Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)

[Oliverkahn]

Is there a chance, that for future custom updates, that the different german factions could be present in the HRE faction, like in France and England?

[Douchebag]

Will the Holy Roman Empire get Forlorn Hope and Gothic Knights?? Just like in Medieval 2 Total War.

[Slytacular]

The knights you get in the Late Era is basically gothic knights. Forlorn Hope is out of the timeperiod in this.

[Douchebag]

The knights you get in the Late Era is basically gothic knights. Forlorn Hope is out of the timeperiod in this.

another stupid question. are you guys gonna add trebuchets into this mod???

[Baron279]

another stupid question. are you guys gonna add trebuchets into this mod???

Yes it is planned, some of us (Sly) will cooperate with the RoM team to do so.

[Locus_Devium]

I love the HRE units like everybody here in the forum.
Will the HRE get more units?
They lack millita units like spear millitia or millitia hellbardiers which are important for early game and also in this kind exist for france, england as bill or voulge millitia.
Probably also more basic units for late era because not everybody could afford heavy plate armour like the your late era units are wearing now.

[zsimmortal]

I love the HRE units like everybody here in the forum.
Will the HRE get more units?
They lack millita units like spear millitia or millitia hellbardiers which are important for early game and also in this kind exist for france, england as bill or voulge millitia.
Probably also more basic units for late era because not everybody could afford heavy plate armour like the your late era units are wearing now.

They have urban militia in T1.

[Locus_Devium]

They have urban militia in T1.

I mean Spear millitia and halberd millita. Basic units which exist in other factions.
Also HRE has no Squires and no knightly retinue. It is not necessary to have these units gameplay-wise?

All the way down i am sorry because actually it seems nobody works on HRE+sub factions now.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G925F mit Tapatalk

[Archilles]

This mod is amazing! I bought the game yesterday only for this mod! It´s amazing (to say it like Trump)
I am from Austria - and for that I want "my" country to be represent in the best possible way!

The shield patterns you took for all the factions (red white red with black panters on a yellow backpaint) are austrian ebmlems and shouldn´t be used by german units!
This are the ones i am talking about
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4rntner_Wappen
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzburger_Wappen

One is from Salzburg the other one is from Kärnten... and they should only be used by austrian knights!
Otherwise the white wheel on the red shield isn´t from Austria... I think it is from Mainz or Osnabrück - a german emblem

And when you put emblems from Salzburg and from Kärnten - why are there no eblems from Styria? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steirisches_Wappen


I made a private mod for medieval 2 back in the days - may I can help you with austrian shields? Or units? Like soldiers from styria - or lower austria - or vienna... Or the great soldiers from Tirol??? (but they should be in the barvarian roster - I think when the game starts they weren´t austrians...

By they way do you think about adding the Habsburgs to the game? They took over Austria in 1278 - cause the Babenburger didn´t have a heir.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

This mod is amazing! I bought the game yesterday only for this mod! It´s amazing (to say it like Trump)
I am from Austria - and for that I want "my" country to be represent in the best possible way!

The shield patterns you took for all the factions (red white red with black panters on a yellow backpaint) are austrian ebmlems and shouldn´t be used by german units!
This are the ones i am talking about
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A4rntner_Wappen
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzburger_Wappen

One is from Salzburg the other one is from Kärnten... and they should only be used by austrian knights!
Otherwise the white wheel on the red shield isn´t from Austria... I think it is from Mainz or Osnabrück - a german emblem

And when you put emblems from Salzburg and from Kärnten - why are there no eblems from Styria? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steirisches_Wappen


I made a private mod for medieval 2 back in the days - may I can help you with austrian shields? Or units? Like soldiers from styria - or lower austria - or vienna... Or the great soldiers from Tirol??? (but they should be in the barvarian roster - I think when the game starts they weren´t austrians...

By they way do you think about adding the Habsburgs to the game? They took over Austria in 1278 - cause the Babenburger didn´t have a heir.

Right now, all German factions have all the same units except for the knights, so it's no surprise that some of the heraldry is off.

I'm working on some changes for the HRE German factions, and some of that will include making more 'unique' units for each faction. I'd love some help with heraldry, it's a minefield.

For now, since you're Austrian and love the faction so much, here's a sneak peak of some of the changes (and you can expect similar things for the rest of the German factions) I've made so far.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Adjusted armor/helmet variations on the units to make them more distinctly German, and set them apart visually from the French/English/Italians








That last one is the Duke's Heerschild, he has more 'horned' helmets in his entourage than a typical 'knight' unit.

Dismounted Ritter for High Period:




Dismounted Ritter for Early Period. This unit I based on 13th century German Images which show knights wielding swords two-handed, their shields slung on their back. Also, most if not all the earliest longswords came from Germany, and Germany has a very long tradition (most likely the earliest tradition) for two-handed sword use. Therefore, the Dismounted Ritter for German factions in early period will be a two-handed sword unit:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For reference





Last one is HRE dismounted Ritter, you can really see the style difference from the French side-by-side


Also, thanks to some research Kjvertstein did, we found that Hurlbats seemed to be fairly common equipment for German levy units, especially in the North. Therefore, 2 German units, Aussoldner and Stiftsmannen, will throw axes as a precursor to a charge. They only have 2 though, otherwise it is a bit OP. From the Saxon levy document: "Every landman in this same Vyland (the municipal rural area around Bremen) shall have at all times a troyen (protective padded coat), an iron hat, a pair of gauntlets, a shield, a throwing axe and a pike of sixteen feet and not shorter, on pain of paying one mark, .... "

[Filips Augustus]

A user asks a question and we suddenly get a whole preview? We should ask a lot more questions guys ! Anyway they look very awesome good job!

[Pinarius]

Great looking units, but I'm not a fan for this two-handed sword fetish for Tier 1.

[Slytacular]

The Estonian kettle helmets were more of a Scandinavian feature than a German one. The fur makes the Austrians look more winter themed than the Norwegians, and I would like to see more of Narf's older German Sallets used for Austrians. Better yet, do the Austrians a little more justice to their actual portrayal: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...tution=&page=2

[marmalade]

I agree with Pinarius. The visual distinction is cool and all but those manuscript illustrations seem to be pretty clearly showing the knights using a one-handed sword in both hands, with one hand clasped over another.

[finix]

What I will say now is a personal opinion and does not involve anyone from our team. Personally, like an artist who has made all unit cards in the mod, and as a fan of the medieval times, as someone who is just have a look and idea of weaponry and armor in this times I wish Fawn to give yourself a break from making units. I do not want to be perceived as a personal attack, but I can not remain silent moreIt's not something that don't said before - Your units look more fantasy than historically correct - Austrian knights and helmets with horns!!!! Absurd
Sorry that I sound like dunce, but in my opinion it is hurting the historicity of this mod. Otherwise you are super for fantasy mod

[Maroni_The_Bat2]

Just my two cents, but I mean that sometimes youre allowed to go with the rule of cool. I really like the new Austrian look.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

I agree with Pinarius. The visual distinction is cool and all but those manuscript illustrations seem to be pretty clearly showing the knights using a one-handed sword in both hands, with one hand clasped over another.

Perhaps. One of the theories is that handles gradually grew longer over a long period of time, perhaps as the style of fighting changed. My personal opinion is that two-handed sword use became more common as maille armor became more common, because a two-handed swing or thrust is more likely to wound a man in chainmail (depending on the quality of the armor). There is plenty of evidence, however, of swords with handles long enough to be gripped with two hands. Also, the earliest known German longsword tradition comes from Johannes Liechtenauer, who lived sometime during the mid 14th century. Though none of his own works survive, the works of his students (which I have read many times) all claim that the arts he taught were already very old even by the time Liechtenauer was alive, suggesting a German tradition going back at least to the 1200s. You can read more about it here: https://www.academia.edu/2331258/Ear...m_and_Function, and there are surviving 13th century examples here: https://myarmoury.com/feature_spotxii.html, and even one found in the mountains of Poland dating from the 12th century! Here is a link to a swordsmith I know who made this reproduction of it (with pictures of the original as well: http://artofswordmaking.com/gallery/...ongsword-12thc

The Estonian kettle helmets were more of a Scandinavian feature than a German one. The fur makes the Austrians look more winter themed than the Norwegians, and I would like to see more of Narf's older German Sallets used for Austrians. Better yet, do the Austrians a little more justice to their actual portrayal: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...tution=&page=2

Those bulb-shaped kettles are pretty common in german artwork as well

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here are two examples of specifically Austrian origin, one with the kind of bulbous helmet (possibly a kettle, but I'm more concerned with the shape being similar to the asset we have than the type of helmet it is, though the presence of that kind of kettle elsewhere in Germany, given the sparcity of specifically Austrian sources from that period, I think is justification enough), and one with horns:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As to the helmets I chose for late period - I wasn't aware that narf helmet was german in origin. Do you know what helmet it's based on? The reason I didn't use it is this: One distinct thing about sallets from Germany is that they very often have longer tails than elsewhere in Europe (you have also told me this yourself). Therefore, even though in real life they probably wouldn't all have long sallets like that, I think it is a good way to set them apart visually, and we have enough assets that it also still provides a decent variety. Those sallets you designed, btw - so excellent!

What I will say now is a personal opinion and does not involve anyone from our team. Personally, like an artist who has made all unit cards in the mod, and as a fan of the medieval times, as someone who is just have a look and idea of weaponry and armor in this times I wish Fawn to give yourself a break from making units. I do not want to be perceived as a personal attack, but I can not remain silent moreIt's not something that don't said before - Your units look more fantasy than historically correct - Austrian knights and helmets with horns!!!! Absurd
Sorry that I sound like dunce, but in my opinion it is hurting the historicity of this mod. Otherwise you are super for fantasy mod

Finix, I'm starting to get a little upset that every time I post something you accuse me of being too 'fantasy.' I really don't like fantasy, and everything I do for this mod, I do with strong basis in reality. I don't think you understand how important historical accuracy in this mod is to me. It is, in my opinion, paramount. There are DOZENS of examples of german horned helmets in artwork. However, that could be just artistic interpretation, right? Maybe manuscripts don't always reflect reality. Ok, I'll allow for that. Well, there are also DOZENS of examples of horned helmets in effigies, which can be considered much more true to life in their interpretation. Here are a few that I found without much effort:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I believe in things looking historical, but there's no reason I can't also make the units look fly as hell - as long as I follow the sources

[Night_Hunter]

Hello everyone I would like to say that I appriciate that you insist on your point of view Fawn and explain it to us all using historical sources. Now I really like your idea of early period of two-handed swordsmen for German factions because it really adds variety and uniqueness. In my opinion every faction should have at least one unit that somehow differentiate them from the others and make them more playing enjoyable. I also admit that some of the variants look a little bit too Nordish like bear skins ... but in general I like your interpretation of Austria Such as all of your work.

Now I would like to express also something else: I appriciate work of all the team members namely Finix - Your unit cards and 2D art is absolutely stunning and is one of the main reasons why I am a big fun of this mod, Sly - your models and Nordic factions are perfectly accurate and also make this mod outstanding, and also, Ltd, Warman and all the others ... I would like to thank you all for your great work! I just have a small request to you - please, stay united because that is your biggest strength - you all are great in what you are doing but only if you cooperate and respect each other you can Achieve Your Goals. Of course that everyone has a different point of view on things but sometimes it is more beneficial to try to understand the other's than assert yours ... Once again a big thank to you all. You are amazing!

And sorry for my English...

[Slytacular]

@Fawn, it's not the shape, but rather the make I am concerned with. The way the helmet is pieced together is something that sets apart Scandinavia and potentially the entire Baltic Sea from the rest of Europe. Also, there is an armour distinction from Northern Germany versus Southern Germany. Though it's not unlikely I could be speaking from my ass. I always get the impression that Southern Germany has a lot of Italian influence in their armours

@finix, it may seem unlikely, but crests on helmets worn by Medieval aristocratic and anyone special with a title could potentially wear horns. Although it's a little weird to see an entire unit of knights wearing horns, it is not incorrect historically.

[Filips Augustus]

I was just about to say that. Horns on helmets aren't fantasy people!

I also checked Sly's link with medieval Austrian manuscripts, and oh boy there are some weird ones among them. A nice example is a pavise shield in the form of a human face: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4745/14034/

I presume we won't see this in the mod xD?