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Thread: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

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    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Click baity title I know, but I'm surprised we haven't has a thread on this already considering how serious things seem to be getting!

    Basically India is threatening to pursue Pakistan based Kashmiri militants across the the border into Pakistan and have shelled militant positions in Pakistan. At the same time there is a massive resurgence in protests and discontent in Kasmir against Indian occupation, which Pakistan has been manipulating and encouraging for it's own ends.

    Things seem to be going from bad to worse as there have been a series of lethal attacks against Indian security forces. The successful attacks (high army deaths for comparably low militant casualties) will no doubt encourage further attacks and protests, which in turn will (and has) prompt/prompted a swift backlash from the Indian military.

    Rhetoric on both sides is highly charged and I can't see either side backing down any time soon. There have been serious rumors/threats circulating that India will redirect rivers flowing from Kashmir into Pakistan in retaliation for Pakistan's alleged complicity in the attacks. This would be devastating to Pakistan's economy as the rivers flow through some of it's most populous and agriculturally crucial regions, with some experts believing that Pakistan would use it's air-force to destroy any Indian efforts at damming or diverting the rivers.

    The below article sums it up pretty well. I have spoiled the bulk of the article as well in case any are unable to view it.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/22/...trump-clinton/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    his year’s grueling U.S. presidential campaign has had the occasion to discuss the Ku Klux Klan, Tim Kaine, and Don King, but not the K-word that every citizen of South Asia instantly knows by shorthand: Kashmir. In all likelihood, Americans will soon recognize this as a costly omission. Whoever wins the White House in November will likely be forced, early in his or her administration, to address a crisis that is quickly coming to a head — one involving jihadi terrorism, nuclear weapons, and military conflict, with the potential to unsettle American allies and interests across Asia.

    Kashmir is the unresolved business of India’s bloody partition in 1947, when the departing British colonialists carved out the new nation-state of Pakistan for the Muslims of the subcontinent. A large part of Muslim-majority Kashmir remained a part of India while Pakistan seized a smaller portion, leaving it as a major bone of contention and the site of multiple wars between the two countries. Seventy years have passed, but there is no end in sight to the India-Pakistan rivalry to reclaim the whole of the territory.





    An outraged Indian government rightly believes the civilian unrest and armed extremist attacks in Indian Kashmir are the handiwork of the Pakistani intelligence and military. Most of the world tends to agree. Islamabad’s efforts to raise the “Kashmir problem” in international forums are mostly being met with shrugs and snubs. Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has appointed nearly two dozen emissaries to lobby world capitals to galvanize opposition to India’s “occupation” of Kashmir and has also been ratcheting up mentions of the “K” word at the U.N. General Assembly — but to no avail. Most of the international community, barring some countries in the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, is saying that if Kashmir matters at all, it is not as a freedom struggle but as a flash point for jihadis acting on Pakistan’s behest.



    But the U.S. presidential contenders seem not to be moved by the present crisis at all. India and Pakistan, governments and citizens alike, have been scrutinizing Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton and her Republican rival, Donald Trump, for signals of how they would fashion their South Asia policies. The Democratic Party’s platform promises to maintain President Barack Obama’s definite tilt toward India — “the world’s largest democracy, a nation of great diversity, and an important Pacific power” — while continuing to apply pressure on Pakistan to “deny terrorists sanctuary” on its soil. The Republican Party’s platform echoes similar sentiments to its counterpart by calling India a “geopolitical ally and a strategic trading partner” while wryly noting about Pakistan that a “working relationship is … necessary, though sometimes difficult.” Republicans also call for “ridding the region of the Taliban and securing Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal,” highlighting American anxieties about Islamabad’s status as a sponsor of jihadis and host to the world’s fastest-growing nuclear weapons arsenal.



    This is all part of a tendency by the U.S. government to view India and Pakistan primarily as potential partners that can serve American interests in Asia, with India considered the preferred alternative and Pakistan seen as a problem to be managed. Washington favors abstracting from the Kashmir crisis in service of its own regional interests, rather than addressing it in specific terms. But to that extent, its approach to crisis diplomacy there has not kept pace with events. The United States still feigns a studied neutrality in Kashmir, when it should be actively intervening in a way to clear a path for its deepening alliance with India.
    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been leveraging the country’s soft and hard power to isolate Pakistan on Kashmir. Yet, as the Uri attack demonstrated, marginalizing Pakistan on Kashmir is not enough to shut down Islamabad’s jihadi proxies or mitigate civilian disenchantment in Indian-administered Kashmir. Moreover, Modi is sensitive enough to public opinion in India that he feels compelled to retaliate each time Pakistani-trained jihadis cross over the Line of Control and perpetrate brutal violence on Indian soldiers and civilians. Options including the “hot pursuit” of terrorists inside Pakistani territory and the assassinations of jihadi leaders are not off the table in New Delhi. All of which suggests the Kashmir crisis will get much hotter in the time ahead.



    Already, the Indian prime minister has delivered a tit-for-tat blow to Islamabad by mounting a diplomatic and unmentioned covert action strategy to support anti-Pakistani separatists in the war-torn Pakistani province of Baluchistan. The Pakistani military establishment, for its part, has traumatic memories of the Indian military intervention that severed Pakistan in 1971 and birthed the new nation of Bangladesh. Modi’s strategy of hitting Pakistan where it hurts, i.e., in regions where the state’s control is shaky, is bound to have a reflex reaction in the form of intensified Pakistani-inspired protests and attacks in Indian Kashmir.



    It would be an understatement that matters in Kashmir are coming to a head after a few years of quiet. A relatively weakened and cornered Pakistan, like North Korea, is also a more dangerous Pakistan. Something’s going to give, and when it does, it won’t just be Kashmir on the line. Another full-scale or quasi-war over Kashmir is sure to have spillover effects, as India and Pakistan are both nuclear-armed and share a tense international border, along which the populous provinces of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, and Rajasthan lie. Hopes of containing the Taliban in Afghanistan will be set back if Pakistan returns to total war with India, since Islamabad would view domination over Kabul via a resurgent Taliban as necessary for “strategic depth” with respect to India. Kashmir is a trigger for mayhem in South Asia.



    Clinton and Trump cannot ignore this tinderbox. The winner of their contest will have to find a way to tamp down the terrorism emanating from Pakistan that has made Kashmir a simmering hotbed. But assuaging the interrelated fears and concerns of both Pakistan and India will require sustained American strategy — not the diplomatic clichés devoid of substance that have long marked Washington’s policy prescriptions.
    What’s clear is that Pakistan would like formal U.S. mediation on the territorial dispute in Kashmir, which is precisely what India will not countenance. Creative diplomats, however, can create confidence-building measures to help break that impasse. If a President Clinton or Trump uses civilian and military aid as a lever to pressure Pakistan to have its jihadi allies in Kashmir cease their attacks, Modi can then be persuaded to ease the massive Indian military presence that antagonizes civilians in Kashmir and can encourage more democratic administration in the restive region.


    By pressing Pakistan to abandon its proxy war in Kashmir and reduce its hostility toward India, Obama’s successor can meet America’s bigger need for a strong Indian strategic partner that can counterbalance China in Asia. But that will first require that he or she diagnoses early on the true roots of the current Kashmir crisis and realizes that it is building up to explode.


    Here's further details regarding the deaths of the 17 Indian troops;

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-in-kashmir-a/

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/0...055803596.html

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...ir-755276.html

    Also here is some info regarding an ongoing attack;

    http://www.voanews.com/a/ap-indian-t...r/3543792.html

    So what do you guys think? Will there be an all out war? Will this be the major foreign policy issue facing the new US president or will it all have blown over by November?

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    Harith's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Does it have any critical natural resources?

    If yes, then prepare the bunkers. If not, then both sides will probably continue this back and forth.

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    I dont want to see USA or China meddling into this affair, for once it still considered internal problem of India and should remain as such. After all there are few countries the size of India which dont have similar problems in some parts of their territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harith View Post
    Does it have any critical natural resources?
    Indus river flows from this region into Pakistan. So if India diverts or changes its flow this could potentially have great huge effect on whole region....
    Last edited by Fanest; October 10, 2016 at 02:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanest View Post
    I dont want to see USA or China meddling into this affair, for once it still considered internal problem of India and should remain as such. After all there are few countries the size of India which dont have similar problems in some parts of their territory.
    Good luck on that. China is making too much money selling Pakistan weapons and helping check India at the same. This is in turn pushing India towards America.
    Last edited by Vanoi; October 10, 2016 at 03:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Ya China is heavily invested in Pakistan through their "economic corridor". China won't sit this one out


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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    A short war over Kasmir between India and Pakistan has become an occasional thing. So too for artillery exchanges. As long as it remains exclusively between India and Pakistan nothing big is likely to come of it. If others intervene on one side or the other, then all bets are off.

    The Middle East is directly adjacent and is going up in flames because of religious antagonists and inept political decisions in Washington and Europe. The situation in India has parallels and the potential to broaden an already disjointed conflagration presently happening in the Levant. If the dominoes start falling, then you can expect a catastrophic result.

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    At the same time there is a massive resurgence in protests and discontent in Kasmir against Indian occupation, which Pakistan has been manipulating and encouraging for it's own ends.
    Except those protests are largely started by newly emerged third party that wants an independent Kashmir, so Pakistan may connect with those protests, but I doubt it would gain much from it. Overall, the time of a Pakistani Kashmir or Hindu Kashmir seems coming to the end, and the population in Kashmir slowly become more favor an independent Kashmir that has nothing to do with those two regional powers.

    Anyway, the border conflict between those two states never really stop, so I don't think a full scale war is coming from this skirmish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Except those protests are largely started by newly emerged third party that wants an independent Kashmir, so Pakistan may connect with those protests, but I doubt it would gain much from it. Overall, the time of a Pakistani Kashmir or Hindu Kashmir seems coming to the end, and the population in Kashmir slowly become more favor an independent Kashmir that has nothing to do with those two regional powers.

    Anyway, the border conflict between those two states never really stop, so I don't think a full scale war is coming from this skirmish.
    I'm pretty sure that the higher ups in Pakistan consider anything that weakens or even annoys India to be a benefit to Pakistan.

    But on a serious note, the rivers that flow from Kashmir are of vital importance to Pakistan. Without it their agricultural based economy will basically collapse and that's not including the literally millions that will be severely effected by a dangerous lack of drinking water.

    If Kashmir was to become independent (unlikely scenario, but still), it's main benefactor would be Pakistan as it would be far easier for Pakistan to negotiate advantageous water rights with a weak independent Kashmir than a strong unified India.

    Pakistan's sponsorship and direction of Kashmiri militants is the only thing they have to 'hurt' India outside of conventional warfare. I agree that these skirmishes rarely lead to anything significant, but if Indian army units do cross the border and they were to be confronted by regular Pakistani troops, then a skirmish could easily snowball into a full scale battle.

    What complicates matters (as the main article I linked discusses) is on which side will the future US administration fall on? Will they back the far more economically important rising power of India or will they back Pakistan, a nation crucial for their war on Terror regarding Afghanistan and who's nuclear arsenal they are desperate to make sure stays out of the wrong hands?
    Last edited by IrishBlood; October 11, 2016 at 06:28 AM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    What complicates matters (as the main article I linked discusses) is on which side will the future US administration fall on? Will they back the far more economically important rising power of India or will they back Pakistan, a nation crucial for their war on Terror regarding Afghanistan and who's nuclear arsenal they are desperate to make sure stays out of the wrong hands?
    Back? US would just say let Kashmir self-determine its fate, which suits US best. Besides India is more a Russian buddy than an American buddy, so if India did not support West to fight Russia, why West needs to support India?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Fact is UN and America should've been involved in actual geopolitical crisis instead of Middle East and Russia. Issues like Kashmir and North Korea present a much greater threat to world peace.

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    It didn't start with the Uni attack.

    There's been an indigenous uprising in Kashmir for almost a month now. India portrays it as a Pakistani-orchestrated movement whereas Pakistan wants to the world to think it has nothing to do with it. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Pakistan encourages these protests but it's important to distinguish Pakistan (armed and unarmed) operatives from indigenous Kashmiris who do not want to be ruled by New Delhi.
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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    When is the human race going to learn that a few rocks aren't worth fighting over. Why is Kashmir worth fighting over?

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Back? US would just say let Kashmir self-determine its fate, which suits US best. Besides India is more a Russian buddy than an American buddy, so if India did not support West to fight Russia, why West needs to support India?
    Never, ever going to happen. The US has virtually always in recent years been against the changing of borders and/or self determination of new nations. The only the notable exceptions to this have been Kosovo and South Sudan, who both got their independence from the 'hostile' nations of Serbia and Sudan.

    Openly supporting Kashmiri Independence would sour relations with India and could easily push them from being a 'buddy' of Russia to an ally. The west needs to support India for financial reasons. Their economy is massive and growing. Just look at China, the US and China are constantly sabre rattling over the south China seas, but they're still each others biggest trade partners.

    It's not as simple as 'They're friends with Russia and we don't like Russia, so we can't be friends any more!'

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    When is the human race going to learn that a few rocks aren't worth fighting over. Why is Kashmir worth fighting over?
    The rocks are not important, the water that flows through them is. As I have already said. Multiple times. It is absolutely vital for the survival of agriculture and water security in Pakistan's most populous regions.

    Under the treaties that saw Kashmir divided between India, Pakistan and to a lesser extent China, certain rivers were given as exclusive water rights to Pakistan. This annoys many Indian people and politicians as that water on 'Indian' land could be used to help India's agriculture, power grid etc. This is dangerous thinking as Pakistan would legit go to war to prevent those rivers being diverted.

    At the same time the people of Kashmir consider themselves to being treated as second-class citizens and want autonomy, if not Independence. The people of Kashmir are fighting for their rights, while India and Pakistan could soon be fighting over their water. There's a lot more at stake here than rocks.

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    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    Never, ever going to happen. The US has virtually always in recent years been against the changing of borders and/or self determination of new nations. The only the notable exceptions to this have been Kosovo and South Sudan, who both got their independence from the 'hostile' nations of Serbia and Sudan.

    Openly supporting Kashmiri Independence would sour relations with India and could easily push them from being a 'buddy' of Russia to an ally. The west needs to support India for financial reasons. Their economy is massive and growing. Just look at China, the US and China are constantly sabre rattling over the south China seas, but they're still each others biggest trade partners.

    It's not as simple as 'They're friends with Russia and we don't like Russia, so we can't be friends any more!'
    India also needs West's investment, most people wrongly thought economy is an one-side issue. Furthermore, "self-determine" does not equal independence; it is simply a blank term West throw out so it does not need to choose a clear stance, makes everything easier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  15. #15

    Default Re: Impending doom in Kasmir. India and Pakistan on verge of war?

    Its not just a few rocks - it never is that simple. India is quite fragmented and diverse country and if starts cracking it could crack whole.
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