How to reduce unrest level?

[alpharomeo]

I don't mean the civil unrest level, which, I can see, get reduced with higher own faction culture. I mean the other unrest level, which AFAIK can come from buildings or enemy spies.


I have a city, Maranka (playing Baktria), with 45% unrest, and that's after I stacked 4 unrest-reducing retinues on the governor (who has no negative trait). With a full garrison, the city order level is barely at 80% (civil unrest has dropped to about 20% now). This has been a problem for the last 250 turns or so.


I have a level 10 spy there, a level 10 assassin, along with a "hate stranger" governor. I just can't expel the spy or spies after more than 200 turns. In other mods (like SS), after a few turns, your own spy will detect or expel the other spy. I haven't got a successful spy detection in this mod. On the other hand, my spies have been expelled or executed a few times.


I tried to let the city riot once, counting on the fact that a riot can sometimes kill characters in the city . But it didn't work. I just ended up paying dearly for the repairs.


What else is causing unrest and how do I fix it?






On a related note, why would a market cause unrest? More people are making money and having access to goods, the economy improves, so why the unrest? Ok, so you might have a couple more thieves, but many more people benefit from it as a whole. The net effect should be positive, not negative. I can understand the unrest for mines and farms (less people make profits from them), but I can't see why for markets.

[nvm]

You can't. It is caused by historical difficulties your faction had in holding that area, and I don't think it ever goes away. Your only hope is to max out public order, let the city rebel and enslave the population so you don't have to keep as much of a garrison, and destroy buildings that produce extra unrest/increase population growth. In the end the city should still cost you less to garrison it than the income it produces.

[Genghis Skahn]

The mines and farms unrest comes from slaves working them AFAIK.

Thievery and other unlawful stuff come from markets, or so it's been decided. I suppose that one does sound a bit confusing, perhaps another team member can help explain the decision better than me?

[QuintusSertorius]

Markets were the nexus for crime in the region; the bigger the market, the greater the centre of gravity for illicit activities. Same goes ports.

The gameplay justification is that construction shouldn't be an all-positive choice, that there is a meaningful downside to development as well. It's also intentional that the general level of unrest is higher, so that higher taxes can be dangerous and spark revolt. Holding a large empire across different cultures isn't supposed to be easy.

[Rad]

It is if you have lots of cash, guns and lawyers

[alpharomeo]

You can't. It is caused by historical difficulties your faction had in holding that area, and I don't think it ever goes away. Your only hope is to max out public order, let the city rebel and enslave the population so you don't have to keep as much of a garrison, and destroy buildings that produce extra unrest/increase population growth. In the end the city should still cost you less to garrison it than the income it produces.

Interesting solution. Thanks. I kept thinking there must be some damn good spy in there.

In any case, have anyone got a successful spy detection/execution?

[alpharomeo]

Markets were the nexus for crime in the region; the bigger the market, the greater the centre of gravity for illicit activities. Same goes ports.

The gameplay justification is that construction shouldn't be an all-positive choice, that there is a meaningful downside to development as well. It's also intentional that the general level of unrest is higher, so that higher taxes can be dangerous and spark revolt. Holding a large empire across different cultures isn't supposed to be easy.

Thanks for the response. Yes, I can see the reasoning. Shogun 2 has the similar model (modernization => unrest). But markets are not something new or disruptive back then. IMHO, crime is already modeled by corruption in the game (loss or property for the people and king). Although you can argue that the feeling of insecurity make people unhappy about the government.

I think what was bothering me here is that I couldn't figure out how to fix the problem. Now that I know unrest may be a constant for each area, there is no reason to pull my hair over it.

[Rad]

If it makes you feel any better, all my new conquests are far away from the capital and require a high influence/native ruler, a couple of spies and almost a full stack of troops for a long time, until the region calms down. I find it good roleplay

[Mouzafphaerre]

In any case, have anyone got a successful spy detection/execution?

I've had a few in my SPQR campaign. Past 200 turns now and the latest detection wasn't too many seasons ago.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks for the response. Yes, I can see the reasoning. Shogun 2 has the similar model (modernization => unrest). But markets are not something new or disruptive back then. IMHO, crime is already modeled by corruption in the game (loss or property for the people and king). Although you can argue that the feeling of insecurity make people unhappy about the government.

I think what was bothering me here is that I couldn't figure out how to fix the problem. Now that I know unrest may be a constant for each area, there is no reason to pull my hair over it.

Corruption models graft and bad behaviour by the operations of the state, such as it is. The penalty for markets and ports is measuring a different thing, disorder caused by private individuals like the crossroads colleges.

[ImperatorMaximus]

Everything can be more or less controlled either than enemy spies. When the unrest is getting clearly higher each turn it's certainly caused by an enemy spy infiltrated in your town. Most of the time this happens when you conquer an enemy town that had an enemy spy already there. You can have a clue that there is an enemy spy there when before you conquer the town you move your spy very close to that town and you can barely see anything that is in the town (that means they have a good spy in there). The only way to deal with him is moving a spy from your own to the town and then wait for an AI turn when their spy tries to raise unrest (it can happen sometimes only a few turns later so you need to wait sometimes). Your spy needs to be at least as good as theirs to have a good chance to caught him and it's not guaranteed that you'll kill him so you better also have a good assassin around. Is always a good idea to move a spy to a town you just conquered ^^

[alpharomeo]

You're right, the unrest level did increase recently in Maranka. And this region has been in Baktria's hand since the start. It's right next to Baktra too. So it can't be just from the fixed-value historical unrest.

Thing is I have a level 10 spy there for the last 200 turns and have never detected any spy. I just have the feeling the probability of detection is lower in this mod. And it's affecting the development of the story because it ties down my troops and I can't expand.

The only way I know now is just to wait for the spy to die out. Oddly enough, so far, all my spies and assassins have died when they turned 71. All my generals too, for that matter (except one, in his 60s).

@Quintus

What's a "crossroad college"?

[nvm]

From my experience it's never been difficult to flush an enemy spy if you actually tried it. But I don't know if that unrest is supposed to be fixed or fluctuate. Maybe the unrest reduction stuff on your governors was actually doing something and you changed them?

And if it halts your expansion anyway, seriously, just let it rebel then retake it. If there actually IS an enemy spy, he will leave when you besiege the city, and you will be able to see him do so with your own spies. Decreasing the city's population by enslaving the populace will improve your public order by letting you station less units for more garrison bonus. Then you just prevent the city from growing as big and don't worry about it anymore.

[QuintusSertorius]

Crossroads colleges were a Roman institution, a collective responsible for maintaining the shrines at places where roads met. Naturally, they became the centre of organised crime since they were positioned at strategic spots throughout the city.

[alpharomeo]

And if it halts your expansion anyway, seriously, just let it rebel then retake it. If there actually IS an enemy spy, he will leave when you besiege the city, and you will be able to see him do so with your own spies.

I have to try your technique tonight. Do you get building damage from the rebellion? Is the rebel army a full stack armed to the teeth?

When I played other mods, like SS, I remember there is an animation when a spy tries to infiltrate my city. I don't see it here, even if I have my spies in that city (I do see the animation for assassins attempting sabotage, most of the time). I remember I could see the spies/assassins when they are just standing next to my cities doing nothing. Now, I have to move my spy around and if they bump into the AI spy/assassin, then the latter appears on the map, as he moves away from that tile. Is this something specific to this mod?

[Chikiflin]

alpharomeo

another thing that helps a lot is creating allied governments (puppet states) and recruiting allied native governors which have the "client ruler" trait by default. The downside is that you won't be able to build everything you could have with your faction's government.

[nvm]

I have to try your technique tonight. Do you get building damage from the rebellion? Is the rebel army a full stack armed to the teeth?

When I played other mods, like SS, I remember there is an animation when a spy tries to infiltrate my city. I don't see it here, even if I have my spies in that city (I do see the animation for assassins attempting sabotage, most of the time). I remember I could see the spies/assassins when they are just standing next to my cities doing nothing. Now, I have to move my spy around and if they bump into the AI spy/assassin, then the latter appears on the map, as he moves away from that tile. Is this something specific to this mod?

Your buildings will get damaged, and some may even be destroyed and have to be rebuilt, but the profit from enslavement should cover that.

I think your spies do perfectly see enemy agents as well, but it's possible that spies just do not have an animation for infiltrating cities in the mod. Either way, I was playing Baktria before AI got a cap on assassins, and it did not take you long to learn of the existence of the enemy agents if you actually bothered to have spies in your every city - in fact, if you were at war with Seleukids, you would notice that some of your cities are surrounded by enemy assassins! But they wouldn't even bother to do anything as long as you had a spy in there because the chance of success would be too low. Stationing an agent in a city really helps a lot to prevent enemy agent actions. This is why if your city has lots of unrest and you can't flush an enemy spy out of there no matter how hard you try, it's probably caused by something else.

And yes, changing to an Allied Government and creating a general from there to govern the city also can help A TON to stabilize public order if you are desperate.

[Genghis Skahn]

Marakanda is notoriously hard to control as Baktria early on. IMO just garrison it properly, put a defensive spy in there, try to build public order increasing structures and wait for your culture there to slowly increase. Shouldn't take you too long before it's a loyal subject of yours.

[QuintusSertorius]

Marakanda is notoriously hard to control as Baktria early on. IMO just garrison it properly, put a defensive spy in there, try to build public order increasing structures and wait for your culture there to slowly increase. Shouldn't take you too long before it's a loyal subject of yours.

On culture, you might want to bite the bullet and destroy the Native Colony - it pulls the settlement away from Hellenistic Polities (and Eastern Tribal) towards Eastern Imperial.

[Genghis Skahn]

Not before recruiting some garrison troops there first, I recommend. Thankfully, the Baktrians are fairly rich.