GTCS - Generals' Traits' Common Sense fix (for 0.9.2)

**Jurand of Cracow** · January 11, 2017, 12:11 PM

Hi Shadowtwinz,
I've lost my inspiration for a moment for modding (I'm preoccupied with RL and with Civ-IV Realism Invictus ;-), but I'll regain it at some point, and yes - I'm going to modify GoodBuilder / GoodAdministrator. Actually, I've already have space for them in this thread ;-) I'm hesitating in what sense GoodAdministrator should be different from the other GoodX traits. I think I'll strip GoodBuilder from Squalor bonus (well, I don't see direct relation between being good at builing and being good at managing large groups of city dwellers), but I'll assign it to GoodAdministration. But I need to think it over.
Senile - thanks for the observation, I've got the same. I'll relaxe the triggers in such way that Senile appears later. On the other hand, during their lives the generals will get many good traits which will not be offset by Senile and they'll still be useful even with full Totally Senile and Beyond Battle, so no need to kill them.
JoC

**shadowtwinz** · January 13, 2017, 04:54 AM

Found bug. King somehow gets more than one widetraits those should be limited to 1 per character but my character got 3 of them and they are: Kind ruler, Passive ruler, Fair ruler.

Goodbuilder if possible make it to reduce building time up to 40%

p.s sship modified alot of traits but some of them are now unavailable like LogisticalSkill. On SS6.4 you could learn it but right now there are triggers for Cumans or pagans only, no catholics.

**Jurand of Cracow** · January 14, 2017, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by shadowtwinz

Found bug. King somehow gets more than one widetraits those should be limited to 1 per character but my character got 3 of them and they are: Kind ruler, Passive ruler, Fair ruler.

These are levels of three different traits, so a character can be a kind, fair and passive ruler.

Originally Posted by shadowtwinz

Goodbuilder if possible make it to reduce building time up to 40%

I don't think it's possible to reduces building time, you can modify only costs.

Originally Posted by shadowtwinz

p.s sship modified alot of traits but some of them are now unavailable like LogisticalSkill. On SS6.4 you could learn it but right now there are triggers for Cumans or pagans only, no catholics.

I doubt the SSHIP has modified LogisticalSkill, it was done rather earlier, but it definitely needs revamping. I hope to get onto it at some point.

**Used2BRoz** · February 02, 2017, 08:05 AM

Awesome work on the traits and triggers.
I've started looking at them for my M2TW mod - I'm using vanilla plus BBB v4.00 (Dearmad and Pnutmaster)
From memory SS used a version of BBB that has been hacked around several times (I think I may have had a go once) and I expect SSHIP has added to it.
It's a great piece of work and framework for all manner of roleplaying etc but it can so easily go wrong. (BBB v4.00 has serious issues with loyalty for example.)
I Have read the thread on the bugs / non-working features of traits and triggers in mod workshop - and discovered the anti-trait things and NoGoinBack are bugged and wondering how best to sort everything out.
I'm suspecting that joint effort to produce a cleaned version of the vanilla traits and triggers might be worthwhile.
Anyway hope you can return to this project - your methodical and clearly documented approach is much appreciated.

**Jurand of Cracow** · February 02, 2017, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Used2BRoz

it can so easily go wrong. (BBB v4.00 has serious issues with loyalty for example.)
I Have read the thread on the bugs / non-working features of traits and triggers in mod workshop - and discovered the anti-trait things and NoGoinBack are bugged and wondering how best to sort everything out.
I'm suspecting that joint effort to produce a cleaned version of the vanilla traits and triggers might be worthwhile.
Anyway hope you can return to this project - your methodical and clearly documented approach is much appreciated.

Thanks for the kind words, it's nice to hear appreciation from somebody who knows how complicated it is and how much effort you have to make transparent and well-argumented changes.
In general, I'm surprised how much of vanilla traits' features have been upheld in SS and later modifications (BftB, HURB, SSHIP). Yes, it's why most of the things may be compatible with your modding.
Loyalty - I think it works slightly different in SSHIP for the issues related to usurper etc. I've already made changes to the Far/Near Loyalty but they won't be compatible with vanilla as I want to make use of the "Crowns" from SS (basically, if you get the crown, your generals will lose less loyalty due to being far away from the capital. It will work only for the player, of course) and of other traits (like Coward, Xenophile, Married). So Loyalty modding wouldn't be compatible.
For the moment, I play Attila to be able to compare the games and the mods (well, actually ATW sucks on most of the features, and on traits the most, but I'm enjoing fighting off barbarians as Western Empire ;-).
But at some point I'll be back.
Give us know if you make changes to vanilla traits.

**marcp** · February 18, 2017, 01:10 PM

Hello all, mucho appreciation for all the effort put into making the best possible mod for SS etc. Even though it may not be too relevant I thought I would add some info to the earlier discussed usage of alcohol by Muslim.

I have read a recent (Feb 17) edition of National Geographic that explores the issue of the length of time and how much of an influence alcohol has made in society. Some form of rice wine is traced back to 9000 B.C. China (chem analysis from clay containers)and pretty much thought to precede this quit well. The Persians knew their beers very well and there is written evidence that they brewed light,gold and dark ales...up to 12 varieties the Egyptians entombed their Pharaohs with mini breweries to slake their thirst in the after life (I find that too awesome

Early societies found ways to ferment quite exotic wheat/grains and fruits dependent on areas explored..."they took their brewing knowledge with them as they migrated. So it is at least for certain that Persian/Babylonian societies imbibed and this was common,if only for religious or other significant social occasions. The Romans were responsible too a large extent for the spread of wine though the whole anatolian region had been fermenting with grapes from times predating any roman expansion, or Alexander for that matter.

It is very much accepted that drinking was disavowed by the Prophet's teachings but the Muslim populations in Al-andalus were comfortable with drink and was fairly widely permitted as their form of piety was a bit lax compared to the fierce strictness of those Muslims to the south, the African Continent...in the time of El Cid at least. Al-andalus was an acceptation to be sure though as only maybe Jerusalem at the time had as much tolerance for various religious/cultural expression in medieval era. I am not an authority but my education is not too far off base on the subject, I believe.

To sum up, As there is "nothing new under the sun" I would think it very much historical to have bad traits come along with a alcohol imbibing Muslim general, affecting obviously piety/zealousness and perhaps authority,law, unrest or perhaps the opposite could be true where the population less fears being governed or lead by a man with his own faults in the eye's of Alla. As is the case today I know Muslim's who drink regularly and those who, at least publicly disavow drink and there doesn't seem to be many reasons why it wouldn't have been similar in an earlier time.

At any rate thanks all the hard work and interesting conversations

Mark.

**Jurand of Cracow** · February 19, 2017, 02:23 AM

Thanks for your info! It's right what I think. I think for the health reasons (antiseptics) people were always drinking alcoholic beverages. It simply was always around.

The problem for presentism (thinking about the past in the terms of the present, or extrapolating our values hundreds years back, or just not understanding the circumstances existing then) is actually not so easy to deal with in the historical mods. On the one hand the players want to understand the environment and to get the feel for the game (so we do want to think in the terms of the present), on the other hand the goal is to have much of historicity of the mod (which make the world alien to us).
In my mod the most glaring example is education - the university system existed only in the catholic Europe, and only from certain point in time (different in different parts of Europe, sometimes surprising - Heidelberg set up its university later than Cracow). But still, it's a nice feature, and I make it available also for the other cultures/religions/factions.

**Lifthrasir** · February 20, 2017, 03:44 AM

About alcohol in Europe, I've read recently that it was considered as food somehow, briging the necessary missing vitamines and nutriments during Winter time. However, it has to be confirmed.

Alcohol could be used as medicine by Muslims. There are several records of that fact.

The university system existed also in the Muslim countries as well.

**Jurand of Cracow** · February 27, 2017, 08:46 AM

One observation on the GTCS traits, from a recent experience: it is very easy for a general to became coward. It's described in the guide:

"If he withdraws pre-battle, especially when the odds were even, or loses battle without a serious fight, or is routed, or doesn’t engage personally in fighting during even a won battle, he is very likely to get cowardly (50% in each situation). He may also get this trait if he fights weaker forces (50% if odds are more than 2-1)."

I think it's a right approach: in the middle ages the generals were required to personally fight the battle, so you cannot keep him safe, you've got to risk. Also constantly fighting weaker forces is dangerous from this perspective - it serves to the purpose Byg had trait "Over Confidence" in his BGR IVE.
And keep in mind that: "If a general gets the first level of Coward, there’s a self-perpetuation of this trait (3%, learning generals are immune)." It's actually quite powerful given the low thresholds (1,2,3)

**XXZit** · March 11, 2017, 03:44 PM

Hello there. Thank you for the well thought out, immersive and realistic changes. I agree with most of them. However, I've found a few syntax bugs; most are easily fixable by adding the missing "Trait" keyword.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I wasn't able to solve the ancillary errors though. I checked the ancillaries file and those crown ancillaries are defined and seem to be correct. I don't know why the game can't parse these lines.
Perhaps it will be more apparent to you, I barely know anything about modding the game.

If you do find how to fix them, a post with the solution would be very greatly appreciated. I quite like those triggers and it's a shame they're not working right now.

Thanks.

**XXZit** · March 11, 2017, 03:46 PM

There are a couple of typos as well. Sorry, I don't know how to edit my post.

**Jurand of Cracow** · March 12, 2017, 12:44 AM

Hi XXZit, actually tmodelsk found solution to most of them and I've introduced it into my files. I'll try to post it next week or something.
In any case, these glitches don't break the game (no CTDs, afaik), and they marginally impact on the work of the traits.
(you cannot edit your posts untill you reach 25 entries)

**XXZit** · March 12, 2017, 07:17 AM

Well, that is good to know

If he couldn't solve the ancillaries problem, I found a workaround. I noticed all of the triggers do the same thing, affect FatherLegacy for one point with a 100 percent chance; that is if the father of the new general has a crown, be it Polish, English, Dane, etc.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

So Instead of checking each crown, I made a hidden trait called CrownedRuler which is updated when a crowned faction leader becomes a father. A trigger checks for this trait when the faction leader's children come of age, if the leader has it, then the children get 1 point of FathersLegacy. This way we make sure that the king has has had a crown for long enough to ensure his children will grow up under its influence. Instead of getting the crown one turn and the next his child comes of age.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Here's the export_character_traits file with all the fixes:

**Jurand of Cracow** · October 07, 2017, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

One observation on the GTCS traits, from a recent experience: it is very easy for a general to became coward. It's described in the guide:

"If he withdraws pre-battle, especially when the odds were even, or loses battle without a serious fight, or is routed, or doesn’t engage personally in fighting during even a won battle, he is very likely to get cowardly (50% in each situation). He may also get this trait if he fights weaker forces (50% if odds are more than 2-1)."

I think it's a right approach: in the middle ages the generals were required to personally fight the battle, so you cannot keep him safe, you've got to risk. Also constantly fighting weaker forces is dangerous from this perspective - it serves to the purpose Byg had trait "Over Confidence" in his BGR IVE.
And keep in mind that: "If a general gets the first level of Coward, there’s a self-perpetuation of this trait (3%, learning generals are immune)." It's actually quite powerful given the low thresholds (1,2,3)

I think here is the answer to the question why Coward is so easy to get in my submod. It's not intended, I'll fix it somehow in the next release.

Code:

;-------- Coward from Battles -------------;------------------------------------------
Trigger BattleCoward1_No_Killed_Enemies
 WhenToTest PostBattle
 
 Condition IsGeneral
       and BattleOdds <= 5
       and GeneralFoughtInCombat
       and GeneralNumKillsInBattle < 2
 
 Affects Coward 1 Chance 50

**marcp** · December 08, 2017, 05:16 PM

Thanks for pointing this out JOC. I cannot quite recall but the two battles I noticed cowards trait coming from were ones where the general lost half his company in a close victory...I was all set to have the youngster gain 1 exp. point and just maybe a decent trait.

I know for a fact that one Governor was given this trait whilst never having fought in a battle...and as you point out her the trait did perpetuate...though at some point I was able to reverse it by 1 after a battle won. I like your redone trait system but as I mentioned in general thread, for this trait to appear in back to back turns to several of my nobles was frustrating. I find SSHIP to be quite the challenge, especially in the first, critical 5-10 turns or years. I felt this to be more of an engine obstacle and therefore it took away from my enjoyment and investent in the campaign.

I will try to stay abreast of any updates and advice.

Thanks Mark,.

**Jurand of Cracow** · December 14, 2017, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn

GeneralNumKillsInBattle: Works, but it only counts the number of kills the general himself gains, not how many kills his BG unit gains. For this reason, make sure to keep the #s used in this condition low, since even getting a few kills per battle can be difficult. There's no way to tell how many kills he's actually gotten, since the post-battle screen will only state the amount of kills/captures his BG unit gained. A big letdown as a condition IMO, since it should be tracking his BG unit kills, not how many he has personally made(no way for the player to determine that during a battle or post-battle)

For me pro-memoria: this condition may be used in a positive way: if a general really kills by himself (and not his BG) a number of the enemies (say 5), then it should get easier some traits like Scars or Brave (or SeverlyWounded for that mattter).

**Menqel** · February 04, 2018, 07:33 AM

hey Jurand! I came back to SSHIP and I want to play with your submods! I think you should edit your first post with the tmodelsk fixes!
Thank you for your work <3

**Jurand of Cracow** · February 05, 2018, 01:51 AM

You're probably right, but I think it wouldn't change anything - I haven't seen any negative impact of the errors.
However, I should fix the problem of GeneralNumKillsInBattle as it gives the Coward trait. You'd better to fix it yourself if you play it.
I you have any comments after playing - please post it here.

**Menqel** · February 07, 2018, 02:05 PM

Can you describe more the "GeneralNumKillsInbBattle" Fix? What I need to do?

For now, I think your fixes are ok! I just started to play in a different way, for example now I have a dedicated "education" city, without market and other corruption buildings

**Jurand of Cracow** · February 07, 2018, 03:37 PM

In the export_desc_character_traits.txt replace:

Code:

;-------- Coward from Battles -------------;------------------------------------------
Trigger BattleCoward1_No_Killed_Enemies
 WhenToTest PostBattle
 
 Condition IsGeneral
       and BattleOdds <= 5
       and GeneralFoughtInCombat
       and GeneralNumKillsInBattle < 2
 
 Affects Coward 1 Chance 50

with

Code:

;-------- Coward from Battles -------------;------------------------------------------
Trigger BattleCoward1_No_Killed_Enemies
 WhenToTest PostBattle
 
 Condition IsGeneral
       and BattleOdds <= 5
       and GeneralFoughtInCombat
       and GeneralNumKillsInBattle < 2
 
 Affects Coward 1 Chance 1

(the difference is just 50 to 1)

It's save-compatible so you can use it in your current game.

Thread: GTCS - Generals' Traits' Common Sense fix (for 0.9.2)

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