Parthia weak

[Rostam_e_Iran]

They struggle vs campanion cav and the like. Just seem a bit week compared to other shock cavalry with specialities such as Wedge formation etc. Also due to their lack of infantry utilizing their bows will be almost impossible as they don't have Parthian shot and standing and shooting will not last long enough before enemy cav closes in.

Edited: Some of the comments were right in pointing out my immature and hasty outburst for which I feel embarrassed and regret. This is what I should have wrote. Peace.

[GRANTO]

Might aswell just remove them completely. They get destroyed by campanion cav and the like, because you know, apparently Parthia's equestrian heritage was a myth and the only reason they conquered a huge area was pure luck because their cavarly was so shockingly bad (see what I did there).

I sense favouritism towards western factions here, It's quite funny tbh, it's like 300 all over. But w/e real history will remain real. HF

Disappointed.

Calm down dude, take a deep breath.... its just been released ,
of course its gonna need balanced , no point spitting the dummy ,
lets have an indepth break down of where parthia have went wrong , so the guys can fix it ,

a mod of this magnitude takes a hell of a lot of work ,
they need constuctive feedback ...please

[popovic]

Don`t get me wrong mate, I personally haven`t yet even tried out the mod.

But aren`t you a bit over-reacting here? Even if there is some disbalance among units, you need to remember that this is basically an alpha-build. Not even beta.
Give the devs some time, I`m sure that in a couple of months, with player feedback, and shocking discrepancies will be balanced out.

[_Tyr_]

OMG, this is basically a pre-Alpha and battles only release and you are still butthurt on day one. Of course there's not everything perfectly balanced and fully fleshed out yet. The mod team did ing amazing, considering the huge load of work and research they had to do to give us this mod FOR FREE!!! and even with a campaign in the nearest future.
Sry man, your post is just disgusting to me. Show some respect for the modders or you better leave this mod alone.

[Rostam_e_Iran]

OMG, this is basically a pre-Alpha and battles only release and you are still butthurt on day one. Of course there's not everything perfectly balanced and fully fleshed out yet. The mod team did ing amazing, considering the huge load of work and research they had to do to give us this mod FOR FREE!!! and even with a campaign in the nearest future.
Sry man, your post is just disgusting to me. Show some respect for the modders or you better leave this mod alone.

I'm not into kissing ass, sorry. Sure they did an amazing job on the mod, that goes without saying. but when a faction which had a huge impact, historically, is overshadowed by other factions which lets be honest, were insignificant, yeah, I'm going to get annoyed.

[Charerg]

From what I see, Companions and Parthian Royal Cav are more or less equal, although Companions have a bit more defence and speed, they don't have a quiver of 16 arrows like their Parthian counterparts. Maybe the Parthians should be a bit more dominant in the cavalry department, but even as it is, they're largely even with Hellenic elite cav (in melee, with the bonus of all the Parthian cav having bows and a nice amount of arrows). Whether that is historical or not, I'll leave for others to consider.

The real problem with Parthia (balance wise) is that they don't have any infantry worthy of the name, and in this mod cavalry is relatively weak (as well as missile units). So basically you're not going to beat a pike-heavy army with pure cavalry, the elite infantry just don't break that easily, even if you surround them.

[Rostam_e_Iran]

From what I see, Companions and Parthian Royal Cav are more or less equal, although Companions have a bit more defence and speed, they don't have a quiver of 16 arrows like their Parthian counterparts. Maybe the Parthians should be a bit more dominant in the cavalry department, but even as it is, they're largely even with Hellenic elite cav (in melee, with the bonus of all the Parthian cav having bows and a nice amount of arrows). Whether that is historical or not, I'll leave for others to consider.

The real problem with Parthia (balance wise) is that they don't have any infantry worthy of the name, and in this mod cavalry is relatively weak (as well as missile units). So basically you're not going to beat a pike-heavy army with pure cavalry, the elite infantry just don't break that easily, even if you surround them.

I'm not asking they should stomp pike units, but when their finest cav which is capped at 3 can't even go toe to toe or is routed by some average shock cav then what? Shoot arrows? Ok, You might fire 1 or 2 arrows in before you either have to charge or move away and get charged in the rear. You can't use arrows efficiently because Ironically they didn't have the Parthian shot skill.
By the way it was the Sassanids which developed a hybrid unit which used the lance, bow and melee weapons. Pathians didn't, their cavalry was either shock, melee, or bow. And how do you explain their conquests of cities? You don't need evidence to work out they didn't only rely on cavalry.

Also where's the evidence the Seleucid used wedge formation?

[Petellius]

Why do you see it as getting overshadowed? They are still a huge faction in the campaign and have a huge impact on it, I don't understand your problem with Parthia, we looked into what they had historically and this is what we found. Maybe we should add some AoR infantry but otherwise I'm not sure what we could do to change it?

[RecKooo]

I am affraid that discussing any matter with this guy is just impossible now. A guy with "Iran" raging about underpowered Parthian roster? Are you kidding me? He took that misbalance personally thus will attack developers in any possible way now. hit the fan because you made his ancestors look weak and he didn't even bother to take the stage of development into consideration.

[Rostam_e_Iran]

I am affraid that discussing any matter with this guy is just impossible now. A guy with "Iran" raging about underpowered Parthian roster? Are you kidding me? He took that misbalance personally thus will attack developers in any possible way now. hit the fan because you made his ancestors look weak and he didn't even bother to take the stage of development into consideration.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but so what if I have "Iran" in my name? Seriously. I feel passionate about this faction, so what? I apologise for my outburst, but I don't see how you can play a faction like Parthia at this moment as their "elite" units are anything but elite.

[_Tyr_]

I am affraid that discussing any matter with this guy is just impossible now. A guy with "Iran" raging about underpowered Parthian roster? Are you kidding me? He took that misbalance personally thus will attack developers in any possible way now. hit the fan because you made his ancestors look weak and he didn't even bother to take the stage of development into consideration.

Exactly! As I said, he seems butthurt because of that and is missing the slightest bit of respect and/or understanding of the circumstances of the mod being still in development.

I'm not into kissing ass, sorry.

What has this to do with respectful and appropriate critizism and being patient because of the first early release of this mod? I'm pretty sure they will revisit a lot of factions and are going to make balance changes etc. in the future.

[RecKooo]

Well, you played it, your elite units got routed so you should be like "Well, this is just alpha so I tell the devs that Parthian elite cav feels kinda weak compared to for example Companion cav and with their pretty medicore infrantry they feel to me like being nowhere close to achieving things they historically did". Also why did I point out "Iran" in your name? Because Parthia was Iranian political and cultrural entity in ancient world. The Parthia is a historical region in Iran afaik. Also "Rostam" which is a part of your nick aswell is an Iranian mythology character.

[countingthedead]

This thread was created less than 5 hours after the alpha release of the mod. Is that a record for shortest time from an a mod's (alpha) release to a complaint of bias?

[Rostam_e_Iran]

Exactly! As I said, he seems butthurt because of that and is missing the slightest bit of respect and/or understanding of the circumstances of the mod being still in development.


What has this to do with respectful and appropriate critizism and being patient because of the first early release of this mod? I'm pretty sure they will revisit a lot of factions and are going to make balance changes etc. in the future.

You keep saying butthurt. If the representation of this faction was accurate and I just plain didn't like it then butthurt would be accurate. But it's the other way around, the faction isn't accurate and...yes I put my hand up, I over reacted and I'm truly sorry for that, I didn't mean disrespect to the creators, just a moment of anger....I hope for redemption and forgiveness, something almost impossible, it seems i've crossed a line in my madness.

Well, you played it, your elite units got routed so you should be like "Well, this is just alpha so I tell the devs that Parthian elite cav feels kinda weak compared to for example Companion cav and with their pretty medicore infrantry they feel to me like being nowhere close to achieving things they historically did". Also why did I point out "Iran" in your name? Because Parthia was Iranian political and cultrural entity in ancient world. The Parthia is a historical region in Iran afaik. Also "Rostam" which is a part of your nick aswell is an Iranian mythology character.

I could have been called "Wallace of Scotland" and still had the same passion for this faction. Iran or Scotland I don't see the relevance. Just because I have Iran in my name automatically prohibits me from complaining about an Iranian faction?

Anyway, again I apologize for my outburst.

[RecKooo]

I could have been called "Wallace of Scotland" and still had the same passion for this faction. Iran or Scotland I don't see the relevance. Just because I have Iran in my name automatically prohibits me from complaining about an Iranian faction?

Anyway, again I apologize for my outburst.

Cool you apologize. It is fine I guess. Still please, don't deny the link between your nickname and this outburst. You also admitted you are Persian on your forum profile which pretty much closes this debate about your personal approach towards this matter Anyway this is not important since you have admitted to your rant and kept it cool from now on, have fun with AE battles and get prepared for campagain

[_Tyr_]

Well, sorry for the "butthurt" - I simply outraged as well, when I read your post, because I think the guys from AE are doing an amazing job for us and we all should be grateful to have such dedicated people within the Total War community.
So simply keep critizism civilized, respectful, constructive and moderate, especially on the first day of the release. Afaik the modders very open for that and take well sourced critizism seriously.

[ABH2]

Parthia has generated quite a few complaints. It's unfortunate that this topic has been mainly focused on tone rather than content, but I think it can be salvaged.

Put simply - we're looking for feedback. Historical, and balance wise. Based on the research I did, there wasn't a lot to go on unit-wise. So in terms of number of units, not much more I can personally think of. I am very open to good source material that provides more ideas.

In terms of balance, it's tough to read Plutarch's Life of Crassus and not walk away impressed with the Parthians. They come off as pretty god damn tough and tore through the Roman cavalry (which wasn't exactly light) as if it was nothing. The length of their lances/armor should be a large advantage for the Cataphracts. If Parthia is weak (I haven't had a chance to play it myself - I don't get many chances to test battles), it probably ties back to cavalry and missile units overall. Parthian cavalry definitely should have Parthian shot as an ability.

The custom battle unit caps on (presumably) cataphracts should perhaps be increased. I will take a look at that.

By the way it was the Sassanids which developed a hybrid unit which used the lance, bow and melee weapons. Pathians didn't, their cavalry was either shock, melee, or bow. And how do you explain their conquests of cities? You don't need evidence to work out they didn't only rely on cavalry.

Curious as to the source of this. I don't claim to be an expert on the Parthians, but the bow for them seems to be ubiquitous and Plutarch describes Surena carrying a bow during battle. Bactrian cavalry in our time period is pictured on coins with bow, quiver/arrows and lances. So I'm pretty skeptical that it was developed only with the Sassanids. Reliefs of cataphracts in the 2nd century (pre-Sassanid) show cavalry with lances and quivers/bows.

If you have some good evidence here, I am definitely willing to reconsider our position on making their cavalry bow/lance armed.

[texoman81]

I recently researched Parthia for another mod, and you're already on the right track. I read several books on the Parthians, but the best one was Shadows in the Desert - Ancient Persia at War by Dr Kaveh Farrokh. The roster i came up with was largely based on that book. This mod is set latter after the Parni had absorbed the Parthava and founded the Arsacid Dynasty. The Parthian were indeed almost exclusively cavalry and they all used bows. Even their mele and shock cavalry also carried bows. Well at least initially, later on they developed more specialized cavalry and many did abandon the bow along with the nomadic lifestyle of their ancestors. Every member of the Parni tribe would have had a bow. The Parthians relied on subjects, mercenaries and allies for infantry. What little Parthian infantry they had performed very poorly. So this is what i would suggest:

initial rosters
Parthian horse archer (bow/sword)
Parthian skirmisher cavalry (javelins,sword) more rare but found a few mentioned. was more common with the other two tribes of the Dahae and the original Parthava
Parthian nobles (lance, bow, scale armor)
Parthian general (same as nobles but horse now also has some armor)
Parthian spearmen (spear,shield, short sword or axe) was rare and should have poor stats
Parthian foot archer (bow, sword or axe) also inferior to AOR Persian archers


reform (add the following units)
Parthian horse archer (late) (improved bow, sword) replaces early horse archer
Parthian cataphract archer (improved bow, sword)
Parthian cataphract (lance,sword)
Parthian noble cataphract/general (lance,sword) heavier armor and more skilled. more likely to have retained bow as well.
Parthohellenic infantry (sword, thureos shield, maybe javelins or spear) Perso-Hellenic may allow broader use


Persian AOR (source of most infantry and garrisons)
Persian skirmishers (javelins,pelte, spear or dagger)
Persian slinger (sling, pelte,dagger)
Persian archer (bow, short sword)
Persian archer-spearmen (bow,spear, pelte)
Sparbara (spear, retangular shield)
Takabara (axe, shield, maybe javelins)
Kardakes spearmen (spear,sword, round shield)

[Willhelm123]

You have to understand we're a historical mod. Most peoples conception of Parthia gets them confused and mixed up with other Iranian Empires such as the Achaemenid empire or the Sassanids. The reality is in 202BC Parthia was an area in north east Iran, and the Parthians were a horse based culture very much like the Scythians. They didn't have all these elite spear units or melee, or slingers, they rode horses, they pretty much only rode horses.

Of course they did expand into a very large empire and would have had much more than just cavalry at that point, and in the campaign that will be represented by the wide range of Area of Recruitment troops that will be available to them via conquest of the Iran region. Our error in AE is that we have forgot to include those on the custom battles roster, while most factions have the most likely AOR or Mercenary units included, some factions like Pergamon almost entirely made up of these units, for Parthia it is just an oversight.

Still, i think Parthia should begin with a cheap spearman unit but we've had disagreements about this in the past.

[texoman81]

Actually by this time the Parni and Parthava had already merged to create the Arsacid Dynasty. The Parni were just one of the three tribes of the Dahae so for mods in the usual 280-270 starting period they should be depicted as a Scythian tribe but not in AE. I have a completely separate starting roster of Dahae cavalry for the Parni in my roster, but thats for an earlier time period. The Parni adopted the name, language, religion, and culture of the Parthava after conquering them(250-241bc). The transformation from Scythian tribe to the new Persian empire wasn't over night, but it was quite rapid and they had changed drastically by the time this mod starts. It wasn't the usual gradual change but a conscious decision to change their identity and recreate the glory of the Persian Empire. The Parni would have had very few infantry, but the original Parthava did have some infantry. Their should be a Parthian spearmen from the start, but it should be inferior to the AOR Persian spearmen. AOR should still make up the majority of the infantry. Greek thureophroi (sometimes mixed race) become more common over time. The Greek were largely merchants within the Parthian empire but they were often relied on to supply infantry to help protect their financial interests.