The Russia and Ukraine thread

[ElvenKind]

Just went back and checked. Most of it seem to be you denying the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Nitpicking too much? Besides, the discussion was about Maidan, not about alleged invasion by Russia, so don't change direction of discussion.

[Garbarsardar]

Title changed to reflect reality of the the thread.

[Adar]

Nitpicking too much? Besides, the discussion was about Maidan, not about alleged invasion by Russia, so don't change direction of discussion.

The problem is that a general reference to such long threads is useless. It is literally like trying to find a unicorn without a horn in Mongolia, there are a lot of horses to check if and in the end all people with the relevant knowledge already know that it does not exist.

Also to help you in case the first sentence confused you. Here is the entire post where I bolded the part specifically about Maidan.

Just went back and checked. Most of it seem to be you denying the Russian invasion of Ukraine. So please try to be a bit more specific and preferably link to something where you convincingly explain how the US government managed to convince Yanukovich into deploying the Berkut against the Maidan in such a heavy handed manner that it cause the Afghani and general population to side with the Maidanists. To put it simply, the fact that we now have academic literature evaluating how the Western governments reacted to the surprise of Maidan (Europe and USA) is a good indicator that your conspiracy theories are wrong. The Western reaction was lukewarm at best and the only major achieved was how USA managed to convince the Maidanist to support a compromise leader with strong ties to Eastern Ukraine instead of their own radical Western oriented leaders.

[ElvenKind]

The problem is that a general reference to such long threads is useless. It is literally like trying to find a unicorn without a horn in Mongolia, there are a lot of horses to check if and in the end all people with the relevant knowledge already know that it does not exist.

Also to help you in case the first sentence confused you. Here is the entire post where I bolded the part specifically about Maidan.

When I wrote my "confused (as you say)" response to your post yesterday, there was no presence of this bolded part, which you had added after my response to your post.

USA is being caught red-handed in helping another regime change in another sovereign country, Syria, soooo, that tells us much about the US role in Ukraine`s coup and regime change.

I do not see the reason for me to go and find links for a member which has been late more than two years for Maidan discussion. Especially for someone who says that RT is not a source.

But, I`ll give him another clue as I did in my previous post to him: Victoria "F the EU" Nuland, and all other American politicians+CIA presence, support and guidance among/and for Maidan protesters/violent thugs.

[Heathen Hammer]

NO I mean the hundreds of thousands of people who marched, and fought, without which their would have been no freedom from Putin's pet. If this had been a palace coup, maybe your baseless claims would have been credible, but it was not, it was hundreds of thousands of people taking to the streets across a nation, and politicians scrambling to keep up, or capitalise.

Hundreds of thousands can't really represent the public opinion. Maidan was just a US-orchestrated palace coup, while using crowds of misguided working class as smokescreen (as history of "color revolution" coups shows), to make the whole show look more camera-friendly an "democratic". A few months later members of these crowds learned about their true role the hard way, when remains of Maidan demonstrators were violently dispersed by the band-new pro-American "democratic" regime.

[Costin_Razvan]

You know looking back at the topic of Ukraine it's pretty sad how badly the West lost it.

I mean really they thought they'd beat Putin...well out of the G7 leaders the only one still barely standing is Merkel and she's clinging to dear life.

I mean it says a LOT that in France every single one of the major party candidates are pro-Russians. You couldn't have failed harder even if you wanted to.

Seriously, I warned you over and over on this forum that it was a dumb idea picking a fight with Russia over Ukraine and yet so many people here laughed in my face and Russia was a pathetic and weak nation.

Not so damned weak right now is it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN_co8Idz3I

[Love Mountain]

Hundreds of thousands can't really represent the public opinion. Maidan was just a US-orchestrated palace coup, while using crowds of misguided working class as smokescreen (as history of "color revolution" coups shows), to make the whole show look more camera-friendly an "democratic". A few months later members of these crowds learned about their true role the hard way, when remains of Maidan demonstrators were violently dispersed by the band-new pro-American "democratic" regime.

Yeah you're gonna have to source at least half of that.

[swabian]

Hundreds of thousands can't really represent the public opinion. Maidan was just a US-orchestrated palace coup, while using crowds of misguided working class as smokescreen (as history of "color revolution" coups shows), to make the whole show look more camera-friendly an "democratic". A few months later members of these crowds learned about their true role the hard way, when remains of Maidan demonstrators were violently dispersed by the band-new pro-American "democratic" regime.

Sorry bro, that's a pile o' bull.

Equating that with ambitions to conquer the Baltic is silly. Eastern Europe is distinctly not Russian and has a history of great animosity. Annexing Eastern Europe brings no strategic value to Russia other than involving them in a war and creating a buffer of rubble between Berlin and Moscow. Resources are more and more centered around strategic resources and capital. What great treasure does Eastern Europe and the Baltic hold for Russia that would justify a state of war between NATO and it's armed forces? None.

They are beginning to use the same line of argument towards some Baltic countries (especially certain cities, where Russians are overwhelming majorities), everyone who payed a little attention is aware of that.

The Baltcis worthless for Russia? Lol what are you smoking? It's about as important as Krimea for them, if not more so.

[Love Mountain]

They are beginning to use the same line of argument towards some Baltic countries (especially certain cities, where Russians are overwhelming majorities), everyone who payed a little attention is aware of that.

There is a difference between rhetoric and action. Russia is a problem because we don't know what they will do. All we have at best is speculation, but the response needs to be calculated and measured. An over-reaction might trigger an over-reaction, unless you're okay with fighting a war in Eastern Europe?

The Baltcis worthless for Russia? Lol what are you smoking? It's about as important as Krimea for them, if not more so.

You're gonna have to show me why they are important to me then, because I don't see it.

[Heathen Hammer]

Yeah you're gonna have to source at least half of that.

Obama himself admitted that US was behind "euromaidan" and even if he didn't, once could just look at the people Poroshenko appointed on all the key positions.
Or are you asking for proof that "maidan" demonstrators were violently dispersed after the pro-Western regime was established?

[Love Mountain]

Obama himself admitted that US was behind "euromaidan" and even if he didn't, once could just look at the people Poroshenko appointed on all the key positions.
Or are you asking for proof that "maidan" demonstrators were violently dispersed after the pro-Western regime was established?

I don't understand what's wrong with providing a link of your findings. I can cite all of my sources if I'm asked.

[saamohod]

People in the outer world still interested in what's going on in my troubled country? Nice.

Obama himself admitted that US was behind "euromaidan" ........

Lol, what? Been watching too much RT lately?

[justicar5]

You sure you're not thinking of the Nazi Ukrainians?

Considering the US just electced an open Nazi an you supported that I think you are using that word to slur people who aren't corporatist racists Trump. Seriously why does space not work in this forum?

Hundreds of thousands can't really represent the public opinion. Maidan was just a US-orchestrated palace coup, while using crowds of misguided working class as smokescreen (as history of "color revolution" coups shows), to make the whole show look more camera-friendly an "democratic". A few months later members of these crowds learned about their true role the hard way, when remains of Maidan demonstrators were violently dispersed by the band-new pro-American "democratic" regime.

Source.Or simply more,lies,Heathen? Like when you supported Stalin, but said he was to soft and should,have killed tens of millions more?

[saamohod]

...

>You know looking back at the topic of Ukraine it's pretty sad how badly the West lost it.

The West is not a single entity. It's different actors with their own interests and agenda. Unlike Russia, which is a centralized autocratic state with just one opinion - the opinion of the despot and affiliated clans. If you have different opinion in Russia, you have only so many options: keep your mouth shut, emigrate or get imprisoned or killed.

>I mean it says a LOT that in France every single one of the major party candidates are pro-Russians. You couldn't have failed harder even if you wanted to.

I bet during the Nazi occupation of France every single one of the major party candidates were pro-Hitler. Got something to do with French mentality/culture probably. Why fight and risk your comfortable life if one can just submit to a powerful savage?

[ElvenKind]

I bet during the Nazi occupation of France every single one of the major party candidates were pro-Hitler. Got something to do with French mentality/culture probably. Why fight and risk your comfortable life if one can just submit to a powerful savage?

I`m under impression that you are saying France is under Russian occupation, so that is why every single one of the major party candidates are pro-Russians. Is that it?

[Costin_Razvan]

Unlike Russia, which is a centralized autocratic state with just one opinion - the opinion of the despot and affiliated clans. If you have different opinion in Russia, you have only so many options: keep your mouth shut, emigrate or get imprisoned or killed.

Funny, I know plenty of Russians who despise Putin who openly speak their mind.

You're under some delusion that Pussy Riot or Masha Gessen are representative of Russia.

[swabian]

There is a difference between rhetoric and action. Russia is a problem because we don't know what they will do. All we have at best is speculation, but the response needs to be calculated and measured. An over-reaction might trigger an over-reaction, unless you're okay with fighting a war in Eastern Europe?



You're gonna have to show me why they are important to me then, because I don't see it.

Asking for information is one thing, discussing it is another... nevermind.

NATO is not going to start the third world war over a few Baltic regions. The question is, whether we can effectively make it harder for Putin to preceed with his game. So it's hardly going to affect you personally.

For your info: http://www.fpri.org/article/2015/12/...baltic-states/

Welcome.

[Love Mountain]

That link is broken. Theres nothing there.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

[swabian]

That link is broken. Theres nothing there.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Hm, the link works fine for me. I post it again: http://www.fpri.org/article/2015/12/...baltic-states/

The page is the "Foreign Policy research Institute": http://www.fpri.org

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...arch_Institute

I'd copy the entire article, but i think there are issues with that.

[Love Mountain]

Hm, the link works fine for me. I post it again: http://www.fpri.org/article/2015/12/...baltic-states/

The page is the "Foreign Policy research Institute": http://www.fpri.org

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...arch_Institute

I'd copy the entire article, but i think there are issues with that.

It works now, I guess my computer was just spazzing out.

Within the Baltic States, the main factor that could both motivate and facilitate Russia’s policies of interventionism or aggression is a large, concentrated population of Russian ethnic minorities and Russian speakers that reside on Russia’s border. Estonia and Latvia have particularly large ethnic Russian minorities, with about 24 percent and 27 percent of the general population respectively, while Lithuania’s Russian population is just under 6 percent. Percentages of Russian speakers—a figure that includes other Baltic minorities such as the Polish, Ukrainians, and Belarusians—are much higher. Latvia’s Russian speakers make up nearly 34 percent of the population, Estonia’s approximately 30 percent, while Lithuania’s totals almost 8 percent.

The crux of the argument are the Russian minorities that feel "oppressed" in the Baltic. Reasonable argument, and one we've already discussed in the thread. They are a target for Russian propaganda and separatist action, threats best countered by strong institutions and communication. Not tanks.

As such, direct engagement and intensified dialogue between the primarily Russian-speaking minorities and majorities in each of the Baltic states appears as a necessary precondition for a successful tackling of such cases of instigations of separatism. Such an initiative requires commitment from majority and minority communities alike; while the former need to take into account the needs and perspectives of minority communities, minority representatives should in turn clearly dissociate themselves from separatist agendas. For these purposes, opportunities for institutional dialogue between the majorities and minorities should be facilitated. With particular regard to information policy, a common information space / forum where both minorities and majorities can express their views and needs appears welcome. Such an initiative would apply not only to Estonia and Latvia, with significant Russian and Russian-speaking minorities, but also to Lithuania, where the largest integration challenge after 1990 was and remains not the Russian but the Polish ethnic minority.

War over the Baltics will happen according to Article V if Russia invades, which I doubt they will. The natural resources argument is a silly one... the shale oil in Estonia is not even particularly significant. I don't expect Russia to start wars over the Arctic, yet those strategic resources are magnitudes bigger than the ones in Baltic. Russia already has access over the Baltic sea, not to mention the material and missiles they have in Kaliningrad to project power over the Baltic. All of these accusations get increasingly hyperbolic with each year. I mean to be fair Russia is arming itself so I can hardly blame the generals, but the responses on here, and by extension the media, have been ridiculous.

Placing troops and missiles in the Baltic doesn't protect them, it actually puts them in an even bigger threat, unless you want to put so much hardware on the Russian border that you'll cow them into inaction, but in that case I better see everyone raising their Defense budgets, amid a still feeble and recovering global economy. Re-establishing smart diplomacy and strong co-operative institutions is what will counter Russians, not tanks. Instead, everyone on this board advocates Far-right parties that seek to de-stabilize these international structures like NATO and EU. Then again, most far-right parties and their supporters are more concerned about Muslims and deteriorating Western "values" than reality. Which works out well for Russia.