Westworld (HBO series) (Season 2 Trailer)

[RubiconDecision]

The larger theme of Westworld is positing that the relatively anonymous shadow self that acts as a sociopath and psychopath is our real self. The person unhindered by morality who becomes essentially an Ubermensch in Westworld is above Good and Evil and godlike.

Westworld then becomes the natural extension of Internet pornography save it involves some of the androids suffering decades of trauma.

Who then is more human, the visitor to Westworld, or the victimized android who is gaining sentience?

It's very dark. In a way, Westworld is an anti-morality play in which God is a cruel deity who plays with us in our suffering and then we are free to reject our creator/tormentor.

AI is a colossal error, and one that we should be more fearful of than nuclear war.

[the_mango55]

Good episode, Delores and white hat dude might just turn out to be badasses.

Also apparently guests can have the crap kicked out of them, just not shot. Wonder what happens if they get captured? Do they just have to spend their expensive vacation in a cell? Or maybe that's an opportunity for some scripted prison break quest.

[Kyriakos]

I think we can agree now that the William scenes are on a different time than the Harris ones, can't we, El Lazo?

The same people in the control centre have discussed Harris (that guest gets to do what he wants) and when Dolores went off her story (and met William in the wilderness). So unless they are all hosts, they didn't age.

Dolores could have done that in a past as well, without William

Anyway, looks like some hosts are into the resurrecting business, as is Harris.

On a different matter: Hbo always overuses nudity. I don't think it adds anything.

[John Doe]

Also apparently guests can have the crap kicked out of them, just not shot. Wonder what happens if they get captured? Do they just have to spend their expensive vacation in a cell? Or maybe that's an opportunity for some scripted prison break quest.

When the guy was beat the second time, he smiled briefly when his partner refused to help him and left with Dolores, May be the beating is just a set up.

As for the difference in story/behaviour, I thought a new narrative was suppose to be implemented?

[torongill]

I think we can agree now that the William scenes are on a different time than the Harris ones, can't we, El Lazo?

Dolores could have done that in a past as well, without William

Anyway, looks like some hosts are into the resurrecting business, as is Harris.

On a different matter: Hbo always overuses nudity. I don't think it adds anything.

You've hooked so much with the different timelines that you've become blind to anything else. The very reason why Dolores ran into the William group was because she gained the strength to shoot her assailant after managing to see him as the Man in Black, who has been raping and murdering her for 30 years.

Also, you omit the possibility of multiple Lawrences, multiple guides to the maze.

No, they are probably not simultaneously going in their research, but they are so close in time that it reduces the probability of a 30+ years of separation to less than zero. The hosts are being picked up by cleaning crews, "repaired" and put back in the westworld fast, so the fact that Lawrence appears again doesn't really mean that much.

As a matter of fact, he could've been hiding his real identity and posed as the horse thief Lawrence, hiding the truth from his black captor precisely because this one is looking for the maze.

[PikeStance]

Good episode, Delores and white hat dude might just turn out to be badasses.

Also apparently guests can have the crap kicked out of them, just not shot. Wonder what happens if they get captured? Do they just have to spend their expensive vacation in a cell? Or maybe that's an opportunity for some scripted prison break quest.

This is is what happened in the original movie.

[Halie Satanus]

I thought the new town/city they went to was a level (or two) up where guests can take a beating, adding to the realism. The impression I had was hosts don't move from one place to another (outside their story) and (original) Lawrence wasn't part of the first level.

There's also the possibility there's more than one Lawrence. Since original Lawrence had a family and seemed a low level criminal. New Lawrence is a revolutionary with a completely different back story.

[the_mango55]

There's also the possibility there's more than one Lawrence. Since original Lawrence had a family and seemed a low level criminal. New Lawrence is a revolutionary with a completely different back story.

He wasn't a low level criminal. The warden guy at the prison called him the most wanted man in the territory. He could easily be the same person in both scenarios if they repaired and respawned him fast enough

[Halie Satanus]

He wasn't a low level criminal. The warden guy at the prison called him the most wanted man in the territory. He could easily be the same person in both scenarios if they repaired and respawned him fast enough

That's what I was getting at. Most wanted man in 'that territory,' a different territory and level lower than when we see him again. Maybe he was the same host..

[Påsan]

Why hosts can now hit guest is because they are so far out now. "The experience gets more intense" Think of it like any mmo, it becomes progressively more difficult the further you go from the starting town.

As for Lawrence, I dont have a clue. Its not "multiple Lawrences" or quick respawn I think, I think there's a point to it. Neither do I think MIB is William, although it fits with his character ark, the park is way too advanced to be 30 years earlier.

Orgy scene reminded me of Spartacus (rip) and HBO Rome but nudity and sex does not really do anything for me unless there's a point to it.

[RubiconDecision]

There is nothing erotic about the show in my opinion. The nudity, even the orgy scene is not titillating. The brain goes into overload with that level of stimulation and it does nothing to create arousal at some point.

Meanwhile the tender exchanges, even if fake and forced by Dolores recall similar exchanges from Ex Machina. I welcome more of those. That kind of sweetness and courtship is what most people are seeking through friendship and romance versus outright sensuality which is transitory. The former is meaningful and life-fulfilling.

I could see the multiple timelines William is MIB theory being somewhat accurate based upon the show's writers even admitting some of the fan theories are close to being accurate. It's entirely possible that the "raison d'être" of Westworld is not an adult theme park, but that everyone in Westworld, the "hosts" and the visitors are all an AI sentience project to see what would happen with human to AI interaction and how dangerous it could be. In fact, none of them could be corporal whatsoever. That's another theory.

But if androids are biological "flesh" and no longer machines as has been implied numerous times throughout, that is very dark and cheapens life. Flesh becomes as meaningless and devalued as a machine.

Some say that buried away, there may be trapped humans who serve as the copy from which the androids are spawned or cloned from, and that's the reason the MIB is desperately trying to get to the heart of the maze. The origin of their AI sentience is leaking from the human connection to the originals and the MIB is not a villain but an emancipator. That sounds very much like the Satanic concept incorporated into atheism during the Enlightenment. Lucifer as Prometheus but also as the Rebel freeing believers from God. Lucifer as a perverted form of Light Bringer.

Ultimately freeing human originals from which all of the androids are spawned/cloned from would be far more satisfying. It's plausible if these are corporeal that it's a military project to create a clone army as the ultimate form of soldier, one without a chance to defy orders and do the bidding of their creators to seize control.

You're likely to see a Spartacus revolt at some point.

Everyone on the show, including Anthony Hopkins could be a cloned android, so he's no deity of Westworld, but merely a master overseer and hence able to control all of the androids at will since he's connected to them. That's more plausible than he's a human controlling them as by what interface is he controlling them from?

[Kyriakos]

You've hooked so much with the different timelines that you've become blind to anything else. The very reason why Dolores ran into the William group was because she gained the strength to shoot her assailant after managing to see him as the Man in Black, who has been raping and murdering her for 30 years.

Also, you omit the possibility of multiple Lawrences, multiple guides to the maze.

No, they are probably not simultaneously going in their research, but they are so close in time that it reduces the probability of a 30+ years of separation to less than zero. The hosts are being picked up by cleaning crews, "repaired" and put back in the westworld fast, so the fact that Lawrence appears again doesn't really mean that much.

As a matter of fact, he could've been hiding his real identity and posed as the horse thief Lawrence, hiding the truth from his black captor precisely because this one is looking for the maze.

Well, it isn't certain, but i'd still prefer it if William=Harris

That said, the MIB could easily be someone else prior to Harris anyway, with Harris stepping into his role later. Also, couldn't it just be Rebus in some cases?

By the way, in this ep we saw Dolores remember opening her arm up. Which seems to be a far older version of the hosts, going by what was being said (in the past they were less human-like internally). This also could support an older timeline theory

[RubiconDecision]

I think the best way of proving that there are multiple timelines being depicted, is to watch for changes in the appearance of the characters and in things like the logo, and in the depiction of equipment, and so forth. It certainly explains the peculiar way Dolores disappears from Westworld's slot for her, and then has discussions with her controllers. Hunting for these things is like watching for the excellent set design changes in True Detective in the first season. There were lots of unspoken clues left as Easter eggs in that show. I'll bet the crew is doing that now in this show.

It's been posited that there is more than one Dolores and that Bernard wakes up one earlier Dolores while the other Dolores sleeps in Westworld. Then he puts her back in storage. Then the implication is that even when Dolores is in storage, her sentience is still evolving. It need not be evolving only when she is interacting with human beings (if there really are any human beings in Westworld whatsoever).

Since nothing is secret, even minute details like the boss visiting as a kid and details about the table are logged and registered, then Hopkins knows everything that is going on between Bernard and Dolores and is allowing that exchange to unfold, as well as anything secret that Dolores is holding back and so on. That would be akin to the very worst form of Big Brother where there is no privacy, and Hopkins could even get data from Dolores that she refrains from communicating so that he can anticipate every permutation of her though process.

And it seems that Dolores was perhaps Arnolds' favorite or a romantic attachment developed, and she's being punished by Anthony Hopkins. That's a monsterous form of torture for 30 years. If that's not Hell, I don't know what is. And Hopkins might be cruel enough that he allows some part of her mind to remember all of the abuse. Notice how they can switch to Analytical mode and that stores all mundane data, and is seperate from her consciousness. At some point there could be bleed over or even allowed and surpressed. That's as devious as Hannibal.

The Analytical mode might be able to recount every rape and murder that Dolores has witnessed or that has happened to her. It appears that way from this episode. I'm trying to be as vague as possible.

[Kyriakos]

^I was about to say the same thing; if there are those different timelines then Dolores very likely was placed later in a very miserable loop (father killed, being raped) as punishment. Similar for some other hosts partly accountable for what "nearly" happened (destruction of the park). And Harris told Hopkins that he (Harris) saved the park at that time, iirc

[RubiconDecision]

^I was about to say the same thing; if there are those different timelines then Dolores very likely was placed later in a very miserable loop (father killed, being raped) as punishment. Similar for some other hosts partly accountable for what "nearly" happened (destruction of the park). And Harris told Hopkins that he (Harris) saved the park at that time, iirc

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Well Dolores sees herself in the parade, right? And she talks to the seer/fortune teller and then she's talking to herself. It appears that she's become aware of her second and perhaps real human self or the earlier version of herself that was put in storage. Maybe that's who she whispers too after talking to Anthony Hopkins? It makes sense.

And William is there with his Brother-in-law for a business venture. And the android who destroys himself was loaded with a secret transmitter that was sending out data. Maybe whatever company that William works for end up coming doing a hostile takeover, so that's why the MIB is a special guest who is catered to and can afford to spend monumental amounts of time there? Williams company might be the one doing industrial espionage by stealing that intel via that host. He's their spy and programmed to self-destruct to hide the transmitter.

If there are two or more Dolores and they are working together, then one could scrub the other's analytics and save them to the other and hence HIDE her information from Hopkins. Whatever sentience then is saved and built upon in that retired unit and only residual traces are in the second Dolores unit.

[Kyriakos]

The music playing in the piano bars seems to be all rock hits (eg there was The Forest by The Cure, and some other ones, including i think Metallica), so if that is the case maybe one could examine if there are any 2000s pieces in the William timeline while there are (hypothetical) 80s pieces in the Harris one. Doubt it mattes much, but if it was easter-eggish in this sense it could help (unless someone messed that up ).

[torongill]

The Man in Black is a medical specialist, whose RL occupation is being the owner of a medical foundation. A very rich owner. William is the assistant VP of marketing? of an apparently financial institution.

The Man in Black is an old acquaintance of Dolores and Teddy, and her father (who used to be a Cannibal professor leader of a group gone savage before that storyline was removed). After the Man in Black arrives (for the umpteenth time) and murders Teddy and rapes and murders Dolores, he takes off in his search for the maze.

Afterwards Dolores's father finds out the photo and glitches, and is removed and replaced by the bartender who was murdered by milk. This new father is the one killed by the bandits, whom then Dolores manages to kill after imagining that the one threatening her is the Man in Black. That's when she finds William.

Even more important: Maive, the madam of Sweetwater, has glimpses of a previous story, in which she is a farm wife, killed by indians, but she also remembers seeing the Man in Black.

The Man in black also tells Robert he has always felt there was no REAL villain in Westworld, so he became the one. For more than 30 years.

From that, it's basically evident that William and the man in Black are not the same person, and even more so, William comes AFTER the Man in Black in the current loop.

[Kyriakos]

^Not meta enough. The whole show may be the data a host is presenting.

[RubiconDecision]

It's implied but never shown what the MIB does to Dolores in the barn. You're making a logical leap, but without seeing any indication of what transpired, that could be intentionally misleading by the writers.

[RedGuard]

You've hooked so much with the different timelines that you've become blind to anything else. The very reason why Dolores ran into the William group was because she gained the strength to shoot her assailant after managing to see him as the Man in Black, who has been raping and murdering her for 30 years.

Also, you omit the possibility of multiple Lawrences, multiple guides to the maze.

No, they are probably not simultaneously going in their research, but they are so close in time that it reduces the probability of a 30+ years of separation to less than zero. The hosts are being picked up by cleaning crews, "repaired" and put back in the westworld fast, so the fact that Lawrence appears again doesn't really mean that much.

As a matter of fact, he could've been hiding his real identity and posed as the horse thief Lawrence, hiding the truth from his black captor precisely because this one is looking for the maze.

Wouldn't it be great if this double timeline thing was an intentional red herring and in there on purpose to confuse people who look way too far into HBO shows? Its almost like its HBO's answer to the infinite Game of Thrones theories.

The music playing in the piano bars seems to be all rock hits (eg there was The Forest by The Cure, and some other ones, including i think Metallica), so if that is the case maybe one could examine if there are any 2000s pieces in the William timeline while there are (hypothetical) 80s pieces in the Harris one. Doubt it mattes much, but if it was easter-eggish in this sense it could help (unless someone messed that up ).

The music playing in the orgy scene is Something I can Never Have by Nine Inch Nails.

I still recall the taste of your tears
Echoing your voice just like the ringing in my ears
My favorite dreams of you still wash ashore
Scraping through my head 'till I don't want to sleep anymore
You make this all go away
You make this all go away
I'm down to just one thing, and I'm starting to scare myself
You make this all go away
You make this all go away
I just want something
I just want something I can never have
You always were the one to show me how
Back then I couldn't do the things that I can do now
This thing is slowly take me apart
Grey would be the color if I had a heart
Come on and tell me, you make this all go away
You make this all go away
I'm down to just one thing, and I'm starting to scare myself
You make this all go away
In this place it seems like such a shame
Though it all looks different now,
I know it's still the same
Everywhere I look you're all I see
Just a fading ing reminder of who I used to be
Come on tell me you make this all go away
You make this all go away
I'm down to just one thing, and I'm starting to scare myself
You make this all go away
You make it all go away
I just want something,
I just want something I can never have
I just want something I can never have


the lyrics would seem to imply a double timeline, but it also goes well with the waking up and remembering theme of the show. Also take into account that in the scene Dolores is scaring herself by "waking up" to what she is. Also may be a premonition of the love between Dolores and William ending badly. And just a general note that the robots in the park are like a "drug" to the visitors, since the song is about drug addiction.