PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (included in 097+)

**j.a.luna** · April 02, 2017, 05:39 PM

Furthemore here you have the other part, NORTH AFRICA AND EGYPT

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NORTH AFRICA AND EGYPT.7z

**Lifthrasir** · April 03, 2017, 12:58 AM

@ Eldgrimr, thanks for the confirmation. I had doubt since I've read that Finland was actually a real Swedish colony.

@ j.a.luna, that's the idea. Btw, I said I was taking care of France

@ JoC, still regarding France, do you still want to use the local language for the titles?
I'm asking to check it in the right way. Also, the question for Flemish settlements will be: should we use their French names or their Flemish names? For instance, Gand is French where Gent is Flemish. The region's name in French (nowadays French, not the old one) is "Flandre Orientale" (East Flanders) where it is "Oost Vlaanderen" in Flemish.

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 03, 2017, 03:39 AM

General remark on the crowns: guys, please refrain from the sweeping comments until I publish a thread on the crowns. They exist now in the EDA/EA, some are broken already on coding (not existing names), some are broken on conditions (crown of England requires you having Coimbra), in general they're just a chrome with little use in the game. The names are also generic, with some totally ahistorical ones ("King of Slaves").
I'll try to fix it without extending - at least for the first version. And before any modding the analysis will be submitted to your comments.
For now, I'm in the analysis phase collecting the necessary information. j.a.luna's work is very helpful, as is your info on possible names.

Originally Posted by Eldgrimr

I guess the best title would be "*country*s krone" If you wanna use "crown of *country*".

There's just King of Skandinavia titel. Wait to see the analysis :-)

Originally Posted by Lifthrasir

- King of Scandinavia (admitting the player has conquered Norway, Sweden and Denmark): Norrœnkonungr
Question: should we include Finland for the last title?

This will be in the analysis and proposal. You need to take both history and gameplay into consideration - and this case is pretty straightforward, the answers are: yes, yes. (they concept of the crowns will also be defined also in terms of the countries' ambitions)

Originally Posted by Lifthrasir

@ j.a.luna, that's the idea. Btw, I said I was taking care of France
@ JoC, still regarding France, do you still want to use the local language for the titles?
I'm asking to check it in the right way. Also, the question for Flemish settlements will be: should we use their French names or their Flemish names? For instance, Gand is French where Gent is Flemish. The region's name in French (nowadays French, not the old one) is "Flandre Orientale" (East Flanders) where it is "Oost Vlaanderen" in Flemish.

j.a.luna's work is very helpful irrespectively who's in charge of France

France: you'll have an initial and final voice on the titles, Lifth

This is a question about our approach to the names of the titles. We need to find a way between different approaches so that the players feel it historical, as I've described here.
I think up to the HRR the titles should be in French. This was the language mostly used. And we should not make too many versions I think. It was my approach eg for Poland and Hungary - they're in Latin, even though I could apply local languages.
Actually, I would also consider applying French to the English titles. But I'm not sure. However, the name of the crown of Britain should be in French, I suppose (or Latin?).
For Spanish province I think Spanish language should be applied (old version, if known), and for Italian - Latin. For the Balkans - Latin, and perhaps also for whole Africa.
(of course, I mean here only catholic titles, since orthodox and muslim are different).

**Eldgrimr** · April 03, 2017, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Lifthrasir

@ Eldgrimr, thanks for the confirmation. I had doubt since I've read that Finland was actually a real Swedish colony.

Yeah. While Norway, Sweden and Denmark were formed through national unification, Finland were a bunch of non-Nordic pagan tribes that were conquered by Sweden in the 12th century through a crusade.

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 03, 2017, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Eldgrimr

Yeah. While Norway, Sweden and Denmark were formed through national unification, Finland were a bunch of non-Nordic pagan tribes that were conquered by Sweden in the 12th century through a crusade.

Ok, but what title should duke of Finland hold? I think it may come from the Swedish times (for the orthodox it'll be a Ruthenian name). The name of the province it trickier, I think - it has to be the same for everybody, but in Swedish it would be Österland, I suppose, while in Ruthenian different (I actually don't know).

The current list for Skandinavia is:
Jarl í Borgarþingslǫg
Jarl í Gulaþingslǫg
Jarl í Vestrgautland
Jarl í Svíþjóð
Jarl í Smáland
Jarl í Gutland
Jarl í Skáney
Jarl í Sjáland
Jarl í Jótland

**Lifthrasir** · April 03, 2017, 03:48 AM

Well, if you want to use French, then it should be the old French (like for the Scandinavia with the old Norse). I don't think it makes a huge difference for the titles anyway, just slight adjustments such as f.e. and for king: "Roi" in modern French and "Roy" in old one

Regarding j.a.luna's work, I don't deny it. It is just more simple for me to find the old names in my native language, a bit like Eldgrimr for Scandinavia

Edit: I've made a mistake above

"Roy" is not from the Middle Ages but later. Below, the titles in old French.
- Emperor - Emperere
- King - Reis or Rois (depend on the regions)
- Duke - Duc
- Count - Cuens or Cons (depend on the regions)
- Baron - Baro (not sure it will be used - from "sacerbaro" meaning something like law clerk)

I also confirm the the old French (as it was spoken in Paris) was used by the English Nobility until (at least) mid-15th century. Prior to the 13th century, it was more a Normand dialect named the franco-normand but I don't think it is useful for the game

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 03, 2017, 04:29 AM

Ok, Lifth, so you can have a go and assign the names of the titles:
Roazhon
Angers
Rouen
Poitiers
Bordeaux
Toulouse
Clermont
Arles
Lyon
Nizza
Orleans
Troyes
Dijon
Paris
Reims
Gand

j.a.luna - could you also check the names of the provinces as they appear in the game? Then Lifth can assess if those names are still ok.

**Lifthrasir** · April 03, 2017, 06:29 AM

Yes, I think so too. Should be Jarl í Österland.

Regarding France, below the name of the regions with their respective titles:

Rennes (settlement's name to be confirmed) - Bretagne (Britany) - Duc de Bretagne (Duke of Britany)

Angers - Anjou - Cuens/Cons de Anjou (Count of Anjou)

Rouen - Normandie - Duc de Normandie (Duke of Normandy)

Poitiers - Aquitaine - Duc de Aquitaine (Duke of Aquitaine)

Bordeaux - Gascogne - Duc de Gascogne (Duke of Gascony)

Toulouse - Not sure yet, need more research - Cuens/Cons de Toulouse (Count of Toulouse)

Clermont - Auvergne - Cuens/Cons de Auvergne (Count of Auvergne) - Originally part of the Duchy of Aquitaine.

Arles - Provence - Cuens/Cons de Provence (Count of Provence) - Note that it was part of the Kingdom of Burgundy.

Lyon - Dauphiné de Viennois (County created in 1142) - Cuens/Cons de Albon-Viennois (Count of Albon-Viennois).

Nizza/Nice - Need more research. Originally part of the County of Provence

Orleans - Need more research. Originally part of the French Royal Domain.

Troyes - Need more research. Originally part of the County of Champagne - Cuens/Cons de Troyes (Count of Troyes).

Dijon - Bourgogne - Duc de Bourgogne (Duke of Burgundy) - do not confuse with the Kingdom of Burgundy

Paris - Need more research. Originally part of the French Royal Domain. The name "Ile de France" came later.

Reims (should be renamed Rheims) - Champagne - Cuens/Cons de Champagne (Count of Champagne) - Not really accurate. No Noble title found for Rheims actually, only references to the Archbishop. Need more research.

Gand - Flandre - Cuens/Cons de Flandre (Count of Flanders)

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 04, 2017, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lifthrasir

Yes, I think so too. Should be Jarl í Österland.

Regarding France, below the name of the regions with their respective titles:

Rennes (settlement's name to be confirmed) - Bretagne (Britany) - Duc de Bretagne (Duke of Britany)

Angers - Anjou - Cuens/Cons de Anjou (Count of Anjou)

Rouen - Normandie - Duc de Normandie (Duke of Normandy)

Poitiers - Aquitaine - Duc de Aquitaine (Duke of Aquitaine)

Bordeaux - Gascogne - Duc de Gascogne (Duke of Gascony)

Toulouse - Not sure yet, need more research - Cuens/Cons de Toulouse (Count of Toulouse)

Clermont - Auvergne - Cuens/Cons de Auvergne (Count of Auvergne) - Originally part of the Duchy of Aquitaine.

Arles - Provence - Cuens/Cons de Provence (Count of Provence) - Note that it was part of the Kingdom of Burgundy.

Lyon - Dauphiné de Viennois (County created in 1142) - Cuens/Cons de Albon-Viennois (Count of Albon-Viennois).

Nizza/Nice - Need more research. Originally part of the County of Provence

Orleans - Need more research. Originally part of the French Royal Domain.

Troyes - Need more research. Originally part of the County of Champagne - Cuens/Cons de Troyes (Count of Troyes).

Dijon - Bourgogne - Duc de Bourgogne (Duke of Burgundy) - do not confuse with the Kingdom of Burgundy

Paris - Need more research. Originally part of the French Royal Domain. The name "Ile de France" came later.

Reims (should be renamed Rheims) - Champagne - Cuens/Cons de Champagne (Count of Champagne) - Not really accurate. No Noble title found for Rheims actually, only references to the Archbishop. Need more research.

Gand - Flandre - Cuens/Cons de Flandre (Count of Flanders)

Lifth, I'd also like you writing what respective provinces are famous for, what would be reflected in the benefits, as described elsewhere, you know.

**j.a.luna** · April 03, 2017, 04:57 AM

ok, here i go...
Roazhon/Britanny
Angers/Anjou
Rouen/eastern Normandy
Poitiers/Poitou
Bordeaux/Aquitaine
Toulouse/Languedoc
Clermont/Auvergne
Arles/Provence
Lyon/Dauphiné
Nizza/Nice
Orleans/Orleanáis
Troyes/southern Champagne
Dijon/Burgundy
Paris/Ile-de-France
Reims/northern Champagne
Gand/Flanders

NOTE:For Spain and Iberian Peninsula i can help with tittles,names...i would like do more historical my country and i can be helpful, also my descriptions for settlements are very historical and with each characters for unique settlements

**Lifthrasir** · April 03, 2017, 04:59 AM

Fine with me

Thanks j.a.luna for your quick answer. I'll check the list and revert asap

**j.a.luna** · April 03, 2017, 07:56 AM

Now the list of settlements for ROMAN EMPIRE,SERBIA AND SOUTH HUNGARY

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DOWNLOAD HERE:
ROMAN EMPIRE,SERBIA AND SOUTH HUNGARY.7z

**j.a.luna** · April 03, 2017, 09:31 AM

Also the list of settlements for ANATOLIA(turks regions and armenians regions)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

DOWNLOAD HERE:
ANATOLIA.7z

Jurand if you need that help you in other regions here i am

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 03, 2017, 10:17 AM

j.a.luna - just finish off the whole map - only Mesopotamia and Persia are left! This will help me with the crown of the Turks - these are potentially vast areas.

**j.a.luna** · April 03, 2017, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow

j.a.luna - just finish off the whole map - only Mesopotamia and Persia are left! This will help me with the crown of the Turks - these are potentially vast areas.

Ok i will do also, all russians settlements are done?

**Jurand of Cracow** · April 03, 2017, 01:00 PM

@Lifth:
- Jarl í Österland -ok.
- what about the very name "Finland"?
- France - take your time, there's no need for rush. j.a.luna provided what I need for the Crowns, the PTs will wait.
- what should we do about the characters in the Old Norse alphabet? I’m afraid they’re not in ASCII…

@j.a.luna: yes, the Ruthenians and Cumans are done.

Ok, Guys, so the analytical part of the work on the Provincial Titles for 67 provinces are done on my part.
Have a look at the table and comment, if any. The explanations are given in the 2nd and 4th entry to this thread.

Click image for larger version.

Name: PT_for_67provinces.pdf
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Size: 282.3 KB
ID: 344402

Example how this will look in the EA file:

¬---------------
{dearmad_bruges} Herzog von Brabant
{dearmad_bruges_desc} In charge of land of industrious merchants, skilled artisans and laborious peasants.
{dearmad_bruges_effects_desc} Stupendous boost for trade income and for population growth: +1 Chivalry, +30% Trade, +2 Farming, as well as +1 Loyalty, +1 law, at the cost of: -5% tax, -1 personal security.

¬---------------
{dearmad_halych} Comes Rutheniae Rubrae
{dearmad_halych_desc} In charge of the rich province, vied by all neighbours. Granted fiefs around Halych.
{dearmad_halych_effects_desc} Good governor for growth and for mines' management: +10% trade, +20% mining, +1 Popularity, as well as +1 Loyalty, +1 law, at the price of: -5% tax, -1 personal security

¬---------------
{dearmad_thorn} Comes Gedanensis
{dearmad_thorn_desc} In charge of the rich port-city controlling the whole trade coming through Vistula river. Granted fiefs around Gdansk.
{dearmad_thorn_effects_desc}Stupendous boost for trade income: +30% trade, as well as +1 Loyalty, +1 law, at a price of: -5% tax, -1 personal security

67_PTs_Excel.7z

**Eldgrimr** · April 03, 2017, 02:58 PM

The old Norse name for Öster (East) was Austr, so I guess Austrland would be better than Österland.
During the medieval times, only the southern part of Finland was actually called Finland. We started calling the whole area Finland in the 15th century.

**j.a.luna** · April 03, 2017, 05:27 PM

ok Jurand and sship team, i just finished the whole map for list of settlements in PTF submod, now MESOPOTAMIA,PERSIA,GEORGIA AND SYRIA

The only problem was with Al-Wasit settlement, it doesnt have ancillary nor image,need make one new

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

DOWNLOAD HERE:
MESOPOTAMIA,PERSIA,GEORGIA AND SYRIA.7z

**Lifthrasir** · April 04, 2017, 01:26 PM

Like in the example you PMed me?
Ok, will try.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find the right "French" for the titles and regions. To keep things simple, there were 2 main languages in France during the 12th century: the language of oïl (spoken in half North) and the language of oc (spoken in half South). Both had numerous local versions. On top of that, there's the Old French (oïl language spoken from 9th-10th century to the 1st half of the 14th century) and the Middle French (oïl language spoken from the 2nd half of the 14th century to the Renaissance period). The changes from one to the other wasn't straight but took place slowly.

So, I'm focusing on the Old French, especially the one from Paris region. I think I've found some good sources but that might take a while to go throught them as ironically the old French is more difficult to understand for French people than for foreigners