Basileia Rhomaion Tier 1 Naval Units

[You_Guess_Who]

SHIPS


Dromonarion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Chelandion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Catapult Chelandion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Siphon Chelandion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pamphilos

For Admirals Only. Carries 3 Archer Xylokastra, so as a melee unit, it can do missile attack as well

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

​


Extra Bank of Oars for Chelandion

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

UNITS


Prosalentai Seamen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Catapult Crew

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gasmouloi Assault & Crossbow Marines

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Tzakones Archer & Guard Marines

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ADMIRAL GUARDS

Fleet Droungarios Guard

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pelekyphoroi Guard Marines

Can only be used by the Emperor if the player decided to use the Emperor as Admiral. Early on, this unit started as 2-handed axemen as they are Varangoi as marines. However, I thought 2-handed axes would be unwieldy in tight confines of a ship on a boarding attack, so I decided to change it to 1-handed axe + shield combination, as it seems more practical for very close range-melee.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I decided to work on Early Byzantine Navy, because vanilla ship models from Attila can still be used for them. Other navies would need new ship models to work on (except you can tell me which navies were completely using longships or dromon type-ships entirely on a time period of this mod)

I want to hear your suggestions about these units, what could be made better, critiques, anything.

[The_Culverin]

I'm speechless. Awesome work, man!

[Pinarius]

Great work!

This is pretty much unfinished, still WIP. I decided to work on Early Byzantine Navy, because vanilla ship models from Attila can still be used for them. Other navies would need new ship models to work on (except you can tell me which navies were completely using longships or dromon type-ships entirely on a time period of this mod)

I want to hear your suggestions about these units, what could be made better, critiques, anything.

The simple Dromonarion-type should be used by all factions around the Mediterranean sea.

[warman222]

Looks really good so far man!

Great work!


The simple Dromonarion-type should be used by all factions around the Mediterranean sea.

Can you elaborate? Given how I'm still working on Sicily and worked on Aragon in the past maybe we could get their naval rosters started too if there's enough to work with.

[Pinarius]

Can you elaborate? Given how I'm still working on Sicily and worked on Aragon in the past maybe we could get their naval rosters started too if there's enough to work with.

I think the material presented in the thread Medieval Warships Research is enough to assume that this ship type can be used by any Mediterranean faction. The Tarida, a Catalan galley, looked a bit different, but we can modify the already existing Dromonarion, and it would be a good match.
http://www.burgenkunde.de/museum/eng...hrerschiff.htm

Here an example for Sicilly:

[Filips Augustus]

Great work man they're excellent !

[paulyo122]

Amazing stuff.
Im sure you will do this and change up the ships more. But I would like to see if possible that the Chelandion could have two rows of oars and and lateen sails.
Maybe for the Tzakones mix in some spangenhelm.

[You_Guess_Who]

~snip~

Done. Extra oars bank added, Tzakones got some more variety(add padded armor and some more helmets into the mix)

Sails...that'll need to wait.

[paulyo122]

Oh wow very nice changes.

It may be the angle of how it was screen shot but eventually i assume the Dromon will be slightly larger than the Chelandion if you can change ship sizes. From what i read is that it was atleast 8 meters longer than the Chelandion (basis on how much to enlarge it). I also found some other interesting info that the Dromon had an elevated forecastle that could house one or more Greek fire (i think it was physically implemented inside the ship under the forecastle, not like the Chelandion version) as well as being used as a fighting platform. Also on the biggest of Dromons there were wooden castles on either side between the masts, used by archers (Guess that would be hard to implement but the AE mod added small arrow towers instead, just a thought) for an elevated platform advantage. There was no rams, which i can see is not here. But i think what it does have (which is in the picture) is called an above water spur/bow spur that is used to break enemy oars. These were used until the 12th century which is right about when the mods start. So it be awesome to see that type of Dromon in the game. Also since theres not much on warships for that time and especially for the Byzantines so why not? Especially since (Campaign speaking) we get the funds to build such a ship.
If i find anything else i will let you know.

Edit* The Dromon also had two rows of oars. But one set of oars was below the deck while the other was above so that the rowers could fight with the marines. Assuming this is possible to mod if not the general two sets of oars below the deck should be fine.
Edit2* Just saw the screenshot for the Pamphilos and guess you done the mini castles
Edit3* Regarding seamen/marines some may of had an image of St Nicholas as an icon or talisman. Also amulets and pendants that had images of military saints as well as crosses. Maybe add some patterns to the seamen's clothing as well as some more detail to the belts such as pouches. Since the seamen have a secondary weapon sheathed maybe have some of them duel wield. If i was a seamen in battle i would surely want to use anything i could for an advantage over my enemy with such little armour

[You_Guess_Who]

Oh wow very nice changes.

It may be the angle of how it was screen shot but eventually i assume the Dromon will be slightly larger than the Chelandion if you can change ship sizes. From what i read is that it was atleast 8 meters longer than the Chelandion (basis on how much to enlarge it). I also found some other interesting info that the Dromon had an elevated forecastle that could house one or more Greek fire (i think it was physically implemented inside the ship under the forecastle, not like the Chelandion version) as well as being used as a fighting platform. Also on the biggest of Dromons there were wooden castles on either side between the masts, used by archers (Guess that would be hard to implement but the AE mod added small arrow towers instead, just a thought) for an elevated platform advantage. There was no rams, which i can see is not here. But i think what it does have (which is in the picture) is called an above water spur/bow spur that is used to break enemy oars. These were used until the 12th century which is right about when the mods start. So it be awesome to see that type of Dromon in the game. Also since theres not much on warships for that time and especially for the Byzantines so why not? Especially since (Campaign speaking) we get the funds to build such a ship.
If i find anything else i will let you know.

Edit* The Dromon also had two rows of oars. But one set of oars was below the deck while the other was above so that the rowers could fight with the marines. Assuming this is possible to mod if not the general two sets of oars below the deck should be fine.
Edit2* Just saw the screenshot for the Pamphilos and guess you done the mini castles
Edit3* Regarding seamen/marines some may of had an image of St Nicholas as an icon or talisman. Also amulets and pendants that had images of military saints as well as crosses. Maybe add some patterns to the seamen's clothing as well as some more detail to the belts such as pouches. Since the seamen have a secondary weapon sheathed maybe have some of them duel wield. If i was a seamen in battle i would surely want to use anything i could for an advantage over my enemy with such little armour

1. I get what you're saying: You want full-size Dromons, not the smaller Dromonarion version. Low in the water instead of tall like Chelandions. Yes, sooner or later we'll need to get this kind of ship model (because they'll be used for Western Latin early-era Heavy Ships as well). But that would be later, because my priority for now is going to use what Attila ship assets I can use right now.

About the wooden castles, the xylokastra of Dromons are squat, low, but long rectangular elevated platform. That'll need custom model, so that'll need to wait as well. The tower in the Chelandion right now are vanilla models, square towers put amidships instead at port and starboard each.

2. Crosses, belts, accessories, lemme see what doesn't clip too much with the model.

[FrozenmenSS]

The problem with the 2 Ships per Unit in rome 2 was that the second ship's soldiers when disenbark to the shore those guys are stuck and its hard to kill them due to Bug/Rome 2.Was this fixed in Attila by CA?

[AnthoniusII]

When you say "early era" what time frame do you mean?

[Slytacular]

@Anthonius, our mod has been around this long and you haven't even played it yet? How mean.

[warman222]

Early era for us is 1200s. Just for simplicity sake, I know when you place that century by the entire middle ages that term isn't correct but for our time frame it's the earliest hence the label.

[AnthoniusII]

Early era for us is 1200s. Just for simplicity sake, I know when you place that century by the entire middle ages that term isn't correct but for our time frame it's the earliest hence the label.

Then my friend Dromonarion must get out.
Chelandion was a bigger Dromon but there was NO fire Chelandion.
I sugest you read the latest book of mr D'Ammato about this subject [Raffaele D'Amato and Peter Dennis for "Byzantine Naval Forces 1261-1461: The Roman Empire's last marines"].
You will find it very usefull.

[You_Guess_Who]

Then my friend Dromonarion must get out.
Chelandion was a bigger Dromon but there was NO fire Chelandion.
I sugest you read the latest book of mr D'Ammato about this subject [Raffaele D'Amato and Peter Dennis for "Byzantine Naval Forces 1261-1461: The Roman Empire's last marines"].
You will find it very usefull.

1. What did you mean by this? Do you imply that Dromonarion were out-of-date, and need to be replaced by Italian-style Galea called Katergon from the get go? or the Byzantine remnants not operating light ships at all?

If former, I plan the Dromon>Katergon transition at Tier 1 to Tier 2 unit upgrade. The other Mediterranean factions would be the same, for Italians to upgrade their galleys from the old one-man-one-bench rowing system at Tier 1 into Alla Sensile + apostis model at Tier 2. I cannot start the game with Alla Sensile galleys, because it was only introduced by the Genoese in the 1280-90s. That's closer to Tier 2, which is the 1300s.

2. By No Siphon Chelandion, do you mean there shouldn't be Greek Fire Siphon in the first place because its not used anymore after the fall of Constantinople to the Latins; or Siphons were never mounted on Chelandions, and should be carried by Dromonarions instead?

3. The Osprey book? haven't read it, but I've read D'Amato's paper about Prosalentai, Gasmouloi and Tzakones about it:
http://www.academia.edu/12021318/Gaz..._and_equipment
Well, the Tzakones' crescent and star aren't in yet, and addition of kettle+mail hauberk into the variant mix are planned for T2 Gasmouloi.

[zsimmortal]

Wow, this looks great. Should probably include Genoan/Venetian ships too, if only as factional mercs.

[You_Guess_Who]

Amazing stuff.
Im sure you will do this and change up the ships more. But I would like to see if possible that the Chelandion could have two rows of oars and and lateen sails.
Maybe for the Tzakones mix in some spangenhelm.

Can do. I'm able to add additional oars myself, but lateen sails would need warman's help (and it'll open the Ayyubid Navy as well)

The problem with the 2 Ships per Unit in rome 2 was that the second ship's soldiers when disenbark to the shore those guys are stuck and its hard to kill them due to Bug/Rome 2.Was this fixed in Attila by CA?

In later Attila patches, when a ship take more than a determined time to discharge all of its seamen, then the seamen will automatically teleport to the beach. This means is added to prevent the aforementioned stuck seamen.
Also in Attila, empty ships automatically leave the battle, so emptied ships won't fill the beaches, preventing more ships to empty their seamen.

2 ship units need more space to land, so fleets may need to take turns landing if the beachline is short. The 2 ships can land one-by-one on different place by 2 separate orders. However, the player must make sure that they should not issue any order to the landed seamen when the other ship of the unit hasn't landed yet.

Still need more observation, especially how the AI handles it.

When you say "early era" what time frame do you mean?

1200s, in this mod. Admittedly, the Prosalentai + Gasmouloi + Tzakones Navy was formed on the reign of Michael VIII Palaiologos, decades after the mod's starting date. However, there is just no information about the Byzantine remnant states navies between the Fall of Constantinople during the 4th Crusade (where the Navy was left to rot) and the retaking of Constantinople from the Latins.

Also, may I ask if Droungarios is the correct rank for command of 20-30 ship fleet?

Wow, this looks great. Should probably include Genoan/Venetian ships too, if only as factional mercs.

I'm waiting for the Italian land roster to be finished first.

[zsimmortal]

I'm waiting for the Italian land roster to be finished first.

Perfect!

[gary]

very very nice