PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (included in 097+)

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, Lifth!

For Muslim factions, here are their titles with correspondance to the Catholic one (from the site you mentioned):
Sultan: King
Amir: Prince
Mushir or Musaitir: Duke
Qadi: Count
Naquib or Naqib: Viscount
Shayk or Sheik: Baron

From that, you just need to keep the same logic: a Count title would become Qadi (and the other way around) and so on.

I think Quadi was much associated with the judical system. It was basically a judge. And a quick look at Wikipedia confirms it, more or less. I'd more inclined to use Amir and Mushir - even if the Wikipedia states that Mushir was more about military matters while the PTs are about being granted a fief. Well, still maybe somebody more knowledgeable would advise us...

There's no point to make difference between "Arab" and "Turk" as basically, almost all Muslim factions represented in game have Seljuk origin. Fatimids used the same titles and I guess that it was also the same for Almoravids.

I don't quite agree. Being Berbers, the Almoravids and perhaps also Fatimids were much "arabicised" in their culture. The Turks were quite alien to them... I think we need more research. I'm more inclined to leave that Malik and Amir for them. Actually, Amir is the same for both, isn't.

[j.a.luna]

Mmm you can research in other mods as bellum crucis or broken crescent, i think that they could give you some answer...

[Lifthrasir]

Regarding ERE additional titles, there were Magistros, Vestarches and Dux. I haven't look "deeper" yet about these.

Thanks, Lifth!

I think Quadi was much associated with the judical system. It was basically a judge. And a quick look at Wikipedia confirms it, more or less. I'd more inclined to use Amir and Mushir - even if the Wikipedia states that Mushir was more about military matters while the PTs are about being granted a fief. Well, still maybe somebody more knowledgeable would advise us...

Well I don't know about Qadi/Quadi title but trust your opinion.

I don't quite agree. Being Berbers, the Almoravids and perhaps also Fatimids were much "arabicised" in their culture. The Turks were quite alien to them... I think we need more research. I'm more inclined to leave that Malik and Amir for them. Actually, Amir is the same for both, isn't.

That's a bit more complicated than that actually. I leave the Almoravids for now but the only title I could find so far for Berbers is Amir.
Regarding Fatimids, it depends if you consider their "last days" only or the Ayyubids as well. The main problem with Bedouins during Saladin reign was their seasonal availability. For instance, during the siege of Acre from 1188 to 1191, the Jaziran troops (Bedouin one) went home for harvest every autumn but the siege and war with the Crusaders continued. Hence the later Ayyubid ruler, al-Salih Ayyub decided to rely mainly on a cash-based garrisoned elite-army consisting of Turkish and Circassian slaves (mamluks) who served as professional full-time soldiers. To stay short, Bedouins were progressively integrated into the framework of the Zangid-Ayyubid state. They did not constitute any military challenge. So to come back to our point, I think that Turkish titles can be used for all Muslim factions except Almoravids.

Beside that, another title that can be used is Atabeg. However, not sure it is is the "real local" name. Need to check

[Jurand of Cracow]

Orthodox in Greek: Strategos and Dux look good. But how should the genetive case be constructed (eg. Strategos of Ulm or Ulm Strategos)?
Orthodox in Ruthenian: Voivoda and Knyaz (eg. Voivoda Ulmskyi)
Muslim in Arabic: Amir and Malik (eg. Al-Amir al-Ulm)
Muslim in Turkish: Amir and Beg (?)

@Almoravids - yeah, it'd be interesting which titles were used by Ayyubids and then Mamluks.

[Eldgrimr]

Muslim in Turkish: Amir and Beg (?)

Luckily I am part Turkish, so I can help out with that. Just wondering, in the game, what are the different Turkish titles supposed to correspond to?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Have a look here on two before. Basically - a title of a noble in charge of management of / responsible for / given fief in a province.

[Eldgrimr]

There are three major vassal titles that I can think of that were used in by the Seljuks.
Atabeg = title used by the leader of the Zengids
Beg = Chieftain/emir/leader of a principality/beglik
Amir/emir (not sure which was used by Seljuks, but emir was used by modern Turks and Ottomans)

[Lifthrasir]

Atabeg title wasn't only used by Zengids.There are records of the use of that title in Iran, Irak, by Mamluks, by the Seljuks of Rûm and even by the Georgian (see here for more info).
According to this article, atabeg can be written as atābak.

[Jurand of Cracow]

There are three major vassal titles that I can think of that were used in by the Seljuks.
Atabeg = title used by the leader of the Zengids
Beg = Chieftain/emir/leader of a principality/beglik
Amir/emir (not sure which was used by Seljuks, but emir was used by modern Turks and Ottomans)

the entry "Beg" in the encyclopedia provided by Lifth ("equivalent to the Arabic-Persian amīr")
the entry for "Amir" also: "In subsequent general Saljuq usage, amir was employed as a designation for princes of the Saljuq royal house and also for the great commanders of state."

This confirms that both forms are possible. If no other title would be found then the pair amir-atabeg would be used, even if I'm not so enthusiastic about it - I still think a different kind of "better beg/amir" title might have existed...

[Lifthrasir]

Can't find anything else. I think you'll have to deal with these titles only.

[tmodelsk]

Jurand - I've included your latest version of this mod & your GTCS in my SSHIP-Tweaks mod.
I hope you dont' mind, please give me your permission.
Credits are given to you, links are given to your threads.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Of course, granted.
Congratulations on the mod compilation! Many of them are what I'd want do see in the game: supply rules, merchants removed, fight for revival! And the Wiki - really appreciated!

[j.a.luna]

Jurand, mate, some progress in your minimods? They will be ready for next version of sship?
Some news about progress work always is welcome

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi j.a.luna,
I'm getting ready to further it a bit using the work you've done a couple months ago. It will always first appear in this minimod, later will be included in the next SSHIP version.
In the meantime I'm refining historical background for the titles editing this entry occassionally - when I get new information.
JoC

[j.a.luna]

Ok friend, i am glad to know that my work was useful for you and sship, now i am busy with my real work but i would like help us in save time amd work...
I hope good news about your minimod and next version of sship( i want play the new campaign and enjoy it)

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm reading this book: Le monde byzantin. Tome 2, L'Empire byzantin (641-1204), Jean-Claude Cheynet.
It seems that the title "strategos" which we use for the Orthodox titles, ceased to be used in the sense of responsibility for an administrative unit in the 11th century, and was replaced by "dux" and "katepan". Maybe somebody could comment on this?

[j.a.luna]

Mmm i think that for current era of sship is better the last option,dux and katepan, strategos was a general concept for military general and after it was replaced... wikipedia tell the same case....

In the Byzantine era of the Roman Empire, the position of dux survived (Byzantine Greek: "δούξ", doux, plural "δούκες", doukes) as a rank equivalent to a general (strategos). In the late 10th and early 11th centuries, a doux or katepano was in charge of large circumscriptions consisting of several smaller themata and of the professional regiments (tagmata) of the Byzantine army (as opposed to the largely militia-like forces of most themata). In the Komnenian period, the title of doux replaced altogether the strategos in designating the military official in charge of a thema. In the Byzantine navy, doukes of the fleet appear in the 1070s, and the office of megas doux ("grand duke") was created in the 1090s as the commander-in-chief of the entire navy.

The title also gave rise to a family name, the aristocratic Doukas clan, which in the 9th–11th centuries provided several Byzantine emperors and generals, while later bearers of the name (maternally descended from the original family) founded the Despotate of Epirus in northwestern Greece.

Pd: i hope that your great work continue go forward my friend, also i would like know what you will do for Constantinople tittle, that i talked to you some time ago, this city is the queen of cities and maybe should be ''special'' for this tittle( more attributes than a normal huge city)
Some news are welcome!

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Excellent work Jurand!

[Jale82]

I think that governor of Zagreb/Zadar should have title "Ban of Croatia/Dalmatia". Duke was not really historical title for any aristocrat in Croatia when it was part of Kingdom Of Hungary.
Description is allright (something like "in charge of regnum of Croatorum").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_of_Croatia

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think that governor of Zagreb/Zadar should have title "Ban of Croatia/Dalmatia". Duke was not really historical title for any aristocrat in Croatia when it was part of Kingdom Of Hungary.
Description is allright (something like "in charge of regnum of Croatorum").

Are you using this submod? I thought I'd changed it into Banus Croatiae.