PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (included in 097+)

[j.a.luna]

Yes, but i think that was made for important settlements in the game,not for alls, like constantinople,jerusalem,toledo...

[Jurand of Cracow]

Guys,
now another request: the titles for the British islands' PTs. What do you propose historically? Duke of ... in which cases? Preemptively: I'm against using to many of the local names, as you know, eg. concerning Poland and Hungary only Latin names were used. So I don't think very Scottish / Irish names should be used.


And this is proposal for France, given my knowledge on the country and after balancing the numbers according to the rules

[Svir@c]

Crown: Corona Hungariae
PTs for the orthodox: Knyaz, as usual.
PTs for the catholics - Comes, as it is.

Perhaps to be used sometime in future. Pozsony, Temesvar are not on the map, the other are offices. Actually, Hungary is now exceptional to have it's own version of office - Palatinus. But the offices are something different, not provincial titles or crowns.

Ok, the names-titles you already have are good I'm just giving you another ones (and the same also) to get the picture or information how to used them!? Like, instead of Temesi ... you can used it for region which you have in game, already (can't be wrong by much and neither un-historical, to much)! And there I wrote about two regions Zagreb and Zadar (Zara) to (ingame), and with title Ban-similar of Vayvoda or Zsupan Choose wisely ...
And Serbia, that's another tematic also, not by much, but similar like Croats, Hungary, Byzys ...

[j.a.luna]

OK sship team, continue with the next step for PTF submod, this time are the descriptions and effects for differents settlements in the file of export_ancillaries.txt
here the new descriptions and effects for the regions of CUMANIA AND GERMANY(HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE)

NOTE: Jurand, i reuploaded again the file of list of settlements for germany, because in my list were not Prague and Olomoc (coat of arms and ancillaries), i saw in your excel file for 67 provinces...


DOWNLOAD HERE:

REUPLOADEDGERMANY,SCANDINAVIANS,CUMANS.7z

DESCRIPTIONSPTs DESCRIPTIONS CUMANS AND GERMANY.7z

[Lifthrasir]

JoC, is "culture" related to the education such as universities for example? Same question about "authority"; does it include the administration factor?
I'm asking because some settlements were famous for their univerty which provided clerk, lawers, etc who basically helped the royal administration who itself was able to centralized its authority over the country and even outside for some cases.

[Jurand of Cracow]

JoC, is "culture" related to the education such as universities for example? Same question about "authority"; does it include the administration factor?
I'm asking because some settlements were famous for their univerty which provided clerk, lawers, etc who basically helped the royal administration who itself was able to centralized its authority over the country and even outside for some cases.

I understand your question in 2 ways.
I. it's about education system: is education culture-related.
Yes and no.
There're 4 cultures. Pagans have a different system, not yet modded by me, working somehow, but I haven't analysed it. At some point I may have a go on it.
3 other cultures have the same triggers. This was a difficult choice. For instance, I had a problem with castle library - accessible just for some factions, so I haven't included it. In future it's possible to differenciate between cultures, but there's a precondition: stabilization of the building chain (ie: declaration from the SSHIP team that the buildings will not be changed - otherwise the work would be wasted).
However, the 3 cultures have different effects - as described here. So you may say that education is culture-differentiated.
II.
Should the traditions of education / administration a region / city taken into account in assigning the benefits for the PTs (provincional titles).
Yes, they should. Eg. Paris - culture and authority.
However, keep in mind that the PTs should probably be about whole provinces. So Montpellier, even with it's great university, wouldn't weight much in the province, I think.
Furthermore: balancig, balancing. There should be PT typical for military leaders even if for each French province you'd think about particular features for governors - agriculture, culture.

[Jurand of Cracow]

here the new descriptions and effects for the regions of CUMANIA AND GERMANY(HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE

Great, j.a.luna! Thank you, very helpful!
Now you've got here the material for the East European provinces.
With Scandinavia we have to wait for decision what to do with the alphabet issues.

East_Europe_provinces.zip

[Lifthrasir]

The problem I have with your example for France is how to define culture and authority. If you take Orleans for example, it was part of the royal domain. 2 kings were sacred in its cathedrale. It has an university (Law one if I remember correctly). So from my understanding, the title for Orleans should reflects these somehow.

Toulouse also had an university later than Orleans, but for medicine if I remember it correctly as well. So, in that case, that shouldn't have any influence on the title.

See my point

[Jurand of Cracow]

I absolutely see your point. And there're many simplifications, untrue things etc. But we just need to provide a feel for a player. So don't delve into the issues, just tell if there're major problems or the feel is bad or you've got different fees.
Eg. I've assigned +Mining for Clermont. Maybe there're no mines in the Clermot region? Or maybe Reims is not associated with Authority? That would be a major mistake and I'd change it.

Somehow unrelated: Riga. If we take the approach to apply the names as there're in 1st half of the 12 century - as we do with Lubeck: Liubice or Koenigsberg: Twangste, or Nuernberg, then Riga should have a different name (probably Seaborg). However, from the beginning of 13 century it should be Riga indeed.

[Lifthrasir]

I think for such cases as Riga, we just need to consider for how long during the game period, the settlement has each name and only keep the longest one.

Noted about the titles. Btw, many French titles have a different spelling. For instance, Duke title can be found written Duc or Dux. For Count, it can be Conte, Cuens or Quens. It depends how deep you want the immersion into the game

Also, for some regions, there's no specific names or titles. Orleans and Paris regions don't have a specific name as far as I could find so far. No title for Paris or Reims except Bishop. Even considering that many Bishops were nominated by the King instead by the Pope, I'm not sure you want to use it.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think for such cases as Riga, we just need to consider for how long during the game period, the settlement has each name and only keep the longest one.

Yes. I'd propose the following way forwards:
- keep all the code names of the provinces and the settlements as they are now (changes of these names made mess with the provincial titels; besides - you need to sort out what the code names actually are, as in my PM...)
- any changes for the names will be through the TEXT file, which is actually a mask put on the names. If there'd be a demand to change a name in High or Late era, then it'll be done through such a mask, not a code name.
- let's gather the informations about names in different eras. I'll do it in this thread - entry 4. (I've just checked info about Sigtuna and I think it's right for the Early era, but for High and Late it should be Uppsala; or Lubeck: at the beginning Liubice, but High and Late - Lubeck).
/note: names of the PT (provincial titles) will not be changed unless at some point somebody makes another version of EA file. However it makes any point of doing it before all the titles are done and all the provicne names are fixed, so we may think about it in 5 years time, perhaps)

INoted about the titles. Btw, many French titles have a different spelling. For instance, Duke title can be found written Duc or Dux. For Count, it can be Conte, Cuens or Quens. It depends how deep you want the immersion into the game

Given the use of French by the English and probably by the Germanic nobles, I'd say: let's make it Duc and Conte (or anything like this).

Also, for some regions, there's no specific names or titles. Orleans and Paris regions don't have a specific name as far as I could find so far. No title for Paris or Reims except Bishop. Even considering that many Bishops were nominated by the King instead by the Pope, I'm not sure you want to use it.

Yes, this is a well known problem from elsewhere on the map, eg. Hungary (Archbishop of Esztergom etc.) - actually, I think it's very rare when you've got 1:1 reflection of the real world in the game. The solution: create something resembling history. Ecclesiastical names will NOT be used, but you need to create something what a player may feel plausible (Comes X, in case of Hungary). So use your imagination

[Lifthrasir]

Your stuff, your rules

But yes, that's also my idea. Settlements/regions' names should only be changed via the text file to avoid mistakes and confusion.

Not sure that our English and German fellows will like to use the old French for their respective titles

Noted for the titles. That confirms my original thought. I'll find a solution

[Jurand of Cracow]

So, I saw I read it! There's, really not much to add, you got it! Back then Hungarians ("high" borns-nobility) used Latin language mostly, court, writings etc... shikaka did the great jobb! A title is Corona Hungariae (Szent Korona or Holly Crown), don't know about short one but will look again for this one. Croats and Serbs have Župan (Ispán - Hungarian) in title, but there's also a Knez (Knyaz-Comes-Knyáz) in King reference, and Vojvoda, but came much latter.

Svir@c,
I wondered whether the provincial names in-game are right: Lower Hungary, Upper Hungary, Pannonian Plain.
What do you think?

[Lifthrasir]

Titles and provinces for France:

1. Roazhon (name in Briton)
French name: Rennes
Province: Bretaigne (Britany)
Title: Duc (Duke)
Description:

2. Angers
Province: Anjou (should be correct but still checking)
Title: Conte de Anjou (Count of Anjou)
Description:

3. Rouen
Province: Normandie (Normandy)
Title: Duc de Normandie (Duke of Normandy)
Description:

4. Poitiers
Province: Poitou, possibly Poictou (to be confirmed)
Title: Conte de Poitiers (Count of Poitiers)
Description:

5. Bordeaux
Province: Aquitaine (became Guyenne from 1229 AD)
Title: Duc de Aquitaine (Duke of Aquitaine) or Duc de Guyenne (Duke of Guyenne) if that option is choosen.
Description:

6. Toulouse
Province: Languedoc (used from 1209 AD, before just called County of Toulouse)
Title: Conte de Toulouse (Count of Toulouse)
Description:

7. Clermont
Province: Auvergne
Title: Conte de Auvergne (Count of Auvergne)
Description:

8. Arles
Province: Provence Ocidental (Western Provence - not accurate but best guess for the game)
Title: Conte de Arles (Count of Arles)
Description:

9. Nizza (Italian name)
French name: Nice
Province: Provence Orïental (Eastern Provence - not accurate but best guess for the game)
Title: Conte de Nice (Count of Nice)
Description:
Note: Originally an Italian Republic based on Genoese model.

10. Lyon
Province: Albon Viennois (Viennese Albon)
Title: Dauphin de Viennois (Viennese Dauphin, same as Count of Albon-Viennois)
Description:

11.Orleans
Province: Orleanais (subject to change)
Title: Conte de Orleans (Count of Orleans)
Description:
Note: Can't find a real province name. Used to be considered as the French capital before Louis VI the Fat. Title of Count used until the end of the 10th century. Title of Duke used from 1344 AD (created by the French King to give it to his youngest son). Nothing found between both.

12. Troyes
Province: Hault/Hausse Champaigne (High Champagne - still need to find the right translation for "High" in old French)
Title: Conte de Champaigne (Count of Champagne)
Description:

13. Reims
Province: Basse Champaigne (Low Champagne)
Title: Conte de Roucy (Count of Roucy)
Description:
Note: the right title for Reims was Archbishop. Roucy was a county very near to Reims.

14. Dijon
Province: Bourgoigne (Burgundy)
Title: Duc de Bourgoigne (Duke of Burgundy)
Description:
Note: do not confuse with the Kingdom of Burgundy which was under HRE rule.

15. Paris
Province: Isle de France (not accurate but best guess for the game)
Title: Conte de Paris (Count of Paris - real title but under Carolingian dynasty - best guess for the game anyway)
Description:

16. Gand
Province: Flandres (Flanders)
Title: Conte de Flandres (Count of Flanders)
Description:

Additional info - Title in old French:

Empreror: Emperere or Emperéres
King: Roy (can be also Reis but might be confusing with Spanish title)
Marquis: Marchis
Baron: Barun (used for general meaning for Nobles rather as a specific title)

I'll update this post with the missing info as soon as I find them
Btw, I guess that I should do the same for the CS faction I also found that Jerusalem should be Hierusalem (as actually named during that period).

[j.a.luna]

Here the PTF DESCRIPTIONS FOR ALL EAST EUROPE(POLAND, LITHUANIA,RUTHENIA, NOVGOROD,KIEVAN RUS AND HUNGARY)



PTs DESCRIPTIONS EAST EUROPE_.7z

Jurand, when you can answer the PM and also tell me what is the next step for work

[Jurand of Cracow]

@Lifth, You may prompt me to review also the names in Poland ;-)
Eg. Gdansk appears in the source in 11 c. as URBS GYDDANYZC. So Gyddanyz. However, in late 14 c. something like Danzike due to the North German immigration.
I think we should make it an ongoing work in future (again, it's for years: when somebody plays a faction, delves into the sources, and discoveres the right versions. This will be done through masks in the next versions of the SSHIP.
However, for now we need the complete all PTs - both in conceptual part (names, benefits, descriptions) and in the implementation (changing code). I think it'd be best to do all the settlements, given that j.a.luna is busy with implementation. We're somehow at 40% of work, I think, but given that I've got experience with balancing and j.a.luna gathered the names for all the settlement, we're somewhere at 50%.
Furthermore, I still discerning the issues. For instance on France as you see the table, the "general" types of PTs is concentrated in the north (Roazhon, Angers, Rouen, Orleans). I think it'd be better to swap Rouen with Toulouse, with moving +Mining somewhere else. Hmmm.
@j.a.luna - great work! I'll answer to your PM.

[Lifthrasir]

There are still some points that confusing me for the description. I'll update my post above but you'll need to check if it's correct.

For example, Flanders has mostly an "industrial" farming production, meaning generating the raw for the textile industry (linen, colours, etc...). In that case, do you still considering that settlement with "agriculture" bonus

Orleans was somehow the 1st French capital under the first Capetian kings. It has also a famous university (13th century) for clerics and lawyers. So it should be authority and religion. Am I right?

Nizza (or Nice) was famous for its anti-French behaviour. That city prefered to be under the County of Savoy ruling than under the French one. There were quite numerous revolts while under the French ruling. Finally, it was famous for its salt trade. It should be trade and what: authority? military leader?
This can be also applied to Gand (anti-French feeling leading to revolts).

That's just to fill the description as you wish (at least close to it )

[Jurand of Cracow]

Flanders has mostly an "industrial" farming production, meaning generating the raw for the textile industry (linen, colours, etc...). In that case, do you still considering that settlement with "agriculture" bonus

Orleans was somehow the 1st French capital under the first Capetian kings. It has also a famous university (13th century) for clerics and lawyers. So it should be authority and religion. Am I right?

Nizza (or Nice) was famous for its anti-French behaviour. That city prefered to be under the County of Savoy ruling than under the French one. There were quite numerous revolts while under the French ruling. Finally, it was famous for its salt trade. It should be trade and what: authority? military leader?
This can be also applied to Gand (anti-French feeling leading to revolts)

Flanders - sophisticated agriculture was a prerequisit for any province to get rich. To my knowledge, Flanders had one of the most advanced agriculture systems in Europe in the Middle Ages. So I believe the bonus is legitimate. What you're saying is true, but there's no "industry" bonus, just trade or agriculture. Trade 30% plus Farmin +2 is probably the biggest production bonus in-game. No other can match its. In a good province it'll give over 1000 florins. So I'd defend my choice ;-)

Orleans - ok for authority. So should we move Lyon bonus to Orleans, and popularity bonus to Lyon (so that overall figure remains the same). Religion - well, there's already 3 cities with Piety bonus in France (Paris, Reims, Clermont). Of course, almost all provinces could boast cathedrals and monasteries in France in the MAs. For instance, I hesitated to give it to Dijon (you know Vezelay and the whole cluster around Cluny). So I'd rather to move bonus from Clermont to Dijon, not to Orleans. But what to move to Clermont for it to have at least 2?

Nizza - there's already much trade! I'd rather consider moving one away ;-) Despite that attitude to the French, I'd rather make the currents effects stay. I think it's more legitimate to give 1 Defence to Gand, if you think it fit. But what should we decrease?

[Lifthrasir]

My examples above are just... examples
That's just to get the right understanding
I'll make the description in the relevant post and let you to decide. After all, your stuff, your choice

[Jurand of Cracow]

Here's a simple way to read the unique letters in the names:
Þ/þ = Hard '"th" sound like in "thin"
Ð/ð = Soft "th" sound like in "then"
Ó/ó = "o" sound like in "tool"
Ǫ/ǫ = "o" sound like in "coffee"
Í/í = "e" sound like in "feet"

I think for the sake of safe compatibility we need to do it in ASCII.
So how should a transcription of þ and ð look like ? I'd propose the following: t and d

Jarl í Borgartingslog
Jarl í Gulatingslog
Jarl í Vestrgautland
Jarl í Svítjod
Jarl í Smáland
Jarl í Gutland
Jarl í Skáney
Jarl í Sjáland
Jarl í Jótland