Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)


    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...from_Pella.jpg

    Now if we can all agree that the people depicted here are not only African, but African-American, I'm intrigued by recently learning from Andrew Chugg (Alexander's Lovers 2006: pp 78-79) that the figures above, from left to right, most likely represent Hephaestion and Alexander the Great. This is the famous "Stag Hunt Mosaic" dated c. 300 BC, from Pella, perhaps the most important site of the ancient Macedonian kingdom.

    Chugg has this to say about it:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugg, 2006
    Pebble mosaic of a stag hunted by two men and a dog (Figure 3.8): This was found in ancient Pella, Macedonia. It is argued that the figure on the right is Alexander by virtue of the upsweep from the forehead and central parting of his hair (anastole) and the dating of the composition to the late 4th-century BC. The taller but coeval figure on the left wields a double-headed axe, which is an attribute of the god Hephaistos, thus he may be Hephaiston. However, this is still a somewhat tenuous basis for the attribution.
    So, what do you guys think? Do you think it's Alexander and his buddy Hephaiston? Or is it just two random Macedonian dudes? And if it's just two random Macedonian dudes, then why depict them as such? And in such a grand imposing style via mosaic? We see common soldiers in Macedonian art, in murals, mosaics, and statues, yet this particular mosaic seems a bit too grandiose. In my opinion, at the very least, it depicts mythological figures, and since Alexander was deified by this point, it would heavily indicate him as well.

    On a side note, what the hell happened to Greece?


  2. #2

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    The two men in the mosaic are not engaged in rampant male on male sexual intercourse, so I doubt it's Alexander and Hephaestion, as they are well known to have both been bi-lingual.

    As for what happened to Greece... Lots of invasions and the Ottomam Empire happened.

  3. #3
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayve View Post
    The two men in the mosaic are not engaged in rampant male on male sexual intercourse, so I doubt it's Alexander and Hephaestion, as they are well known to have both been bi-lingual.

    As for what happened to Greece... Lots of invasions and the Ottomam Empire happened.
    Today I learned that being bi-lingual makes you bi-sexual.

    How many ethnic Greeks today even share common genetic links to Turkic peoples, though? I thought most Greeks, those that didn't convert to Islam, formed insular Orthodox Christian communities and didn't marry outside of these groups during the Ottoman occupation. I could be wrong, but that was my presumption.

    In either case, just because they're not diddling each other in this mosaic doesn't mean they won't diddle each other afterwards, once the stag is killed and eaten.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Today I learned that being bi-lingual makes you bi-sexual.

    How many ethnic Greeks today even share common genetic links to Turkic peoples, though? I thought most Greeks, those that didn't convert to Islam, formed insular Orthodox Christian communities and didn't marry outside of these groups during the Ottoman occupation. I could be wrong, but that was my presumption.

    In either case, just because they're not diddling each other in this mosaic doesn't mean they won't diddle each other afterwards, once the stag is killed and eaten.
    I was obviously joking

    In all seriousness, if the mosaic was created AFTER the death of Alexander the Great, it seems probable to me that it is indeed Alexander the Great, though I couldn't be sure who the other person is. He was the hero of the whole ancient world afterall, especially in Macedonia, so if a mosaic-maker was going to go to the trouble of making a mosaic of a manly man hunting, he's probably going to have Alexander in mind. But these are just the opinions of a total non-expert, so they're worth little.

    As for modern Greeks, like most Europeans are today (and were back then too) they are probably a mix of a bunch of different ethnic groups, more so than they were back then. I mean, in Greece and Macedonia, since the days of Alexander, there have been all kinds of invasions, migrations and forced movement of populations. Some of those Byzantine Emperors were quite fond of transplanting huge numbers of citizens all around the empire to re-populate areas devastated by war/plague/whatever. So yeah, they're probably an entirely different people today than they were then. Just like everybody else in Europe.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    The Ottomans and genocide happened... Sometimes Jhizia though.

  6. #6
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    Actually, in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum, Sumskilz provided an excellent rundown of how most Mediterranean populations in Classical Antiquity were largely descended from the Neolithic farmers who displaced the original Mesolithic folk after sweeping in from Anatolia (making them more or less related to Near Eastern and Levantine people). Then, on top of this strata came the Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppe, including the proto-Greeks and proto-Latins, who settled in areas such as Greece and Italy spread their languages. They contributed a little to the gene pool, but the latter was still largely intact as far as the Mediterranean world goes. It would help to explain why Southern Europeans even to this day are a majority brown-haired and brown-eyed and olive-skinned, yet with a distinctly large minority having fair features, blondish and straight-up blond hair, red hair, green or blue or grey eyes, etc. These phenotypes obviously become way more prevalent the further north in Europe you travel, a present situation which more or less mirrors the world of Classical, Mid, and Late Antiquity.

    And THEN on top of all of that you have the Ottoman Turks finally Turkifying things a bit, here and there, in the Balkans.

    With that stuff out of the way, let's talk about the mosaic itself, which is the central focus of this thread. So what do you guys think? I personally think it is Alexander and Hephaestion. It most certainly fits the symbolism of some other Alexander artworks, statues and even another mosaic (the lion hunt one, also from Pella, only it depicts Alexander and Craterus).

  7. #7
    Cesco's Avatar Decanus
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Italia
    Posts
    595

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    I don't think Greek people ethnicity was heavily influenced by ottoman invasion...nor olive skinned people are that common in greece (or in mediterranean europe), but that's depend on what one means by "olive skinned people".

    Huic ab adulescentia bella intestina, caedes, rapinae, discordia civilis grata fuerunt ibique iuventutem suam exercuit

  8. #8
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    ^ Yeah, I know, I was making a joke. That's not what this thread is about, though. We're still talking about the mosaic, right? Right, guys?

    [Crickets.]

    In either case, I suppose these guys don't look that different (from the tomb of Agios Athanasios, 4th century BC):


  9. #9

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    Macedonians were not Greeks; though they were Hellenistic. They were in much closer proximity to the various Germanic/Skythian populations of the Black Sea, hence the fair features.

    The terms "white, black" or even "asian, european" are nearly useless in historical context, IMHO.

    Just look at the Lakedemonians and Spartans: they wore their hair in dreadlocks, shaved their upper lips (i.e kept neckbeards), were deeply tan from constant sun exposure; they had a society built on slavery, were avid pederasts, and had various seperate seasonal nude festivals for men and women with all ages partaking. They are so different from us- like most historical peoples, their mindset and culture would be considered totally alien if extant today. They were foreign and strange to other Greeks. Modern racial concepts don't apply to history.

  10. #10
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Alexander the Great and Hephaestion in a 4th-century BC mosaic (bunch of blonde-haired whities)

    ^ Well yeah, that's because biological racism didn't exist until the 19th century. In either case, this thread is about the mosaic, and if it depicts Alexander or not. Let's stay focused! I'm now regretting bringing up that whole jest in the OP in the first place. It is no the topic of this thread.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •