Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The County of Toulouse

[Filips Augustus]

I agree completely with your points Kjertesvein.

[Slytacular]

Alright, this is getting a little out of hand, and a lot of us are over thinking things.

1) The aim of this mod is to create a political situation of 1212 A.D. The game strictly progresses through three different eras of technology: 13th, 14th, 15th centuries.

2) This mod is meant to be historically correct to the technologies and sources that dates to the mod's time periods. Meaning that the designers for this mod are to interpret their medieval armies as close as they can with the available sources of historical information, but are free and encouraged to speculate the missing gaps in history. This does not qualify for historical accuracy because of the fact that we create "what if" scenarios. After 1212AD, the mod reflects an alternative universe.

3) Anything goofy, culturally different, or out of the current technology a unit is depicted, should be corrected. It is the very reason why we feature our work in the public forum, so that scholarly history nerds can properly critique our work and badger us to meet satisfactory results. While this mod should not claim to be historically accurate, it still provides a quality source of information for the next generation of history nerds to look at.

4) The purpose of this mod is to provide a different perspective of Medieval warfare that escapes the usual paradigm often displayed in modern media. It is extremely encouraged to developers to find and view the original sources of Medieval literature and art, as well as credible modern studies to interpret for themselves.


This means that if you can find some original art displaying Medieval Toulouse armies that are extravagantly different from what Fawn's units are displayed, then it should be a responsibility for Fawn to make those corrections to properly display the culture and technology depicted.

[You_Guess_Who]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Below is but a taste of what I can think of at the top of my head. Also a few clearly defined constructive suggestions going forward for those who may be interested.

I have full respect for the team and their work. I'm not pointing these things out in great extent to blast those who made them, that's not my intention. Also, I'm aware that the mod is a Work-In-Process, including Toulouse. I'm of the personal opinion that the mod is great as it is. This is merely to demonstrate that 'historically supported units' may not apply in all cases. That's ok too.

King and his knights

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The dismounted king of the Norwegian bodyguard in for the 1300s, and other units, use a polearm of the proportion common of the 16th, at least 15th century. The king, like many other generals also wears no helmet into battle, it works in Hollywood, but foolish in real life as King Henry experienced.
According to Laspina, this new visor used by the bodyguards is not based on historical sources, but rather a modified 'snow-plow' visor. I think I've found the inspiration, by modern artists. It looks cool in my opinion, but not historical. Same with the new breastplate. You don't see medieval breastplates which has the t-shirt length. Breastplates stops at the natural waist, not your hip. This is because the natural waist is the main articulation point of your torso area. When this is ignored, the result is a completely non-functional armour. You can't bend properly, roll or do anything practical if you wore it in real life.
While we are on Norway, do I need to mention that no one has provided any relevant sources for cavalry, ever, at all? None. Jousting tournament for Norwegian royalty, sure. Hardy ponies for transportation of armies, heck yeah. Any mention of groups of soldiers fighting on mounts? Even a slither of hope? Believe me when I say it that I've looked, but nope, nothing solid.

Don't use late polearm in the 1300s. Choose instead the "knife on stick", or a Dane Axe.
All kings should have helmets with visors.
The new steel breastplate need to be go, or be shorter and with a globos shape. Alternatively, apply a "textile" texture to give it the look of a brigandine with velvet/silk cover when it's used.
The new visor need to be modified to match the late 14th century visor it's based on. Either from the Rocca Albornoziana fresco in Spoleto, Italy. Alternatively, the extent survival which funnily enough looks like the bow of a ship. [2][3]
No cavalry for Norway, specially 13th century. Maybe late 14th century and 15th century if you're stretching it.

Grave armour

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The element which make up the body armour of the Guelp Men At Arms, and some other factions, use the archaeological remains of an early 14th century coats of plate from the mass grave of Visby. The use of inspiration is great, except it's without the outer textile base covering which holds the iron plates together. The iron plates themselves were actually not connected to each other, but simply overlap, allowing the person wearing it to both twist and bend in combat. If you tried to wear the thing as depicted in the mod, it would look totally out of place and simply collapse on the ground due to lacking a foundation.

This armour need to go or be fixed. According to the Swedish archaeologist, the outer layer was either textile or leather.

Pavise Partisanmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Many one-hand&shield units (almost ubiquitously Pavise Spearmen, but also a number of Mounted Sergeants) run around with a two handed polearm in one hand. The weapons are closely resembling an Ox Tongue or Partisan, the essential point is that the head is simply heavy for effectively handling it in one hand. It's comparable to seeing a viking with a shield in one hand and a massive Dane Axe in the other. The key advantage of a spear over a halberd-like weapon is the lesser mass, which means light weight, nimbleness and control. Light weigh allow you to control it effectively with one hand and a shield in the other. Most of the current Pavise Spearmen throws physics out the window, with one hand!

The polearms for Pavise Spearmen/Mounted Serjeants need to go.
Use spears. Alternatively more spear variety, both length and types.

Arrows, 10lb arrows, and gasoline arrows.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Heavy Shot ammo takes longer time to reload than Standard Shot, is it because the arrows are so heavy that it's physically demanding? No. Think about it, the same arrow with a harder arrow-head takes longer time to fire. It makes no sense and is completely arcadey. It also doesn't take into account the fact that penetration against plate is only relatively efficient at closer range and with a flat trajectory due to drag of the projectile (see Dr. Capwell, Richardson). There currently are no restriction on the range of AP arrows. To stand 2-300 m. away and penetrate knightly armour, in an arching motion, is reserved for Lord of the Rings. Additionally, do I need to mention Flaming arrows full of gasoline? Or that all archers, include peasants, have access to regular arrows, steel arrow heads and the ability to light their arrows on fire at the flip of a switch? Archers carried one sheaf of arrows. Additionally, looking through the inventories suggest that steel heads was a rarity.

Give most archers one type of arrows which reflect the context of their background.
No flaming arrows.
Include a range restriction on armour penetration arrows. Or, tweak stats in such a way that AP arrows are far less effective at max range.

There's always going to going to be exceptions when elements such as arrows comes into play, simply due to the proliferation of the technology, however. Arrows are currently way outside the norm.

As a reminder for those who unsure: As with everything I say, if you have conflicting evidence, we can always have a discussion about it.

~Wille

Oh, damn it Wille, Why didn't you told us earlier about this?

On arrows, I can tweak them at this very moment for under an hour.
Most archer in game already carry around 20-25 arrows. Flaming Arrows are already cut from mounted archers, and the reload time can be cranked up to simulate the fiddly arrow lighting. Heavy Shot range can be cut and accuracy/arc modified to simulate aimed shots instead of a volley. How far exactly in metre it should be for heavy shots?

Knight Capping or inferior horses for Norway are also something that are really quick to do - If Sly's willing.

Helmets and Armour, should've contacted Sly to create them properly. This might take days/week.

Now, equipment choice. Ah, this is where squabbling tend to take place. This depends on the faction dev willingness to change them, can be instant, can take forever. I can change the equipment for marine-borne units in a snap, because its my own domain.

[Heisenburrg]

One thing I would like to add to Sly´s list; That the absolute very first goal of this mod, above all other aims, is to make fun. It should be fun for the modders to make it and it should be fun for the players to play it. This is (besides the fact that CA obviously forgot to give us a new TW-Game in the medieval era and we have to fill this gap) imo the very first goal for this mod, so we should take that as serious as we can without breaking the fun, but not beyond.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Some new stuff for Tier 2 Toulouse. Working on updating the roster to replace the redundant Cathar units with something to add more variety to the roster.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Knight2708]

Looks very promising.

[Sver]

I gotta say I absolutely love the Cathar units, if for nothing else than the fact they're Toulouse's main gimmick - and unless/until unique edicts for religions are added, the only gimmick. Really miss them in the campaign right now.

I do have a small peeve with their naming though: Perfecti were specifically those Cathars who underwent Consolamentum and were bound by all the strict rules mentioned in the thread before, such as the radical non-violence principle and generally ascetic lifestyle. It would be more fitting to call them Credentes or Auditores, which were the common believers who postponed Consolamentum until on their deathbed. Also, that again is just personal opinion, but I think Early period Cathar units should be mainly militia-tier, while crusader-like units should only appear in later periods, as that would give a more historical impression of the 13th century Toulouse while also rewarding the player for surviving past its historical counterpart.

[banskie100]

We will be revamping the units for Toulouse. All fantasy units will be removed.