenses
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= c_ballista_towers


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75
Affects GoodAdministrator 1 Chance 5

;------------------------------------------
Trigger governor_building_defenses
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= ballista_towers


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75
Affects GoodAdministrator 1 Chance 5


;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_water_supply
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= well


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75


;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_farms
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms+1


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75


;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_schools
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= school


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75

;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_roads
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= paved_roads


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75


;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_castleroads
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= c_paved_roads


Affects GoodBuilder 2 Chance 75

;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_cathedral
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= cathedral


Affects GoodBuilder 3 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_cathedral_o
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= cathedral_o


Affects GoodBuilder 3 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger building_jama
WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted


Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= jama


Affects GoodBuilder 3 Chance 100

Same goes with GoodAdministrator trait

EDIT: Senile trait makes older people bad at anything it feels like you need to suicide him. I think Authority and law shouldn't or minimal be affected by it. If not mistaken later when baby is born and fathers authority is below 3-5 then he gets bad traits cause of fathers authority. One more thing Senile trait progresses very quickly and at 60years he will have 3rd level senile trait.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Shadowtwinz,
I've lost my inspiration for a moment for modding (I'm preoccupied with RL and with Civ-IV Realism Invictus ;-), but I'll regain it at some point, and yes - I'm going to modify GoodBuilder / GoodAdministrator. Actually, I've already have space for them in this thread ;-) I'm hesitating in what sense GoodAdministrator should be different from the other GoodX traits. I think I'll strip GoodBuilder from Squalor bonus (well, I don't see direct relation between being good at builing and being good at managing large groups of city dwellers), but I'll assign it to GoodAdministration. But I need to think it over.
Senile - thanks for the observation, I've got the same. I'll relaxe the triggers in such way that Senile appears later. On the other hand, during their lives the generals will get many good traits which will not be offset by Senile and they'll still be useful even with full Totally Senile and Beyond Battle, so no need to kill them.
JoC

[shadowtwinz]

Found bug. King somehow gets more than one widetraits those should be limited to 1 per character but my character got 3 of them and they are: Kind ruler, Passive ruler, Fair ruler.

Goodbuilder if possible make it to reduce building time up to 40%

p.s sship modified alot of traits but some of them are now unavailable like LogisticalSkill. On SS6.4 you could learn it but right now there are triggers for Cumans or pagans only, no catholics.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Found bug. King somehow gets more than one widetraits those should be limited to 1 per character but my character got 3 of them and they are: Kind ruler, Passive ruler, Fair ruler.

These are levels of three different traits, so a character can be a kind, fair and passive ruler.

Goodbuilder if possible make it to reduce building time up to 40%

I don't think it's possible to reduces building time, you can modify only costs.

p.s sship modified alot of traits but some of them are now unavailable like LogisticalSkill. On SS6.4 you could learn it but right now there are triggers for Cumans or pagans only, no catholics.

I doubt the SSHIP has modified LogisticalSkill, it was done rather earlier, but it definitely needs revamping. I hope to get onto it at some point.

[Used2BRoz]

Awesome work on the traits and triggers.
I've started looking at them for my M2TW mod - I'm using vanilla plus BBB v4.00 (Dearmad and Pnutmaster)
From memory SS used a version of BBB that has been hacked around several times (I think I may have had a go once) and I expect SSHIP has added to it.
It's a great piece of work and framework for all manner of roleplaying etc but it can so easily go wrong. (BBB v4.00 has serious issues with loyalty for example.)
I Have read the thread on the bugs / non-working features of traits and triggers in mod workshop - and discovered the anti-trait things and NoGoinBack are bugged and wondering how best to sort everything out.
I'm suspecting that joint effort to produce a cleaned version of the vanilla traits and triggers might be worthwhile.
Anyway hope you can return to this project - your methodical and clearly documented approach is much appreciated.

[Jurand of Cracow]

it can so easily go wrong. (BBB v4.00 has serious issues with loyalty for example.)
I Have read the thread on the bugs / non-working features of traits and triggers in mod workshop - and discovered the anti-trait things and NoGoinBack are bugged and wondering how best to sort everything out.
I'm suspecting that joint effort to produce a cleaned version of the vanilla traits and triggers might be worthwhile.
Anyway hope you can return to this project - your methodical and clearly documented approach is much appreciated.

Thanks for the kind words, it's nice to hear appreciation from somebody who knows how complicated it is and how much effort you have to make transparent and well-argumented changes.
In general, I'm surprised how much of vanilla traits' features have been upheld in SS and later modifications (BftB, HURB, SSHIP). Yes, it's why most of the things may be compatible with your modding.
Loyalty - I think it works slightly different in SSHIP for the issues related to usurper etc. I've already made changes to the Far/Near Loyalty but they won't be compatible with vanilla as I want to make use of the "Crowns" from SS (basically, if you get the crown, your generals will lose less loyalty due to being far away from the capital. It will work only for the player, of course) and of other traits (like Coward, Xenophile, Married). So Loyalty modding wouldn't be compatible.
For the moment, I play Attila to be able to compare the games and the mods (well, actually ATW sucks on most of the features, and on traits the most, but I'm enjoing fighting off barbarians as Western Empire ;-).
But at some point I'll be back.
Give us know if you make changes to vanilla traits.

[marcp]

Hello all, mucho appreciation for all the effort put into making the best possible mod for SS etc. Even though it may not be too relevant I thought I would add some info to the earlier discussed usage of alcohol by Muslim.

I have read a recent (Feb 17) edition of National Geographic that explores the issue of the length of time and how much of an influence alcohol has made in society. Some form of rice wine is traced back to 9000 B.C. China (chem analysis from clay containers)and pretty much thought to precede this quit well. The Persians knew their beers very well and there is written evidence that they brewed light,gold and dark ales...up to 12 varieties the Egyptians entombed their Pharaohs with mini breweries to slake their thirst in the after life (I find that too awesome Early societies found ways to ferment quite exotic wheat/grains and fruits dependent on areas explored..."they took their brewing knowledge with them as they migrated. So it is at least for certain that Persian/Babylonian societies imbibed and this was common,if only for religious or other significant social occasions. The Romans were responsible too a large extent for the spread of wine though the whole anatolian region had been fermenting with grapes from times predating any roman expansion, or Alexander for that matter.

It is very much accepted that drinking was disavowed by the Prophet's teachings but the Muslim populations in Al-andalus were comfortable with drink and was fairly widely permitted as their form of piety was a bit lax compared to the fierce strictness of those Muslims to the south, the African Continent...in the time of El Cid at least. Al-andalus was an acceptation to be sure though as only maybe Jerusalem at the time had as much tolerance for various religious/cultural expression in medieval era. I am not an authority but my education is not too far off base on the subject, I believe.

To sum up, As there is "nothing new under the sun" I would think it very much historical to have bad traits come along with a alcohol imbibing Muslim general, affecting obviously piety/zealousness and perhaps authority,law, unrest or perhaps the opposite could be true where the population less fears being governed or lead by a man with his own faults in the eye's of Alla. As is the case today I know Muslim's who drink regularly and those who, at least publicly disavow drink and there doesn't seem to be many reasons why it wouldn't have been similar in an earlier time.

At any rate thanks all the hard work and interesting conversations

Mark.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks for your info! It's right what I think. I think for the health reasons (antiseptics) people were always drinking alcoholic beverages. It simply was always around.

The problem for presentism (thinking about the past in the terms of the present, or extrapolating our values hundreds years back, or just not understanding the circumstances existing then) is actually not so easy to deal with in the historical mods. On the one hand the players want to understand the environment and to get the feel for the game (so we do want to think in the terms of the present), on the other hand the goal is to have much of historicity of the mod (which make the world alien to us).
In my mod the most glaring example is education - the university system existed only in the catholic Europe, and only from certain point in time (different in different parts of Europe, sometimes surprising - Heidelberg set up its university later than Cracow). But still, it's a nice feature, and I make it available also for the other cultures/religions/factions.