More Class War Declarations: ''The people are the problem, not the elite''

[Basil II the B.S]

Straight from German Federal President, Joachim Gauck:



Explains why the elite is only too eager to replace European people with much cheaper and complacent third world immigrants, who do not have particular demands of social mobility.

This follows an open an official declaration from intellectuals post Brexit:
It’s Time for the Elites to Rise Up Against the Ignorant Masses

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/28/...p-2016-brexit/
Which can be summed up as:

''How dare you commoners dislike a globalization that favours only a handful of individuals, you have nothing to earn from and even screw up with our plans?''

In my opinion, this is going to get ugly. The Western elite lives in a state of delusion similar to that of the French aristocracy pre-revolution and shows the same type of contempt for the masses.
The ideological divide however is that of pre WW2.
Now, every time the masses decide to move, it ends up in a bloodbath and it's hard to stop them. Do they really want to provoke that?

What do you guys think?

[HannibalExMachina]

yeah, how dare educated people be concerned that a bunch of demagoges are trying to grab power by appealing to the lowest common denominator. if the "people" actively undermine their own democracy by falling for some trump grade scaremongering, they are the problem.

"In my opinion, this is going to get ugly. The Western elite lives in a state of delusion similar to that of the French aristocracy pre-revolution and shows the same type of contempt for the masses.
The ideological divide however is that of pre WW2.
Now, every time the masses decide to move, it ends up in a bloodbath and it's hard to stop them. Do they really want to provoke that?"

scaremongering, throwing in some veiled insults. trying to blackmail those not of your opinion: "Thats a nice society you have there, would be a shame if somethingwere to happend to it."

division is created just like that, by creating a narrative of "them vs us", creating scapegoats, like "elites" and "intellectuals". where have i heard that before, expect in the deconstruction of any democracy ever?

there is no declaration of class warfare, just people who try to turn it into one to meet their own ends.

[swabian]

@HEM:

Those "demagogues" (if you mean the AfD) aren't trying to incite the masses to meet their own ends, thats conspiracy theory nonsense. Their goals are exactly what they declare. And if some violent mob tries to achieve ethnic cleansing where i only want more ristrictive immigration policy, than that's neither my responsibility nor is it my moral obligation to turn into another hysterical chicken in the "war against the right".

@Basil: as much as i'd appreciate it if the arrogant mug of power recieved an enthusiastic face massage, that's not gonna happen in Germany. Forget it.

[AqD]

yeah, how dare educated people be concerned that a bunch of demagoges are trying to grab power by appealing to the lowest common denominator. if the "people" actively undermine their own democracy by falling for some trump grade scaremongering, they are the problem.

they're pushed that far because those educated are ruining their own countries.

[Roboute Guilliman]

yeah, how dare educated people be concerned that a bunch of demagoges are trying to grab power by appealing to the lowest common denominator. if the "people" actively undermine their own democracy by falling for some trump grade scaremongering, they are the problem.

"In my opinion, this is going to get ugly. The Western elite lives in a state of delusion similar to that of the French aristocracy pre-revolution and shows the same type of contempt for the masses.
The ideological divide however is that of pre WW2.
Now, every time the masses decide to move, it ends up in a bloodbath and it's hard to stop them. Do they really want to provoke that?"

scaremongering, throwing in some veiled insults. trying to blackmail those not of your opinion: "Thats a nice society you have there, would be a shame if somethingwere to happend to it."

division is created just like that, by creating a narrative of "them vs us", creating scapegoats, like "elites" and "intellectuals". where have i heard that before, expect in the deconstruction of any democracy ever?

there is no declaration of class warfare, just people who try to turn it into one to meet their own ends.

2nd post nailed it.

[Basil II the B.S]

yeah, how dare educated people be concerned that a bunch of demagoges are trying to grab power by appealing to the lowest common denominator. if the "people" actively undermine their own democracy by falling for some trump grade scaremongering, they are the problem.

Virtue signalling. Pointing out problems is now ''appealing to the lowest common denominator'' as opposed to ignoring the problem because ''I live in a safe area anyway''.

Meanwhile the commoner gets killed. Lies and dishonesty.

[snuggans]

can a German speaker link to and verify the transcript of the interview? i'm googling for what he said but all the results are from crappy far-right sites like The Daily Stormer, The Gateway Pundit, BeforeItsNews, Gates of Vienna, TeaParty.org, etc

regardless though, if he did say anything regarding the masses, he was probably referring to these peoples:








and i, not speaking a word of German, am inclined to agree with the German president, because we're seeing the same phenomena on the other side of the pond

hell, the term "elite" could even be simply referring to educated folks, who are also fleeing from far-right parties as if they were cancer

the ForeignPolicy article was correct: "it’s about the sane vs. the mindlessly angry"

[Sir Adrian]

can a German speaker link to and verify the transcript of the interview? i'm googling for what he said but all the results are from crappy far-right sites like The Daily Stormer, The Gateway Pundit, BeforeItsNews, Gates of Vienna, TeaParty.org, etc

regardless though, if he did say anything regarding the masses, he was probably referring to these peoples

and i, not speaking a word of German, am inclined to agree with the German president, because we're seeing the same phenomena on the other side of the pond

hell, the term "elite" could even be simply referring to educated folks, who are also fleeing from far-right parties as if they were cancer

the ForeignPolicy article was correct: "it’s about the sane vs. the mindlessly angry"

Elite in Europe refers strictly to the rich and those in very high pay professions, the type in which you need to either be rich or very well connected to succeed. It does not mean well educated simply because everybody in Europe is well educated.

True but i wanted to provide some context for those who aren't familiar with german problems with the turkish minority. I do believe that the turks are themself responsible for the hostility against them.

German Turks are the reason why we refuse to accept Muslim immigrants. They have certain reputation here as well.

[Basil II the B.S]

Sheesh it's from zero hedge. Defamation, a common shill tactic. Disproved.

hell, the term "elite" could even be simply referring to educated folks, who are also fleeing from far-right parties as if they were cancer

the ForeignPolicy article was correct: "it’s about the sane vs. the mindlessly angry"

The sane are tax evaders, corrupt politicians, pedophile circles, traitors and their shills.

Absolutely worthless all of them. Once again, they should be careful what they wish for. If you remove the democratic vote, the next step is inevitably the guillotine.

[HannibalExMachina]

stop pushing a false narrative, your commoner is a stereotype, not a factual representation. those elites you are painting are mostly "commoners" themselves, they just dont agree with an overly simplified worldview. pointing out problems is not the issue, pretending we will be able to solve them with kneejerk reactions is. because these problems are complex, and solutions are not as straight forward as "build a wall to keep the evil foreigners out". most people dont like to be bothered with complex issues, thats why we have people like donald trump and micheal bay who turn out profit on that premise. and it works, doesnt it. so perhaps you want to get on that problem first? as long as people believe we can solve problems with actual of figurative explosions, we wont solve any of them.

oh, btw, the guillotine for class enemies happend after they introduced the democratic vote, and then some smart sociopaths turned a democratic movement into carefully orchestrated mob rule, so i think you got that backwards.

[Basil II the B.S]

scaremongering, throwing in some veiled insults. trying to blackmail those not of your opinion: "Thats a nice society you have there, would be a shame if somethingwere to happend to it."

It wasn't me who declared war on the lower classes. The politicians you support declare war and now you whine because people start fighting back?

division is created just like that, by creating a narrative of "them vs us", creating scapegoats, like "elites" and "intellectuals". where have i heard that before, expect in the deconstruction of any democracy ever?

there is no declaration of class warfare, just people who try to turn it into one to meet their own ends. and if you fall for that, well congrats, you are part of the problem.

And there goes the usual tactic, accuse me of ''insulting'' then 2 seconds later call me ''part of the problem''.
Hypocrisy.

Also the deconstruction of democracy has already been started by, once again, the very same elite you support, who are now losing electoral ground and have started rigging the democratic process, first via media control in a style that resebles fictionary dystopias or the Soviet Union and then just by plain vote rigging, see Austria and the US Democratic primaries.

stop pushing a false narrative, your commoner is a stereotype, not a factual representation. those elites you are painting are mostly "commoners" themselves, they just dont agree with an overly simplified worldview. pointing out problems is not the issue, pretending we will be able to solve them with kneejerk reactions is. because these problems are complex, and solutions are not as straight forward as "build a wall to keep the evil foreigners out". most people dont like to be bothered with complex issues, thats why we have people like donald trump and micheal bay who turn out profit on that premise. and it works, doesnt it. so perhaps you want to get on that problem first? as long as people believe we can solve problems with actual of figurative explosions, we wont solve any of them.

What false narrative? You have two representants of the elite openly declaring war on the people, and you have agreed with them.
The rest is nonsense. Appeal to complexity to refuse dealing with the problems and pursue the same policies that created them.

[HannibalExMachina]

if you consider "part of the problem" and insult, you agree the problem is indeed as described, and count yourself among those people. like the guy who shouts automatically: IT WASNT ME!

no one was declaring war on the people, your whole argument is based on hyperbole. and oc, the usual out of context to crate a false image:

from the interview:

Heute würde ich sagen, lass uns den Arbeitskittel anziehen. Ja, da gibt es etwas, was wir heilen müssen, was wir verbessern müssen, wo wir miteinander neu diskutieren müssen. Die Eliten sind gar nicht das Problem, die Bevölkerungen sind im Moment das Problem, dass wir stärker wieder mit denen das Gespräch suchen. Habt ihr wirklich Angst, dass ihr nicht mehr Polen oder Briten sein könnt? Ist es so, dass man euch eure nationale Identität wegnimmt?


Today i would say, lets put on the work coat. Yes, there is something we have to heal, to improve, something we have to dicuss anew. the elites are not the problem, at the moment the populations (people is less exact imo) are the problem, we have to seek conversation with them again. Are you really afraid that you will no longer be able/be allowed to be poles or britains? is your national identity taken away from you, is that the case?

he talks about the broader population being scared, and that politicians have to tackle that. that is the problem here, not the people being idiots. so, look at the groups trying to push that false narrative, its rather telling.



swabian, your soltution is to punch someone in the face, and you believe in the sincerity of the AfD. you dont get to claim ignorance and stand by when some convinient footsoldiers of the party you support start going ape.

[Basil II the B.S]

if you consider "part of the problem" and insult, you agree the problem is indeed as described, and count yourself among those people. like the guy who shouts automatically: IT WASNT ME!

''Part of the problem'' just follows the line of Gauck: the people are the problem. So I'm not agreeing with you, you are agreeing with him.

But if we really want to be subtile and admit that there's a problem then the cause is inevitably those who have power; it's not the people, it's not even the immigrants, it's the elite.

The powerless by definition can't be responsible for something he doesn't have control of.

[Basil II the B.S]

from the interview:

Heute würde ich sagen, lass uns den Arbeitskittel anziehen. Ja, da gibt es etwas, was wir heilen müssen, was wir verbessern müssen, wo wir miteinander neu diskutieren müssen. Die Eliten sind gar nicht das Problem, die Bevölkerungen sind im Moment das Problem, dass wir stärker wieder mit denen das Gespräch suchen. Habt ihr wirklich Angst, dass ihr nicht mehr Polen oder Briten sein könnt? Ist es so, dass man euch eure nationale Identität wegnimmt?


Today i would say, lets put on the work coat. Yes, there is something we have to heal, to improve, something we have to dicuss anew. the elites are not the problem, at the moment the populations (people is less exact imo) are the problem, we have to seek conversation with them again. Are you really afraid that you will no longer be able/be allowed to be poles or britains? is your national identity taken away from you, is that the case?

While I can definitely thank you for providing the translation, it doesn't really change anything for the sake of the thread.
He's blaming the people for not understanding the grand schemes, which is the usual contempt also shown in the other article I posted in the OP.
Zero taking responsibility for policy mistakes and misdirecting the blame.

[HannibalExMachina]

While I can definitely thank you for providing the translation, it doesn't really change anything for the sake of the thread.
He's blaming the people for not understanding the grand schemes, which is the usual contempt also shown in the other article I posted in the OP.
Zero taking responsibility for policy mistakes and misdirecting the blame.

they dont understand it, thats the point. that doesnt absolve him from blame oc, communicating with your electorate is vital, esp when complex issues are at stake. but assuming arrogance towards what should be a more or less educated public? id rather say its dangerously neglectful to assume that "people will get it", because thats clearly not the case.

taking no responsibility is clearly an issue, but the "people" have political power over who makes policy decisions, and they wont own up to it neither. electorates vote for whoever promises them treats, and then point fingers at the people they put in power. if you are part of the process, you dont get to stand aside and pretend its none of your buisness.

also, your OP says:More Class War Declarations. apart from being sensationalist clickbait, it is based on a source that succeded in manipulating the original source. there is no class warfare delcared, so there is none to talk about.

[Basil II the B.S]

they dont understand it, thats the point. that doesnt absolve him from blame oc, communicating with your electorate is vital, esp when complex issues are at stake. but assuming arrogance towards what should be a more or less educated public? id rather say its dangerously neglectful to assume that "people will get it", because thats clearly not the case.

They might not understand the grand schemes but they aren't really that stupid to ignore that globalization is being shoved down their throat by the elite and they gain absolutely nothing from it. It's just few individuals accumulanting wealth in tax havens, gambling in financial casinos, replacing European people with cheaper and less demanding foreigners and a variety of shady deals mixed with money laundering for drugs, terrorism and other criminal activities.

People see the results and clearly seek alternatives.

taking no responsibility is clearly an issue, but the "people" have political power over who makes policy decisions, and they wont own up to it neither. electorates vote for whoever promises them treats, and then point fingers at the people they put in power. if you are part of the process, you dont get to stand aside and pretend its none of your buisness.

Fingers can be pointed and believed only because the driver is leading us off a cliff. Otherwise noone would care.

also, your OP says:More Class War Declarations. apart from being sensationalist clickbait, it is based on a source that succeded in manipulating the original source. there is no class warfare delcared, so there is none to talk about.

Hm, the other article I posted clearly speaks of class war.
Politico and Deutsche Bank also commented that Brexit clearly reflects a diverging view between the elite and the lower classes of Europe, just like the upcoming US elections and the rise of anti-establishment Trump and Sanders reveal the same.
It's all over the place in Western Europe and North America but feel free to believe otherwise.

The irony is that clickbaits have been created by mainstream media, once again due to their numbers collapsing as their content incresingly becomes lies.

[swabian]

[/I][/I]he talks about the broader population being scared, and that politicians have to tackle that. that is the problem here, not the people being idiots. so, look at the groups trying to push that false narrative, its rather telling.

He, as the president, will of course choose his words carefully and glibly, but there are a lot of other people who denounce moderates like me as lowlifes and vermin and who lump us together with violent, uneducated extremists. I don't think that is what Gauck meant by talking with us oh so scared and misguided brats, but that is how the majority of the elected representatives talk to us and how they isntrumentalize the opinion of nice uncle Gauck (who would probably sound quite different when spoken to in private).

This is especially peculiar since these apostles of righteousness apparently think they speak for the majority of the people. Half the population noncommitedly agrees with the right wing on immigration policy, but are too scared to actually swim against the tide, but they begin to realise that they are considered part of "the problem" as well.

swabian, just get out, your soltution is to punch someone in the face, and you believe in the sincerity of the AfD. you dont get to claim ignorance and stand by when some convinient footsoldiers of the party you support start going ape.

Imagine, they actually mean what they say, shouldn't that be reason enough for you to hate them? I don't think it's necessary for you to depict them as some kind of sinister sith lords who plan to somehow become filthy rich after the Machtergreifung.

As for the "footsoldiers": I have no compassion for their victims whatsoever, but i consider their rampages as stupid, undisciplined and counterproductive. I cannot possibly be hold morally responsible just because i traval one meter in the same direction. You could much rather hold SPD, Linke and Grüne responsible for left-wing vandalism and violence.

And i don't consider enthusiastic face massages as solutions, but i imagine it would be entertaining to watch the arrogant smirk being whiped off of the face of power (which is unfortunately a hopeless utopia)

[snuggans]

there are a lot of other people who denounce moderates like me

ok, i'll play along, what makes one a moderate?

[swabian]

ok, i'll play along, what makes one a moderate?

I find you admitting to not knowing what extremism is not entertaining, but boring.

[athanaric]

[blah]
from the interview:

Heute würde ich sagen, lass uns den Arbeitskittel anziehen. Ja, da gibt es etwas, was wir heilen müssen, was wir verbessern müssen, wo wir miteinander neu diskutieren müssen. Die Eliten sind gar nicht das Problem, die Bevölkerungen sind im Moment das Problem, dass wir stärker wieder mit denen das Gespräch suchen. Habt ihr wirklich Angst, dass ihr nicht mehr Polen oder Briten sein könnt? Ist es so, dass man euch eure nationale Identität wegnimmt?


Today i would say, lets put on the work coat. Yes, there is something we have to heal, to improve, something we have to dicuss anew. the elites are not the problem, at the moment the populations (people is less exact imo) are the problem, we have to seek conversation with them again. Are you really afraid that you will no longer be able/be allowed to be poles or britains? is your national identity taken away from you, is that the case?

This demonstrates - again - just how detached from reality that guy is. I think he's actually well meaning (unlike Merkel), but he's just lost the thread. Relic from another time.

he talks about the broader population being scared, and that politicians have to tackle that. that is the problem here, not the people being idiots. so, look at the groups trying to push that false narrative, its rather telling.

It's good that he wants dialogue, but it's bad that he doesn't fully seem to grasp why the people are scared or angry. It's not some baseless, irrational fears you can "dispel", as some politicians would have us believe.

swabian, your soltution is to punch someone in the face, and you believe in the sincerity of the AfD. you dont get to claim ignorance and stand by when some convinient footsoldiers of the party you support start going ape.

Mind telling us what exactly is going to happen if they were to get free rein (yes, that's how it's spelled. Just in case someone tries to be a smartass) or take over? Or could it be you're just... scaremongering with vague hints and baseless historical comparisons?