Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)

[Wallachian]

Well the mod goes to 1500 and as far as I know the landsknecht started appearing in the late XVth century so there is a very small window of crossover.

[Slytacular]

The Landsknecht will be in the mod, but as a Pikemen and not a giant two handed swordsmen.

[Oliverkahn]

I don't know much about this fantasy discussion, but i actually really like the updated units. Especially the dismounted knights. I had always expected and wished for the dismounted knights to be as the other great western kingdoms, but this actually adds some uniqueness to the knightly class, yet with the western feel. So i am satisfied with the new models

[Knight2708]

Some more thought on the German factions' roster:

I like the idea of Landwehr as halberdiers, but i think they should be more of a light halberd unit. Landwehr are pretty much semi-professional militias and I think their equipment should reflect that. i obviously haven't seen their model yet, but I think a look similar to the Hussite units (without any religious insignia obviously) would be pretty appropriate.

This may be a bit controversial, but I sort of think that the Landsknechte should be only available to the Holy Roman Empire initially. The first Landsknecht regiments were founded by Emperor Maximillian I in an attempt to create a standing Imperial army and only when Germany tore itself to shreds during the wars of the Reformation in the 16th and 17th centuries did they become infamous mercenaries. I have no idea whether something like this could be implemented, but ideally I would suggest some sort of mechanic where if the HRE continues losing with them, has economic difficulties, doesn't pay them or something similar they would desert and become available to surrounding factions as mercenaries.

Aussölder I kind of feel should really be only a 15th or maybe also 14th century unit when mercenaries became more common.

Burgmannen could be expanded to cover multiple roles such as melee infantry, spearmen and crossbowmen, filling similar roles to serjeants in the old roster.

Another idea could be to add Stadtwachen or Stadtgardisten (city watch or city guard). These could be professional units that would be recruitable in Free Imperial Cities or other major towns and would be higher level troops than militias and would be well equiped and paid by the rich cities. They could honestly fill a pretty wide array of roles such as halberdiers, melee infantry, spearmen or crossbowmen.

Adding some low tier levy units would also make sense.

[Heisenburrg]

Yes, Landsknechts appeared for the first time as part of Maximilian I.`s military reformes around 1480 (btw some time before the famous spanish tercio) and firstly fought with long pikes.
But I rereaded something about the "Doppelsöldner"; it seems like the term was already common in the late 15. century, so they could replace the not so well known "Aussöldner".

And instead of "Burgmannen" I would prefer the term "Kriegsknechte" for something similiar to "sergeants". Could go along with both variants.

For Brabant I read about a special kind of mercenaries, the "Brabanzonen", equipped with an wide arsenal of weapons. Another idea for a unique, regional unit.

[lolIsuck]

Yes, Landsknechts appeared for the first time as part of Maximilian I.`s military reformes around 1480 (btw some time before the famous spanish tercio) and firstly fought with long pikes.
But I rereaded something about the "Doppelsöldner"; it seems like the term was already common in the late 15. century, so they could replace the not so well known "Aussöldner".

And instead of "Burgmannen" I would prefer the term "Kriegsknechte" for something similiar to "sergeants". Could go along with both variants.

For Brabant I read about a special kind of mercenaries, the "Brabanzonen", equipped with an wide arsenal of weapons. Another idea for a unique, regional unit.

Brabançons just indicates where the mercs are from though, Brabant, not what type of unit they were. Seeing as they're mercenaries they wouldn't be uniquely available to the duchy itself either of course. But I agree it's a good idea to for a mercenary unit.

[Knight2708]

Also adding a unit armed with Große Messer/Kriegsmesser would be pretty cool, could be a unit for Austria, as afaik they used them most commonly.

[Slytacular]

Well, don't confuse dueling weapons with war weapons. Both demands entirely different situations. Guys with big swords during the 15th century are usually the aristocratic people leading a unit of soldiers such as shown in the Swiss Chronicles.

[anders99]

Well, don't confuse dueling weapons with war weapons. Both demands entirely different situations. Guys with big swords during the 15th century are usually the aristocratic people leading a unit of soldiers such as shown in the Swiss Chronicles.

I thought it was commonly accepted that both the Swiss and the germans used to intersperse the front rank of pike formations with two-handed swords or halberds, and that part of their purpose was to hack at incoming pikes? as such these werent noble officers, but line soldiers.
doppelsoldner AFAIK was just a term for the front rank soldiers in a pike formation, who received a double salary (sold - the term soldier og "soldat" in Norwegian is AFAIK based on the term "sol" menaning salary or pay) on account of the increased risk.

[Slytacular]

I thought it was commonly accepted that both the Swiss and the germans used to intersperse the front rank of pike formations with two-handed swords or halberds, and that part of their purpose was to hack at incoming pikes? as such these werent noble officers, but line soldiers.
doppelsoldner AFAIK was just a term for the front rank soldiers in a pike formation, who received a double salary (sold - the term soldier og "soldat" in Norwegian is AFAIK based on the term "sol" menaning salary or pay) on account of the increased risk.

Yeah, but two handed swords used like that is something you see in the 16th century. This mod strictly ends at the 15th century.

[Heisenburrg]

Yeah, of course. I didnt mean that they were a special Type of unit only using x/y-weapons or tactics. Just meant that Brabancons is an own Self-Definition term for a group of mercenaries coming from Brabant.

[Slytacular]

Anyways, for Austrians I would suggest removing Great Helmets for the 14th century because I think those kind of helmets later become more of a heraldic symbol rather than a practical piece in combat. I see a lot more open faced bascinets in the art, and I think it would do the Austrians more justice emphasizing that for at least tier 2. Late 14th to early 15th century brings a rise to varied shapes of kettles. In a way, the Austrians seem to resemble Hussites in common equipment. I don't mind the occasional fur, but I think those specific kinds of fur hoodies are more fantasy than historical considering that I have yet to see any depictions of use similar to what the units are equipped with. Fur is something I usually see as being a trim to a dress or coat.

Wears a bascinet, but shows a great helmet for heraldry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/823/19910/

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Wears a bascinet, but shows a great helmet for heraldry.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/823/19910/

No...the great helmet is not worn on his head so that the effigy can show his face, because it's an effigy. See the chain attached to it coming from the armor? It's part of his equipment, not just a heraldic device. It would go over the bascinet, which was common in the 14th century.

The greathelms I used for the 14th century units are 14th century great helms. And I didn't use them for the foot troops at all, because great helms in the 14th century were so massive they would not have been very practical for use on foot

[Pinarius]

I agree with Slytacular - Tier 2 is actually more like 2nd half of the 1300s til about 1420 than just the 1300s. For example, if I was playing a Battle of Mühldorf scenario, I'd rather use Tier 1 units for it.

[Heisenburrg]

@Fawn Rescuer

Do you still need some coat of arms? Could easily find some more.

[Archilles]

Thanks for the heraldric of the different houses! Some of your links doesn´t work I think!

It would be great if you could add the land they came from... or what part of the HRE

Adlige zu Füß... that would be Adelige zu Fuß... or do you use the old german form of this word? If so I wouldn´t like it cause everybody would think it is wrong...


By the way - I was looking on the sergeant spearmen and their shields - I think there should be a lot of crosses on them, we were the most holy of all empires and the cross was everywhere in our castles, on our flags and so on...

[Imperator Karl franz IV SIGMA]

no i didn't typed in German for 2 Weeks

[Pinarius]

For the Holy Roman Empire I'd only add those families that live in the core territories (see map), That's why I began with Swabian noble familes in the Research-Thread: Characters and Political Relations. I will also add Hessian and Franconian ones.

[Imperator Karl franz IV SIGMA]

i added only hessian nobility family's

[Minnesinger]

Above all I'd like to thank you for your great work, the templar, hospitaller and burgundian revamps are amongst my favorite by far. Concerning the new german units, however, there are some aesthetic choices that I'd like to question, and i'll be glad if you take my post into account.
Many, if not the majority, of the new german skins have furs with them, and I don't think it's relevant, for climate in Germanic states probably wasn't colder than in northern France or southern England. In my opinion the use of furs in the assets is barely relevant for the scandinavian factions, it is more suitable for the few units that historically evolved in mountainous or cold environments (like caucasians, rus ...) but it doesn't fit with the armies from western Europe. With their furs and their hairiness the new german units look like Cimbres or Teutons who dress in with some medieval elements, I hope you don't take this badly but it is a feeling that doesn't leave me when I see these units ...There is also another point that I'd like to discuss about, the frequency and variety of horned helmets and crests. Again in my opinion there are too many "teutonic-like" horned helmets in your assets. I have zero skills in modelling, so I know the criticism is easy, but considering these crests and horns depicted in manuscripts and sculptures were worn in battlefields and not only in celebrations (as jousting), wich is not obvious at all, I'd recommend multiplying the crest's models, using for exemple sources like the beautiful codex Manesse, actually kept at the university of Heidelberg. Even if over-interpretation and misinterpretation are real threats for the one who wants to use medieval sources (as a history student with a few remains on medieval iconography study, I tell you : be very wary !), so even if it is a mistake I'd recommend a better diversity in helmet's ornaments and at the same time more varied coats of arms for the XIIIth knights, if it is possible the crests and the coat of arms should match together, for these ornaments were always linked to the knight's blazon.
At last I find that the use of two-handed swords by XIIIth knights is somewhat disturbing, are you really sure that it is historical? I don't know if bastard swords were used in the XIIIth century, but even if this is the case the shield was widely used by medieval soldiers of all horizons at this time, and especially by western knights, it offered not only protection to them but also a surface to put their blazon and facilitate their recognition on the battlefield.
I apologize for my bad english skills and I hope you will read my post in its entirety. I would like to share below some of the codex Manesse's illuminations that I find interesting concerning my suggestion; there are plenty of them, you shoud check it if you didn't know its existence.