Sons of the North - LateEra - SS6.4

[zender9]

I will send the cs in a minute.Also i highly recommend everyone to post ever battle pictures.

[zender9]

Wow wow wow.Looks like someone broke the rules.I found 400+1100 Norway units in ships which is in ports.After what happened to Scotland on first turn you should know better about this rule.I used movement points of both ships in the ports and units then put the units to port (not in ships) So you cannot use them this turn even if you want.Considering you are a newblood i didn't punish you harshly.But if anyone broke the same rule in this hotseat again i will disband his army.

[ArBo]

I know I (unwillingly) broke a rule here, but I checked and there's no one who could possibly have reached me anyway. It just seems kind of a shame that I've basically lost a whole turn for something that didn't influence the game whatsoever.

[Ramble12]

The problem is that it can be used to gain additional movement points which other player can not expect and get his troops in range (which wouldn't have happened as he thought other player would follow the rules). This also makes your army invincible, that is why sometimes it is allowed to hit ships in ports that have troops on them.

[StOuFf]

you can get +MP from having an army in ships in a port? i seem to not have known

[Ramble12]

I meant if you put your troops at Port, rather than in a ship in port, they will have 1 less movement point. Put general's traits aside

[ArBo]

The point is that I didn't get any of these bonuses. No one could have reached me anyway, and since I need to put additional units on the ship the movement thing is pretty useless as well.

[Mithridate]

Never mind actually, my memory is superhuman:
naval attack spam,

Is illegal, I ask for a replay as that ship carries a catapult
The odds for said battle is even worse than the one he posted

[themzr]

This shouldn't qualify as naval attack spam because its just two defeats. That's not spam

[Ramble12]

How do you define a Naval attack spam? It's the first time I see this.

I think we need the admin to clarify the situation. The first battle was not a sally out as it was a ship from port in Palanga, so it does not count as sallying out.
Besides, the naval attack spam is irrelevant if I understand this bug right. I knew you'd blockade the port if you saw I didn't recruit a ship in Riga, so I left it as it is, calling you out to blockade it for later to cut your naval superiority in the region. So I ask for replaying my first turn as well, but as it will probably be impossible, I ask for compensation.

[Mithridate]

How do you define a Naval attack spam? It's the first time I see this.

Sent a PM, but it's repeated naval defeats. Ships tends to get sunk even in defeat and with men remaining because the AR is a little wonky - not suited for naval battles. It's argued exploit, potentially bug though imo more accurately flawed mechanics.

We've had cases with stacks of war galleys being sunk by a lesser number of cogs by a chain of defeats.
Away until tomorrow, 14 hrs from now in case there is anything.

[Ramble12]

Every ship carries an ability to deal 'a critical hit', sinking an opposing ship in naval AR, so your whole fleet of war galleys could be defeated in one battle. It could take more reloads than killing 1 ship at a time, but it is still possible, so I refuse to replay until the admin decides otherwise.

[Ramble12]

Themzr is right too. Naval spam's goal is to win the enemy's fleet at the end. In our case I didn't win, only dealt some damage to your ships.

Rule about sallying out shouldn't be mentioned here as well, because this rule prevents you from taking your enemy's ability to sack the settlement away. You can't sack me with that fleet

If the admin asks me to replay, then there should also be a rule that forbidds salying out if the result is a draw, as this can also be treated as attack spam, when you can't win at the end, but can deal damage to your enemy's force.

[saleska2]

It seems there is some serious clarification required here so ill get this started and probably edit later with more information

The point is that I didn't get any of these bonuses. No one could have reached me anyway, and since I need to put additional units on the ship the movement thing is pretty useless as well.

You are actually giving a good example for why you got punished. I can put units in a ship aswell and then claim that "Nobody is in range" only to that way force out someone else in saying he may have something hidden or in range. You would basicly get rewarded for scouting bad. If you failed to scout properly and someone got away with hiding his units then your army would be smashed, but since its in ships in a port its invincible, unless you show litterly every tile in range you cant proof nobody is in range. Now even if there would be something in range. Rules are not optional or situational, they are permament.

Now to the more serious part.

Losing battles on purpose is a very tricky one especially with naval battles. This can very well be seen as exploit but thats a matter of perspective/opinion (creating an advantage out of a situation which is made not to be an advantage by repeating reloads until a certain result comes up can be seen as exploiting). Whether the turn must be reloaded or not can be based on this and is Zender his call.

Every ship carries an ability to deal 'a critical hit', sinking an opposing ship in naval AR, so your whole fleet of war galleys could be defeated in one battle. It could take more reloads than killing 1 ship at a time, but it is still possible, so I refuse to replay until the admin decides otherwise.

Am just pointing out this is not entirely true, there is not exactly a "critical hit". A tier 1 ship cant possible beat a tier 3 ship (can beat tier 2 with heroic victory and depending on the mod). I am not going too much into detail into this as it doesnt help any gameplay at all but the system is pretty damn flawed (my theory being that naval battles/land battles were designed by different developers.)

Themzr is right too. Naval spam's goal is to win the enemy's fleet at the end. In our case I didn't win, only dealt some damage to your ships.

Rule about sallying out shouldn't be mentioned here as well, because this rule prevents you from taking your enemy's ability to sack the settlement away. You can't sack me with that fleet

If the admin asks me to replay, then there should also be a rule that forbidds salying out if the result is a draw, as this can also be treated as attack spam, when you can't win at the end, but can deal damage to your enemy's force.

I dont know what this is about but its completely irrelevant. You ban the source not the action, "Naval attack spam" is classified under losing naval battles on purpose to gain an advantage which is by itself banned in 95% of the HotSeats. If losing naval battles is allowed than this is just as much allowed, banning such a single action would result in basicly forcing everyone to put all ships in stacks because multiple people will have their own definition of "Naval attack spam".

Imo naval AR is so crazily unbalanced that posting defeats of em should just be something that is always banned but its not my call and it doesnt affect me in the slightest ingame.

[zender9]

Losing naval battles are banned in most of other hotseats.It should be in this one too, but when we were choosing the rules, i didn't want to be the one who chooses them but you the players shall choose the rules.So i want you to vote to allow losing naval battles or doesn't allow it.If you guys say it must be banned then Ramble will replay his turn.

To Norway, no matter what you cannot put your units in the ships in the ports.Its forbidden.There can be anything can attack, spy, bribe your forces.Your forces may turn to rebel etc.

After the votes if the results is replay, he will replay without that naval battle and i will still punish Norway.

[Ramble12]

Well, you obviously know what I vote for. If I have to replay, it will be funny to get owned by 1/5 of Danish forces just because I planned everything in other fashion

[Mithridate]

I think the above two posts quite on point, I'd like to stress this however:

No exploits/bugs allowed. F.e. movement bug, merchant stack/fort, naval attack spam, agent stomping, surrounding armies/navies to deny retreat, armies on ships to go through enemy zone of control (brown tiles where armies should stop), spies spreading plague, abandoning settlements so you may sack them

This already is illegal, with me having played operating on stated rules.
Two defeats fought ( at 15:1 odds or worse I might add, in itself should tell you something... ) which I've still been shown pics of I might add.
In any case, vote to change rules if passed should apply starting on the beginning of the next turn.

As to the vote, I want to ban exploits, including this commonly agreed and already outlawed one.

Well, you obviously know what I vote for. If I have to replay, it will be funny to get owned by 1/5 of Danish forces just because I planned everything in other fashion

Surely you see that this is entirely true for me as well, thus moot.

[saleska2]

#losing naval battles banned.

That naval attack spam being banned on itself is just silly and I am glad there never came a situation in which people abused it to make their own definition of it.

I dont think we need much of a discussion, as much as it sucks for TO naval battles are completely imbalanced and so are these results.

[ArBo]

Denmark up! - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6...nh5alQ4QzNoeXM

[Ramble12]

Aye, I will replay