Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The County of Toulouse

**The_Fawn_Rescuer** · October 15, 2016, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kjertesvein

@dominogoc

I don't know. Since I'm colourblind it's hard to see what I'm looking at. Is that bronze or gold or a mix? Looks like a blueing [2] gone wrong.

lol, maybe it's a monster painted sallet or something. I don't know.

EDIT: According to Dr. Capwell, this german helmet might have been worn by a low level soldier, a serjeant, crossbowman or light horseman. Possibly forming an entire unit with the same helmet. Can you imagine? Scary.

~Wille

That sallet in particular was the direct inspiration for my designs!
Interesting. I knew that painting helmets was usually done by lower-class soldiers, but had never heard that entire units might have used the same design. The texturing is hard to do so I had planned on using them for officers, but perhaps I should use them for a sergeants unit.

Two questions:
1. What do you think of the designs? They are based on altar paintings and miniatures of demons from the 15th century.

2. Should I make an entire unit with guys who have these helmets, instead of using them just for the officers?

**Visarion** · October 15, 2016, 10:14 AM

Da Greenkins merchanarious boyz bigguns!?

)

**Kjertesvein** · October 15, 2016, 03:43 PM

Painted helmets is something we see mainly in the late 15th and 16th century of fairly low grade soldiery. With this helmet, as Capwell note, was probably a late 15th century helmet for light cavalry or mounted crossbowmen from the city of Nuremburgh. The back of the helmet had a big N on it. He talks about the helm in a lecture here, part of a bigger segment on different stages of decoration of plate armour. Source: youtu.be/COAIQPsgZWY?t=38m13s

1. I like the red and white "teeth" on the bevor and these helmets in general, they're pretty clear and I can easily understand [http://i.imgur.com/lyExwVb.jpg]. I like that. The rest of that helmet designs[http://i.imgur.com/yAObjma.jpg] are hard to see what exactly is going on and I'm unsure to be frank. Over all, I like that idea and thumbs up.

2. People are whining over it, that's ok, but it's just the virginity squeeks. Plow through the misconceptions and make a whole sergeant-esque unit. It was an actual thing. It's up to people to adjust to reality, not the other way around. The only problem as I see it is that the man wearing it has a paygrade way way way too high for this kind of helmet, at least judging by his station and armour.

I would suggest to make the unit armoured in overall lowgrade and mass-produced stuff (rusty and low quality), but still strongly influenced by the fashion of 15th century Renaissance flair and fluff, which is the period of the Monster Sallet, and Black Sallets in general. Here is an image from 1496 of sergeant-esque infantry and mounted crossbowmen. Firstly, what we see are tight pants [1]. We also see the same munition armour on head, hands and chest, simple munition grade stuff for everyeone. The captain is the exception, in full plate armour. Interestingly enough, the musicians at the officers side wear doublets as a single piece or with a plead coat with high shoulders on the outside of the doublets, which was fashionable at this point [2, 3 4]. As for ornament or defense, the Side swords or spada da lato. It was the earlier version of the rapier and was strapped at the hip of every soldier, to give it full swing of the Renaissance wind. Lastly, put a big A (-lbigensian) or T (-oulouse) at the back of the helmets, as a squad thing, which allowed the men to know who's friend and foe. This kind of fashion can be repeated for several city-state cultures as the latest of tiers, so to speak. Maybe these things are too much, but they're one awesome way of making awesome lower level troops for the late tier.

The same doublet can be used for any group of late tier pike men, as seen in the lower left corner here.

All that said and done, keep on rocking.

~Wille

**The_Fawn_Rescuer** · October 15, 2016, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kjertesvein

Painted helmets is something we see mainly in the late 15th and 16th century of fairly low grade soldiery. With this helmet, as Capwell note, was probably a late 15th century helmet for light cavalry or mounted crossbowmen from the city of Nuremburgh. The back of the helmet had a big N on it. He talks about the helm in a lecture here, part of a bigger segment on different stages of decoration of plate armour. Source: youtu.be/COAIQPsgZWY?t=38m13s

1. I like the red and white "teeth" on the bevor and these helmets in general, they're pretty clear and I can easily understand [http://i.imgur.com/lyExwVb.jpg]. I like that. The rest of that helmet designs[http://i.imgur.com/yAObjma.jpg] are hard to see what exactly is going on and I'm unsure to be frank. Over all, I like that idea and thumbs up.

2. People are whining over it, that's ok, but it's just the virginity squeeks. Plow through the misconceptions and make a whole sergeant-esque unit. It was an actual thing. It's up to people to adjust to reality, not the other way around. The only problem as I see it is that the man wearing it has a paygrade way way way too high for this kind of helmet, at least judging by his station and armour.

~Wille

Thanks for the lecture link. I knew that painted armor was much more common than most people think, but I had not seen Dr. Capwell's thoughts on it, very interesting. I also knew that it was a cheaper way to preserve armor that way and it was more of a low-class thing, though I must admit I wanted to use it for the officers because I thought it looked cool. You're right, however, it would be more appropriate on the lower-class soldiers.

I think it's just a bad angle on that other helmet. From the front I think it looks really cool:

**finix** · October 16, 2016, 01:52 AM

I do't like it, sorry it's too fantasy look. I think it's very easy to get carried away in use of textures and colors, and so begin to look less historical

**Visarion** · October 16, 2016, 06:45 AM

Try making it exactly like the one offered by Kjertersvein and show the whole unit from the front, not very close just enought to notice the painted helmets... but try not to make them too flashy still... a ballance... and not all, almost all would be better... yeah that most likely is the need for people to stand out of the crowd I guess. It should be represented if it happened but try finding the perfect ballance, units should be ballanced, not too flashy.

**Filips Augustus** · October 16, 2016, 06:59 AM

Personally I think it would be best if only the officers have it. Thing is that Toulouse would stand out too much from the other Western factions if their units are the only ones with this type of helmets. However I can also understand if you prefer to give these monster helmets to a full unit. Since Toulouse has units converted to Catharism, I would suggest that only the Cathar units would have these types of helmets. It makes them unique from their Catholic counterparts.

**The_Fawn_Rescuer** · October 16, 2016, 12:10 PM

So I moved the helmet designs to lower-class units, and I'm pretty happy with how it looks.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Also I changed the officers to better reflect their wealth and station.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

What do you think?

**You_Guess_Who** · October 16, 2016, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by The_Fawn_Rescuer

Also I changed the officers to better reflect their wealth and station.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

What do you think?

I don't really mind with the painted daemonic armor, but I can't stand the blue on the standard bearer's armor. Oversaturated, perhaps too much magenta, compare with the blue on his own surcoat/his own blue shield/the blue hose of the guy closest to the camera.

**The_Fawn_Rescuer** · October 16, 2016, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who

I don't really mind with the painted daemonic armor, but I can't stand the blue on the standard bearer's armor. Oversaturated, perhaps too much magenta, compare with the blue on his own surcoat/his own blue shield/the blue hose of the guy closest to the camera.

I very much respect your opinion on this, YGW, but this time I have to disagree. I am shooting for the blued look of steel when it is heated to a certain temperature, like this:

Same with the red armor. It isn't paint, but blueing.

**You_Guess_Who** · October 16, 2016, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by The_Fawn_Rescuer

I very much respect your opinion on this, YGW, but this time I have to disagree. I am shooting for the blued look of steel when it is heated to a certain temperature, like this:
Same with the red armor. It isn't paint, but blueing.

Oh! so it was deliberate for blueing? I thought that was paint. Well for that, I would say you should give some color gradation towards the ends of the plates (lighter in the center, more saturation towards the edges), so the blueness isn't too uniform.

**Kjertesvein** · October 17, 2016, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who

Oh! so it was deliberate for blueing? I thought that was paint. Well for that, I would say you should give some color gradation towards the ends of the plates (lighter in the center, more saturation towards the edges), so the blueness isn't too uniform.

I agree that it might be a tic too saturated, but the overall idea is not bad inregards to bluing or paint. Capwells armour is based on the fact that they found traces of paint on the alabaster. Not only gold paint on the gilded area, but black paint on the plated surfaces themselves[1]. Maybe my eye sight is bad, but I don't see that big of a difference between Fawns blue armour and Capwells black armour. I agree that it might be a tic too saturated, but it's overall ok. It might also be how images of Attila are, a bit goofy compared to in-game. We can see that with how images of water look very odd.

~Wille

**Kjertesvein** · October 16, 2016, 01:15 PM

It's bold, I like it. I can imagine it was pretty hard to wrap the image around the helmet, correct?

Oh, name the unit 'Monster Squad' to leave out any confusion.

~Wille