Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Minnesinger
Above all I'd like to thank you for your great work, the templar, hospitaller and burgundian revamps are amongst my favorite by far. Concerning the new german units, however, there are some aesthetic choices that I'd like to question, and i'll be glad if you take my post into account.
Many, if not the majority, of the new german skins have furs with them, and I don't think it's relevant, for climate in Germanic states probably wasn't colder than in northern France or southern England. In my opinion the use of furs in the assets is barely relevant for the scandinavian factions, it is more suitable for the few units that historically evolved in mountainous or cold environments (like caucasians, rus ...) but it doesn't fit with the armies from western Europe. With their furs and their hairiness the new german units look like Cimbres or Teutons who dress in with some medieval elements, I hope you don't take this badly but it is a feeling that doesn't leave me when I see these units ...
I'm going to take fur from a historical point of view. I'm not going to speak on the style, shape or anything like that, but on the idea of fur in the middle ages. Fur served another important function which is entirely overlooked.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Being able to hunt and sell exotic fur (other than cheap squirrel) from a forest was a right reserved for the upper echelon of society, with laws to protect it. In Norway, the king reserved right to the fur trade and as a tax. If I remember correct, I think it was London which had 14th century laws which prohibited the plebians from even wearing higher quality fur. Basically, different social class' allowed to wear fur from exotic animals, such as spotted white fur from Finnmark (below). There're a lot of fur types out there that could be used in the mod to add variety to the current selection. White, brown, red-ish of different patterns and so forth would give it more life to the mod (I can agree to that), but the idea of fur for the (aspiring) upper class in itself, is feasible all over Europe. I think I showed Sly an image of an Italian with what looks like bear fur cloak over his back. There nothing wrong with fur, and as for keeping warm...
The common gear to stay warm in cold climates was sheep wool of different types. 12 (medieval girl, 15-17 year old, Uvdal stavchurch, Norway) Although it can go down to -40 Celsius (-70 effective with a hard wind), average temperatures in Scandinavia are about -10 C during winter. Give or take changes in the climate 700 years ago, a layer of inner wool, with hoses and mittens, and a long cloak is more than enough to keep your at a steady level. The danger is often times overheating, which causes you to sweat and you'll become wet. At this point you'll freeze more than you can ever imagine.
I use one of these when "snowscootering" across the plains. Love it.
Last edited by Kjertesvein; March 02, 2017 at 07:50 PM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
I have to agree with finix and Minnesänger – the new units are not really a step forwards (viking look; the "oh so cool" two handed swords; both too many horned helmets and Norman ones; some knights don't have helmets at all; too much plate armor for shoulder and arms etc.). It would have been better to give the people some preview screens before the new update was ready, so that people could have voiced their opinion in time. After testing both tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3, I would be happy with a reset to the previous version.
Last edited by Pinarius; March 02, 2017 at 04:17 AM.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Pinarius
I have to agree with finix and Minnesänger – the new units are not really a step forwards (viking look; the "oh so cool" two handed swords; both too many horned helmets and Norman ones; some knights don't have helmets at all; too much plate armor for shoulder and arms etc.). It would have been better to give the people some preview screens before the new update was ready, so that people could have voiced their opinion in time. After testing both tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3, I would be happy with a reset to the previous version.
Griaß di!
Well I am with you - the fur coat isn´t quite nessesery for the Austrian Knights
The two handed swordsmen should be a Tier II unit - not a Tier I unit - they two handed sword was used by the swiss army in the 14th century beneath their pikemen! But not in big numbers. I think there should be a Limitation for that unit, that you could only have one per army for example! One handed swordsmen were still the Standard here!
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Well the idea is that while fur is nice and necessary, it is still a very seasonal clothing. Its more ideal to represent a unit who wears something that qualifies yearly, or close to an ideal average, but still keeping a cultural variation. I don't think every powerful Austrian aristocrat will wear fur during the middle of Summer. Unlike Norway, which has a generally colder climate, it makes sense to have a certain amount of furs. However, even I don't over extend the amount of furs on the Norwegian units, and I mix variations of furs with capes for officers.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Slytacular
Well the idea is that while fur is nice and necessary, it is still a very seasonal clothing. Its more ideal to represent a unit who wears something that qualifies yearly, or close to an ideal average, but still keeping a cultural variation. I don't think every powerful Austrian aristocrat will wear fur during the middle of Summer. Unlike Norway, which has a generally colder climate, it makes sense to have a certain amount of furs. However, even I don't over extend the amount of furs on the Norwegian units, and I mix variations of furs with capes for officers.
Especially considering that wars were generally more likely to be fought in spring and summer than winter.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Knight2708
Especially considering that wars were generally more likely to be fought in spring and summer than winter.
This is probably the biggest thing for furs. Campaigns were seasonal things, and 'wintering' an army was definitely the standard. Beyond that, this is South Germany, not Northern Germany. Some of these things look out of place and denaturalize the faction. They look like they're going to join the Teutonic order on the Baltic Crusades, not form the most important part of the Habsburgs' German military contingent. Representing fringe military fashions is fine, making them the standard is just not doing history justice. Not to mention that late era Austria represents one of more important and storied dynasties in the history of Europe, the faction should represent that most of all.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Pinarius
Did that kind of Sallet even exist?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I've been wondering that too. I really liked the sallets in the old roster and while I actually like a lot of the changes introduced in this update, like the tier 1 knights with longswords, I'm really not a fan of many of the new sallets.
On another note I personally dont think that the tier 1 knights are too heavily armored. There are quite a few tier 1 knights with shoulder plates in other factions and some very basic plate armor for the lower arms, that not even every man in the unit has, is appropriate for a 13th century knight imho.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
The thing is that a part of these new tier 1 units actually look like from the 1100s and then they get armor for their arms like a knight from the early 1300s. The previous update had units that looked like 1212 to about 1330, so it was at least coherent in that regard - now it's a wild mix of older and more modern elements. And as I said before many knights don't even have helmets. The old, pretty perfect looking emperor was also changed without any good reason.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
@The_Fawn_Rescuer
My statement to the revamp;
1. I agree with Kjertesvein. There is nothing wrong with fur because it simply holds warm, so everyone used it (despite the different fur for different classes) and portraying soldiers with fur is no problem. Asthetically it´s a good opportunity to distinguish between the western factions (England, France and spanish factions) and the middle european/northern factions... and it´s a cool accessoire. Keep it, please! ^^
2. Personally with the horned helms I´m fine... Making completely new assets would be too much effort. Many of the helms already fitting german knights. You don´t have to forget that Teutonic knights were mostly german nobles (e.g. Hermann of Salza was a nobleman from Thuringia) and simply brought their style to the order. Besides of that, the decoration was completely depended from the customer´s wishes - Everything was possible.
3. Almost all alterations you did to the units are superb. Here some little comments:
- "Dienstleute" (high), "Burgmannen" (high) and "Aussöldner" (high) could be a more armored, they seem to be less armored then their early variants and appear like light units
- please rename "Dienstleute" to "Panzerreiter"... it would really fit more the cavalry.
- "Aussöldner" (late) are using way too much falchions! They were not so common in german lands... rather in Italy, France and England! Please give them swords and war-hammer!
- also "Aussöldner" is not really fitting for this kind of unit. Please rename them to "Lehensmaenner" - your knight units are really, really cool, just they are completely unbalanced! Tier 3 "Dismounted knights" are weaker then tier 1/2 and completely useless against late heavy infantry of other factions. Also tier 1 and 2 are no really challange for them. If they are meant to be an balanced equivalent for other factions knights they should be devastating in close combat (so strong offense and defense/armor stats) but they should keep their heavy weakness for missile damage, which other knight units don´t have
4. I would add a Chevalier-unit for the early and/or high period like England and France have to show clearly that greatswords were used in german lands but that common knightly weapons are used to the same or, more likely, a greater extend in these periods. The greatsword knights I would rename to "Reichsritter", the Chevalier-units "Ritter zu Fuß". Another option would be to add Teutonic-Order-Knights (see above)... would be the equivalent of the "Monjes militares"-units.
Last edited by Heisenburrg; March 03, 2017 at 09:35 AM.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Heisenburrg
- "Dienstleute" (high), "Burgmannen" (high) and "Aussöldner" (high) could be a more armored, they seem to be less armored then their early variants and appear like light units
Agreed. I think the tier 2 versions of these units look more like 13th century units, while the tier 1 units look more like 12th century units. The tier 2 armor is almost completely mail and gambeson, while comparable units from other factions have mostly brigandines and early plate armor.
- please rename "Dienstleute" to "Panzerreiter"... it would really fit more the cavalry.
- also "Aussöldner" is not really fitting for this kind of unit. Please rename them to "Lehensmaenner" [/QUOTE]
Agreed, just to offer some more alternatives some other possible names could be Gefolgsleute, Kriegsknechte or Waffenknechte.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
About the sallet, it is based off of a statue from Ribe, Norway.
@Knight, 13th century still used helmets based off of Norman style conicals and other previous 12th century helmets. 13th century in Western Europe sees the rise of the cervelierre/skull cap, but it doesn't dismiss the continued use of the previous century helms. It is only around 14th century that armour changes tremendously different.
This knightly helmet, along with the new sallets did exist and are based on the ~900 images I've dug up regarding armour in Scandinavia. The region was part of a wider Germanic culture in terms of trade, ergo, the style of armour. The most important armour producing centers at the time was the Low Countries, Northern Italy and Austria, and so the style of European armour would diverge depending on the major producers and other context. I've jet to see a single armet in my pictures for instance (see link below). That doesn't mean an armet never found it's way to Northern Germany, but it suggest to us that it was atypical. Other styles of armour was more prevalent, and so feel free to browse away til your hearts content. http://imgur.com/a/irD6D
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Slytacular
About the sallet, it is based off of a statue from Ribe, Norway.
Thank you and Kjertesvein for letting me know. I think it would be better to give this particular helmet (which seems to be absent from German artifacts and depictions in art) to the three Scandinavian factions instead of the HRE (where it is currently very over represented).
Originally Posted by The_Fawn_Rescuer
Wow. I leave for a couple of days and this thread has exploded. Thanks for everyone's interest and feedback. To address some things mentioned here:
1. I agree with removing the firs from the southern German factions.
From ALL HRE factions, please. They look like a very surplus fashion accessory. Actually useful fur for cold weather would look different.
It will help distinguish their look more from the north-germans, which is something that I want to do down the line.
Germans in the North shouldn't look like a Barbarian stereotype either. Please stop copy pasting stuff from the old TW Attila. The long beards & mustaches have to go, too.
3. Dienstleute (latin: ministeriales) were an important group from which German lords could rely on for military service, and are unique to medieval germany. It would be foolish to not use it.
Call them Ministerialen. It's a loan word that surely sounds better than the lame "Dienstleute".
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
I'm not a fan of the general "nordic touch" of this revamp. It looks like a cliché. The Holy Roman Empire was for the most part central European and even for the Scandinavian countries these pseudo vikings with their furs or plaid coats and the massive - sometimes even braided - beards or long mustaches look out of place. The November update gave us almost perfect units, why change that? The same amount of working time could have been used for the unfinished factions instead.
Last edited by Pinarius; March 04, 2017 at 08:24 AM.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Wow. I leave for a couple of days and this thread has exploded. Thanks for everyone's interest and feedback. To address some things mentioned here:
1. I agree with removing the firs from the southern German factions. It will help distinguish their look more from the north-germans, which is something that I want to do down the line. However, I'd like to point out that even the southern parts of Austria are still further north than most of France. Believe it or not, Austria get cold, too. I'm sure Archilles can testify to that. Firs were not only pretty commonly worn by nobility (even in 'warm' places like France and Spain) as a status symbol, but also because, you know...it gets cold. I think some of you are also over-exaggerating the presence of the firs anyway, it's not like every dude has them, the probability is like 1 in 5 per unit, and some of them wear cloaks instead. It adds variety and regional distinctiveness to the units.
2. The longswords argument is stupid, and I can tell that most of you have no idea what you are talking about concerning this matter. The swords they use in the Tier 1 unit are Oakeshott type XIIa's, and there is plenty of evidence - to the point that it's really beyond question - for their use in the 13th century, and some strong evidence for their use even earlier than that. The longswords some of you are talking about are completely different. See my earlier post about this, or look it up.
3. Dienstleute (latin: ministeriales) were an important group from which German lords could rely on for military service, and are unique to medieval germany. It would be foolish to not use it.
4. Colors: Looking at the units now, I think I definitely went a little too rigid on the color-coordination in the knightly units, that will need to be fixed and varied a bit more. Thank you for the coats of arms suggestions.
5. Horns. They ARE historical, for ALL of Germany, including *gasp* Austria! See my earlier post(s) about this. Personally, I would LOVE to have more helmet crests, but I think there are much more pressing needs for creating new models elsewhere in the mod, and the horns work just fine. If someone wants to make them, have at it. I'll put them in the units. On knightly units in Tier 1 they only appear on officers, and on the bodyguard unit (which is essentially a unit of 'officers,' reflecting the Heerschild or familia/household of the Duke or Emperor, which would have been composed of his best men as well as his staff and general officers - that is, the medieval equivalents of such people - seneschal, chamberlain, captains, the galfonier). In Tier 2 they are slightly more common among knights, this being the century where you find by far the most historical examples for crests and horned helms, and in Tier 3 they taper off significantly. Dismounted units do not have them at all (except officers).
In the immortal words of Forrest Gump: "That's all I have to say about that"
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by The_Fawn_Rescuer
Wow. I leave for a couple of days and this thread has exploded. Thanks for everyone's interest and feedback. To address some things mentioned here:
1. I agree with removing the firs from the southern German factions. It will help distinguish their look more from the north-germans, which is something that I want to do down the line. However, I'd like to point out that even the southern parts of Austria are still further north than most of France. Believe it or not, Austria get cold, too. I'm sure Archilles can testify to that. Firs were not only pretty commonly worn by nobility (even in 'warm' places like France and Spain) as a status symbol, but also because, you know...it gets cold. I think some of you are also over-exaggerating the presence of the firs anyway, it's not like every dude has them, the probability is like 1 in 5 per unit, and some of them wear cloaks instead. It adds variety and regional distinctiveness to the units.
2. The longswords argument is stupid, and I can tell that most of you have no idea what you are talking about concerning this matter. The swords they use in the Tier 1 unit are Oakeshott type XIIa's, and there is plenty of evidence - to the point that it's really beyond question - for their use in the 13th century, and some strong evidence for their use even earlier than that. The longswords some of you are talking about are completely different. See my earlier post about this, or look it up.
3. Dienstleute (latin: ministeriales) were an important group from which German lords could rely on for military service, and are unique to medieval germany. It would be foolish to not use it.
4. Colors: Looking at the units now, I think I definitely went a little too rigid on the color-coordination in the knightly units, that will need to be fixed and varied a bit more. Thank you for the coats of arms suggestions.
5. Horns. They ARE historical, for ALL of Germany, including *gasp* Austria! See my earlier post(s) about this. Personally, I would LOVE to have more helmet crests, but I think there are much more pressing needs for creating new models elsewhere in the mod, and the horns work just fine. If someone wants to make them, have at it. I'll put them in the units. On knightly units in Tier 1 they only appear on officers, and on the bodyguard unit (which is essentially a unit of 'officers,' reflecting the Heerschild or familia/household of the Duke or Emperor, which would have been composed of his best men as well as his staff and general officers - that is, the medieval equivalents of such people - seneschal, chamberlain, captains, the galfonier). In Tier 2 they are slightly more common among knights, this being the century where you find by far the most historical examples for crests and horned helms, and in Tier 3 they taper off significantly. Dismounted units do not have them at all (except officers).
In the immortal words of Forrest Gump: "That's all I have to say about that"
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
I am not a historian and cannot compete on that level of debate in regards to outfits and the like, so my comments will be purely aesthetic.
I love the knightly units, and much of what is brought to the HRE factions. My only problem is the Burgmann units, which i would have let alone. While i think the furs are a fine inclusion to the units, i really don't like the capes on the Burgmann and none knightly units, with the heavy increase of bearded units, it looks rather like Germanic barbarian groups. I would prefer if those units were styled back to how they were prior to the update.
Otherwise, with the exception of the heavy use of long beards i really like the knightly units addition!
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Okay here is my comprehensive list of thoughts and suggestions on the current HRE roster. I may have stated some of these at an earlier point in the thread already, but I thought it would be easier to respond to if I collect them all in a single post.
To start of with the knights: Personally I really like the tier 1 knights with two handed swords. I think that a lot of evidence has been provided to show that while these swords may not have been the most common weapon, they were definitely common enough to include them in the roster and they add a really cool and unique element to the HRE’s tier 1 roster.
The tier 2 knights seem spot on as far I can tell, really like their armor.
What I do think needs more work are the tier 3 knights. While the current plate armor in the game looks great, it doesn’t really look like the famous German gothic armor and imho it will be impossible to create an authentic looking German roster without them having their signature gothic armor.
Another issue I have that relates to the entire tier 3 roster and not only the knights are the helmets. The old roster had a ton of great looking sallets that I feel represented the typical German Schaller very well. While I like the addition of some more exotic sallet variants, I feel that they are kind of over-represented in the current roster. There are also generally too many Italian helmets, while the occasional barbuta is fine, there was obviously trade and exchange between Italy and Germany, there are definitely way too many Armets on the tier 3 knights. Armets really only became widespread in Germany during the 16th century, with the 15th century gothic armor being worn almost exclusively with a Schaller. I’m also not a fan of the kettle helmets that some of the tier 3 knights have. They were mostly used by infantry units and I have never in my life seen a set of Gothic armor with a kettle helmet. Overall with the prevalence of Italian helmets and more exotic sallets, the “normal” Schaller has become the exception not the rule, which I think does not really represent the German units as authentically as possible. In fact I just checked in game and a unit of 60 mounted Ritter had 19 Armets and only 7 “normal” Schaller.
In terms of infantry, as has been said already Aussöldner is not really an appropriate name. Kriegsknechte, Waffenknechte or Gefolgsleute would all probably be more appropriate names.
Also while I appreciate the attempt to make the German units more distinct, I certainly haven’t seen sufficient evidence to justify the current prevalence of hurlbats, From everything I’ve seen about the medieval German military, I can say with some certainty that they were nowhere near as common at the time. I think it would be better to add them to some special units, but they should not be a piece of standard equipment.
It is also noticeable that the tier 2 Aussöldner and Burgmannen look more like tier 1 units. In fact I would suggest removing the armor that they have on their shoulders and legs and making them the tier 1 versions, as they look much cooler and more unique than the current tier 1 version that looks a bit generic and very similar to the French and English tier 1 sergeants. And creating a new version for tier 2 that has brigandine and early plate armor like the English tier 2 sergeants and French tier 2 hommes d’armes. I really like the new tier 3 model and with more appropriate helmets they will look pretty much perfect imho.
Another unit that needs more work imho are the Landsknechte. Currently they look too much like generic heavy pikemen. While I am aware that a lot of their distinctive style only devloped during the 16th century, I still think that it is possible to create a unique look for them while staying within the 15th century.
Another general note about the HRE’s roster is that it should really have a highly diverse mix of colors and heraldry. The HRE was an extremely diverse and complex entity and unlike France, Spain or Burgundy never really developed a centralized and uniform army and administration and I think their units should reflect that.
And one final thing is that I really think that there should be more urban units in the roster. The Free Imperial cities and other major towns were a highly influential part of the Empire and often were a source of man power. Another thing that probably also applies to factions like France and Burgundy is that the urban middle and upper classes would commonly form form quite professional and very well equipped militias that were a lot more formidable than the half-trained levies that militias are quite commonly associated with.
And finally I just want to say that none of this is intended to attack anyone on the dev team or to belittle the effort that they dedicated to this faction nor is the long list of suggestions supposed to imply that I take your hard and awesome work for granted. I am aware that a lot of this will probably not be implemented, but I still want to add all the feedback and constructive criticism I can, because like everyone here I want this mod to be as good as it can be.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Knight2708
Also while I appreciate the attempt to make the German units more distinct, I certainly haven’t seen sufficient evidence to justify the current prevalence of hurlbats, From everything I’ve seen about the medieval German military, I can say with some certainty that they were nowhere near as common at the time. I think it would be better to add them to some special units, but they should not be a piece of standard equipment.
It's a field I'd like to see in-depth research into to be honest, but I've stumbled on several sources which can't be overlooked. It started with a source I stumbled over by accident.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
1390 from Bremen, north of Germany, summing up what armour and weapons the inhabitants of the rural area around the city were obliged to own at all times.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"En jewelik lantman in de zulven Vylande schal hebben to ewigen tyden ene troyen, eyen yseren hud, en par wapenhanschen, enen schilt, ene worpbarden unde enen peck van zesteyn voten unde kortere nicht, by broke ener mark, ..."
"Every landman in this same Vyland (the municipal rural area around Bremen) shall have at all times a troyen (protective padded coat), an iron hat, a pair of gauntlets, a shield, a throwing axe and a pike of sixteen feet and not shorter, on pain of paying one mark, .... "
Our second source is thanks to fellow TWCenter member Jagdpanzer, who found the second source.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
"the arms of the citizens of Groningen in 1425
De wapenen waren zwaarden, lange messen, rustings, jentzen, baselers, beslagene kolven, harnassen, bogen, armborden en werpbaarden (bijlen)".
The weapons themselves would probably have been prevalent and known in their respective societies, because we see these weapons mentioned in several city laws. Our search for weapons requirements basically comes down to the city of Groningenand Vyland, the hinterland around Bremen. Also, the cities of Groningen, Ommenand Kampen had laws which goes into depth when these weapons were misused in society. The fact that they were part of law codes indicates that the weapons were of common usage in those areas mentioned and that they are valid weapons for war.
These cities were closely connected to the Hanseatic League, so that element is possible to exploit in terms of our naming convention and coats of arms.
I shared my knowledge with Roland Warzecha, who is familiar with the local museums of arms and armour in Hamburg, but he didn't have a lot to add on the matter. The reason why this is an overlooked topic might be because it's not part of the knightly accoutrements of war. Therefor, it might not have been part of a weapon worth conserving, which again, is why we don't see these weapons all over museums.
Anyway, this is our search, and you can find the main discussion here with respective sources and images of contemporary throwing axe designs. I also asked two language forums which independently confirmed the word does indeed mean throwing axes. At this point, I'll consider it a fairly solid foundation to start from.
Important to note, I'm not going to say that throwing axes were used elsewhere, nor that throwing axes were not used elsewhere. The geographical extent is something I've not looked into. This means I don't have an answer for you if you're questioning to which geographical extent these were used. Hopefully future research can give us a satisfying answer in this regard.
Two related fun facts:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
What is interesting to note, are some mentions of other similar weapons.
Firstly, the law from Kampen stated that to carry concealed throwing axes and fist-hammers were were not allowed. The fist-hammer mentioned in combination with the throwing axe as concealed is interesting. It means they were personal weapons that could be carried on your side. What the fist-hammer looks like is not known to me. It could be similar to the one mentioned in a video by Matt Easton. It's quite the unique weapon.
Lastly, thanks to a fellow TWCenter member +Marius+ contribution, apparently a peculiarly shaped war hammer used for throwing. More firewood for the discussion is always welcome.
"From the 14th to early 16th centuries, a special type of the war hammer was used in central Europe as a missile weapon, which was given a spinning motion in flight. Functionally similar to the throwing axes, these war hammers had a conical pointed head with a spike and a fluke, and the steel handle was also sharply pointed at the bottom. In its simplest form, the throwing hammer had the form of a Latin cross whose four pointed arms were designed to inflict a wound however the weapon hit."
The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons Edited by Leonid Tarassuk & Claude Blair.
~Wille
Last edited by Kjertesvein; March 03, 2017 at 01:16 PM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
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Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)
Originally Posted by Minnesinger
Above all I'd like to thank you for your great work, the templar, hospitaller and burgundian revamps are amongst my favorite by far. Concerning the new german units, however, there are some aesthetic choices that I'd like to question, and i'll be glad if you take my post into account.
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