A Visit to Cuba

[Tom Paine]

I'm not going to recount my holidays, so don't worry about that...

Rather, it looks like the US Congress may be considering reversing one of their biggest mistakes of the Cold War, their isolation of Cuba when it turned to them after Castro's 1959 seizure of power.

The largest delegation from the US Congress to visit Cuba since the 1959 revolution has arrived in Havana.

The 10 members of the bipartisan group favour the easing of US sanctions on Cuba and are seeking dialogue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6182347.stm

This can't really be considered bad news; a thawing of relations would be beneficial to everyone, the Cubans becuse they then don't have an embargo on them, and the Americans thanks to not having a hostile nation just off their shores... win win scenario. Of course, Bush doesn't seem to want to get behind the idea;

The Bush administration has also shown no signs of embracing a thaw as long as Cuba's communist system remains intact and political prisoners remain in jail, our correspondent adds.

Which would be a more concionable stance if he didn't actively support some regimes in that position... So what does this all mean? Is a thawing of relations a good idea, or even possible?

[VALIS]

[off topic content removed]

This would probably be a good move by the US.
If America had traded with cuba and allowed holidays to the country the cuban people would have seen the greatness of capitalism and would not have allowed castro to keep them is squalid conditions.
Putting an embargo on the country as just heightend the tension between the two countries.

When Castro dies (hopefully sooner rather than later) then i think the communist system may go balls up,and will be a futher example of the failure of communism throughtout the world.

[Tom Paine]

Cuba is not badly off under Castro, with one of the best healthcare systems in the world leading to seriously high life expectancy; good literacy (therefore good education); incredibly low unemployment; and so on. So yes, of course its going to benefit from capitalism... No, not really. What it wuold benefit fro would be somewhere external to trade with; and America would benefit from not having a nation which it made hostile off its coast.

[D-Rock]

This is from www.infoplease.com

Internet hosts: 1,529 (2003). Internet users: 120,000; note: private citizens are prohibited from buying computers or accessing the Internet without special authorization; foreigners may access the Internet in large hotels, but are subject to firewalls; some Cubans buy illegal passwords on the black market, or take advantage of public outlets to access limited email and the government-controlled "intranet" (2004),

inflation rate
Cuba 4.2%
US 3.5%

Life expectancy
Cuba 77.4
US 77.8

2002 telephones mainline 574,000: population 11,382,000

Sounds great to live there your money means less and you can not communicate with the outside world, maybe that is why the risk death to get to the US.

[D-Rock]

most data are from 2002 howevertelephone)

Sorry didn't mention that

[Tom Paine]

Ah, yes... that claim. The Cuban net migration rate is -1.57 migrant(s)/1,000 population (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/cu.html) and for a non-first world nation, which Cuba pretty much is (its not third world either, however), that's pretty low. You're also cutting the number of phone lines: 849,900; and you did nothing to dispell the figures and facts I provided. But hey, other than that...

[D-Rock]

Well I didn't really see any facts. Except a good healthcare system (life-expectancy still less a country with 300,000,000 people to take care of), but broad statements and a news article aren't facts.

Low literacy rate (kind of broad) the last documented literacy rate from Cuba was in 1973. And literacy rate is no the only characteristic of a good school system. Labor force: 4.6 million; note: state sector 78%, non-state sector 22% (2005 est.); agriculture 21.2%, industry 14.4%, (infoplease.com) It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work for the government.

In March and April 2003, Castro sent nearly 80 dissidents to prison with long sentences, prompting an international condemnation of Cuba's harsh crackdown on human rights.

US State Department report Found through www.firstgov.gov
Human rights in Cuba are violated in a myriad of domains. The Cuban people are unable to exercise fundamental rights, such as freedom of speech, assembly, and the right to association. Furthermore, no organizations or activities outside those controlled by the Cuban Government are allowed. Human rights monitoring groups are not welcomed in the island and are seen as a threat to Cuban sovereignty, making human rights violations difficult to document accurately. The Government of Cuba operates a very sophisticated and extensive network of surveillance over every part of the country and has a tight grip on civil society movements. In 2002 the Cuban Government rejected the Varela Project--a 2002-2003 referendum in which supporters submitted 11,000 signatures to call for economic and political reforms. It did so even though the Cuban constitution allows legislative proposals backed by at least 10,000 citizens to be submitted directly to the National Assembly. In October 2003, Project Varela organizers submitted a second petition to the National Assembly with an additional 14,000 signatures.

Despite the possibility of harassment and imprisonment, approximately 200 Cuban dissidents gathered on May 20, 2005 for a pro-democracy rally organized by the Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society in Cuba. Present at the rally were a number of dissident organizations which called for increased freedom of expression and for the release of all political prisoners, among other things. The attendees also heard a video message of support from President George W. Bush. While the Cuban authorities did not prevent the rally from taking place they did deny visas to a number of European diplomats and journalists covering this historic event. Subsequently, the regime has since arrested (and in some cases re-arrested) many of the organizers of this event for their planned participation in other demonstrations

Okay you got me I'll give them 900,000 or add our figures1,300,000, there is still eleven million people!

Maybe so many aren't coming to the US maybe because we are catching them before they get here. Or are detained before they leave.

I thought most people don't believe the CIA

[Tom Paine]

Low literacy rate? CIA Factbook says the literacy rate is about 97%, hardly low. Life expectancy would be expected to be lower, not higher; population size is irrelevant to the equation, food and availability of good medical care is, and in a nation under embargo one would expect those to be a lot worse, seemingly not however. 2005 estimated figures on the division of the workforce is: agriculture: 5.5%
industry: 26.1%
services: 68.4% (2005 est.)
And actually, you are disparaging working for the state on no basis whatsoever except your own prejudices. Furthermore their industrial growth rate is greater than that of the USA. So... hm.

And I might add that your immigration argument is flawed; they have a low leel of net migration, in the end.

Finally political freedoms have never concerned the American administration when they are abrogated by allies rather than enemies...

[Stalins Ghost]

I agree - Cuba gets far more bad press than it deserves. Generally speaking its a country on the up, and has been for a long time. And any country which has a bearded guy (i.e. Castro) doing the weather when hurricanes are on the way has to get applause!

That said, I can't ignore the political crimes being commited - particuarly for political dissidents. Then again the US doesn't come off totally clean in that respect. What about Leonard Peltier (who Clinton even considered giving clemancy) or Jeff Luers, both in the US, both with tenuous reasons for incredibly long and in my opinion unwarranted time periods

[Bwaho]

Cuba is not badly off under Castro

then how come thousands of cubans risk their lives trying to make it over to the US in rafts?

Ah, yes... that claim. The Cuban net migration rate is -1.57 migrant(s)/1,000 population

and Cuba is keeping track of the number of people who are escaping on rafts? does that really fall under migration?

I agree - Cuba gets far more bad press than it deserves

of course everything isn't black and white. They got good healthcare and literacy levels are nearly 100%

That said, I can't ignore the political crimes being commited - particuarly for political dissidents. Then again the US doesn't come off totally clean in that respect.

they are hypocrites, but then again so is the rest of the world...

[Tom Paine]

then how come thousands of cubans risk their lives trying to make it over to the US in rafts?

Because you are referring to inflted figures. Heck, its good, but I'm not seeing how "good" neccessarily means "on a par with their image of the United States"...

and Cuba is keeping track of the number of people who are escaping on rafts? does that really fall under migration?

Cuba and the US together are, yes...

[D-Rock]

first of all there is nothing wrong working for the government, but you missed the point. It is bad when the majority of the jobs are for the government.

[Tom Paine]

Not really. Remember that the majority of enterprises, all of healthcare, and so on, are government-run; free enterprise doesn't exist. Its a capitalist mindset to say that its bad if the government controls most things, and Cuba isn't run in a capitalist mindset.

[JP226]

Awww, Cuba is the darling child of the left. Talk to a few real cubans, assuming you've ever seen one, and you get a completely different view.

[Tom Paine]

And talk to a Cuban in Cuba rather than one who fled and you'll get a different story too; its like saying that someone who left American in disgust at Bush would give a fair appraisal of Bush's policies.

[Aristophanes]

And talk to a Cuban in Cuba rather than one who fled and you'll get a different story too; its like saying that someone who left American in disgust at Bush would give a fair appraisal of Bush's policies.

Seriously, what do you expect them to say when criticizing the state and its apparatus is considered a crime?

[aorz]

Seriously, what do you expect them to say when criticizing the state and its apparatus is considered a crime?

That's a good point.

It's not really reliable talking to somebody still living in Cuba because they might fear you to be working for Castro. The people fleeing obviously didn't like it enough that they would risk death to escape.

[JP226]

They don't leave as so much as their disgust with castro, rather the lack of opportunity in cuba

Not saying they like him, it's just even Americans that don't like Bush, won't leave the US beause of their opportunities here

[Tom Paine]

Actually I know some people who left because of, while not Bush, Reagan (I think...) and came to Britain instead. So... yea, they do.

[mrjesushat]

Actually I know some people who left because of, while not Bush, Reagan (I think...) and came to Britain instead. So... yea, they do.

Ozy, there's no winning this argument. You know, I'm sure, that the American media complex and the educational institutions have been co-opted for about forty + years in the effort to demonize and denigrate the Castro regime. So, when someone says "Cuba", a large percentage of Americans think, "Cuba=bad." Presenting the facts about this little nation that's remarkably successful in spite of being kept out of the U.S. economic loop, will not change any minds. Cuba bad. Castro bad.

Awww, Cuba is the darling child of the left. Talk to a few real cubans, assuming you've ever seen one, and you get a completely different view.

How nice. When was the last time a major Democratic politician in the U.S. stated their broad and unqualified support for Castro and Communist Cuba?

Please refrain from making absurd statements in an effort to associate those with whom you disagree, with politically extreme positions that they in no way support. Because you must realize that if the Left equates to Communism, then the Right equates to Nazism. And that's a jar of silly that people ought be bright enough not to open.

And watch "Looking for Fidel". Not because Castro's a great guy, but because Oliver Stone is right about only one thing---Cuba's not a Stalinist State. Or if it is, they do a great job hiding it. For every Cuban who flees the island to the U.S., there are thousands who love their country and believe in their Dictator.