Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)

[Minnesinger]

That's actually very good-looking !

[Visarion]

Here a little preview of austrian pavise shields I am working on to give my home faction a more elite look!

Some shields I used as a reference:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...436442e185.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...acdacfb8c2.jpg
http://pics.myarmoury.com/pavise10_s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...dfb159afe0.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ty Archilles! Keep up the good work! Any chance for a complete Swiss preview!?

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Okay so I've been doing a lot of digging lately (which turned out to be quite the pain for the HRE in this period, because historians really seem to have an adverseness to studying the medieval German military, probably because the HRE was such a complicated mess and looking at somewhat unified states and Empires is a lot easier), and I have been able to find some useful information.

First I'd like to talk again about unit names:

Heerschild: Now this is a term that honestly makes little sense in its current use. The Heerschild was roughly speaking a legal document that determined the ranking of the feudal social order within the nobility of the HRE and I am not quite sure what the idea of it denoting a personal guard or retinue is based on. If you want to use a German word "Gefolge"(retinue), "Garde"(guard) or "Leibgarde"(body guard) would be more appropriate, otherwise you could just name the general's unit after the ruler it includes, like with many other factions.

Landwehr: This term starts denoting a military unit only in the modern period, coming into common use in the 19th century. In the Middle Ages a Landwehr was a earthen fortification that divided feudal lands and other territories. The proper term for the unit would probably be "Wehrbauer". These were peasants that were encouraged to settle in border regions which they were tasked to defend until reinforcements would arrive in case of invasion, in exchange for freedom from serfdom and certain dues. Equipment would obviously be rather light with a mix of glaives, bills and flails and later halberds as weapons, somewhat similar to the Saxon halberdiers in the Hungarian roster. Due to the constant instability and conflict within and outside the HRE they would probably be decently effective and experienced troops, but definitely on the low-end equipment-wise. The Austrian ones seem to have been particularly effective, apparently being a part of the reason for the successful defense against the Ottomans, so Austria could maybe get a more elite/better equipped version.

Dienstleute: These were privileged serfs that performed administrative and military tasks for their feudal lord in exchange for being provided food, lodging and certain privileges, forming a intermediary class between the peasantry and aristocracy. Militarily, they seem to have fulfilled a comparable role to sergeants as lighter but still well equipped cavalry and infantry supporting their feudal lord in combat. I'd suggest renaming the Aussoldner to something like dismounted/foot Dienstleute similar to the foot sergeants of other factions. Towards the end of the Middle Ages the term "Reisige"(roughly translates to travelers) seems to become increasingly common, denoting paid, usually mounted troops that join their feudal lord on campaign, I would suggest using this name for the tier 3 Diesntleute to reflect its increasingly common use and the decline of the ministerial system to be replaced with paid troops in the late Middle Ages.

Knechte: I'd suggest renaming them "Fußknechte" to identity them more clearly as foot soldiers, as "Knecht" can have a wide range of meanings in German. These would be the common, trained, but not permanently serving foot troops in contrast to the standing force of mounted Dienstleuten/Reisigen. Their main weapons are polearms, initially glaives and biilhooks, later either halberds or pikes.
Depending on whether you give the tier 3 Fußknechte pikes or halberds, you could give the other weapon to a urban unit. Like in many other European countries at the time, these were generally well equipped and organised, but would usually only fight for the defensive interests of their city, making them unreliable campaign troops. I would also suggest creating units specific to a few major cities, like is the case in the Swiss roster, with their own heraldry, colors and symbols, as urban troops took great pride in their urban identity.

So basically this is the changed roster I would suggest:
Wehrbauern: light polearm infantry
Fußknechte: medium polearm infantry (tiers 1 and 2), medium-heavy pike/halberd infantry (tier 3)
Diesnstleute: heavy melee cavalry (tiers 1 and 2)
Foot/Dismounted Diesnstleute: heavy melee infantry (tiers 1 and 2)
Reisige: heavy melee cavalry (tier 3)
Foot/Dismounted Reisige: heavy melee infantry (tier 3)
Miliz/Burgher: medium pike/halberd infantry

Another thing is that I am kinda unsure about the Trabanten. According to wikipedia a Trabant is a personal bodyguard or adjutant and I have found no mention of Bohemian archers fighting as mercenaries in Germany and would therefore like to know what sources the unit is based on.

And finally after doing some more research on them, I am completely convinced that the Landsknechte should be a HRE-specific unit. In the time frame of this mod and even well into the 16th century they were the standing army of the Empire during the somewhat stable rule of Maximilian I. and fiercely loyal to the Emperor.
I have also found that their distinctive look seems to have already emerged in the mod's time frame. Apparently the slashed and puffed style of their clothing developed, because they found the tight clothes of the late 15th century to be impractical in combat and derided to modify them to be more comfortable, and also as an expression of their emerging corporate identity. By 1503 their style of clothing was already causing enough controversy that their right to wear what they wanted was guaranteed by the 1503 Reichstag. I also found two pre-1500 images displaying the typical Landsknecht look.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Edit: Just to be clear I dont think that the whole unit should have this look, but I think combining this with a more traditional style could create a very cool and unique look. Like giving maybe around half the unit slashed and puffed sleeves and/or trousers and having the rest look like more traditional late era pikemen.


Also what are the "Marscher"? I have never heard that name.

This is some good info. Thanks. I took some time tonight to make some stuff for the Landsknechts. Was denkt ihr?:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Slytacular]

Not bad looking at all! You should stop using my horrible and disgusting breastplate that extends past the hips. I regret creating that asset. I'm working on some better looking stuff I can show you the next time you're on Steam Chat

[You_Guess_Who]

Landsknechts. Was denkt ihr?:

Why not request for puffy shirts and puffy hats as well to Sly?

Here a little preview of austrian pavise shields I am working on to give my home faction a more elite look!

Some shields I used as a reference:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...436442e185.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...acdacfb8c2.jpg
http://pics.myarmoury.com/pavise10_s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...dfb159afe0.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Those pictures make me want to rub my hands on the canvas and sniff the tempera and oil of those shields

[Knight2708]

This is some good info. Thanks. I took some time tonight to make some stuff for the Landsknechts. Was denkt ihr?:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Happy to hear that you're taking some of my feedback into account. I really like the changes you've made so far, the Landsknechte are already looking quite similar to what I had hoped they would look like tbh. I like how you've done the puffed sleeves, although the textures could probably still be improved somewhat and I hope you can add the slits in a more 3D-looking way. I really like the choice to mostly use open Schallern as helmets, they look very fitting, although adding in some cervelliers (afaik there were still used in the time due to their cheap cost) and maybe even some of the typical hats could spice their look up a bit more.
One thing that I think looks rather out of place is the widespread use of padding/gambesons which seem to have been gone largely out of use by the late 1400s. I'd suggest removing the padding that can be seen below the chest plates of numerous models and replacing the gamebesons with a short brigandine like those you used for some of the tier 3 Castilian units for the units that wear only gambesons.
It would also be cool if you could make the mail coifs longer to look like the Bischofskragen which were used very frequently by the Landsknechte, although I assume that making them too long could do result in clipping issues.

[Knight2708]

No, certainly not. The ministeriales functioned as commanders of castles and the respective men, for example for a bishop or duke. I would expect them to be at least as well equipped as knights - if not better, because knights often were rather poor.

What are sources you basing this on? What I've found on them so far indicates that their status was rather low.

From "The Routledge Companion to Medieval Warfare":
MINISTERIALES (DIENSTLEUTE) Knight-serfs, unfree soldiers (or servants) in Germany. Ministeriales is Latin for Dienstleute (servants), appearing under Conrad II (HRE) in the 11th century. They gave military service to their lords. Some held land to which the service was tied. They had to defend their lord’s land, but were compensated for additional service.

The Knechte were retinue, the Reisläufer mercenary. The Knechte were not trained to fight in large formations and were not expeted to seriously contribute to battle. That would be the main difference when setting them up as a TW unit.

What I'm trying to say is that there should be a distinction between the common Fußvolk and more professional mounted Reisige.
I'm also not convinced that Knechte were as ineffective as contemporaries made them out to be. I remember reading numerous times that contemporary comentators who mostly beonged to the nobility would quite commonly discount the role of "common" foot soldiers, who were not eligeble for ransom, in battles, as the glory of battle was seen as the prerogative of the nobility and the contributions of non-nobles were commonly ignored. IIRC this is also one of the resons why troop numbers for medieval battles are often difficult to pin down, because certain noble commentators did not percieve the non-noble combatants as worthy of mention, unless they were a source of national pride like the longbowmen were for the English.

Yes, but that's no longer Middle Ages.

The mod's official end date is 1500 and quite a few factions' tier 3 units are based on soldiers from the very end of the 15th century. The 15th century is also still what I would consider late Middle Ages.

[Heisenburrg]

Was denkt ihr?

Was ich denke? Very Landsknecht-ish!

Fun-fact about Landsknechts; Did you know, that many of them padded out their pants to suggest to have a big cock? Does not have to be included in this mod, just saying...

[KEA]

What are sources you basing this on?

For example, Christopher Gravett "German Medieval Armies 1000 - 1300": At the end of the 12th Century, the ministerialis was a land-holding knight similar to the free knights, who looked upon this development with distaste. Some ministeriales became extremely powerful, holding several castles and leading retinue.
You might also check Joachim Ehlers "Die Ritter".

Do you by chance have any sources supporting your point of view?

From "The Routledge Companion to Medieval Warfare":
MINISTERIALES (DIENSTLEUTE) Knight-serfs, unfree soldiers (or servants) in Germany. Ministeriales is Latin for Dienstleute (servants), appearing under Conrad II (HRE) in the 11th century. They gave military service to their lords. Some held land to which the service was tied. They had to defend their lord’s land, but were compensated for additional service.

And was does that say about the material status of the ministeriales as opposed to feudal knights?

What I'm trying to say is that there should be a distinction between the common Fußvolk and more professional mounted Reisige.

You should first get those terms straight: what Fußvolk, what Reisige? Are you talking about retinue, mercenaries, the Landwehr of your earlier posts?

I'm also not convinced that Knechte were as ineffective as contemporaries made them out to be.

And what is that based upon?

I remember reading numerous times that contemporary comentators who mostly beonged to the nobility would quite commonly discount the role of "common" foot soldiers, who were not eligeble for ransom, in battles, as the glory of battle was seen as the prerogative of the nobility and the contributions of non-nobles were commonly ignored. IIRC this is also one of the resons why troop numbers for medieval battles are often difficult to pin down, because certain noble commentators did not percieve the non-noble combatants as worthy of mention, unless they were a source of national pride like the longbowmen were for the English.

Of course, the commoners were not caught for ransom because they didn't own any lands from which said ransom could be paid. All a mercenary owned he carried with him. So you would kill him and take it. No need to hold him for ransom.

The sources are a different problem, I had discussed that earlier. While knights usually were called milites, implying everyone else would be a non-combatant, we also find terms like populi designating the non-noble part of an army. This doesn't say a thing. Don't forget who wrote those sources and who was the audience. We do have a fair image of those armies, and there are no hints that the retinue played a major role unless we suppose that there was much, much more fighting going on with absolutely no connection to the recorded battle at all (which indeed did record fighting of non-nobles when relevant).

The mod's official end date is 1500 and quite a few factions' tier 3 units are based on soldiers from the very end of the 15th century. The 15th century is also still what I would consider late Middle Ages.

If the mod-designers wish to. I wouldn't bother with units that historically would appear in the last turns of the game and most likely no player will be ever be seeing in his campaign (you either quit or win much earlier).

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Not bad looking at all! You should stop using my horrible and disgusting breastplate that extends past the hips. I regret creating that asset. I'm working on some better looking stuff I can show you the next time you're on Steam Chat

ok. I like the style of that breastplate as something simple for lower-class troops in late period, but the other, more accurate versions you made of it clip with almost everything. I'll see what else you have for me :-)

Happy to hear that you're taking some of my feedback into account.

For sure, man. Like I said, I generally do take people's feedback into account. I just get defensive when some people tell me my work is crap without adding anything useful to the discourse. It makes me feel like crap and makes me not want to put effort into making units anymore. Good news is that it seems that the discussion in this thread has become a bit more civilized as of late, and there is some useful info here I can start incorporating into the rosters. Instead of rushing and keeping all the german rosters the same as they were before, I will focus first on making a good HRE roster, then going on from there.

I agree that I need hats, but there wasn't anything good in the asset list (that I saw), and based on the vitriol I got last time, I was afraid to take any risks. I haven't checked in a while with Sly or anyone though, perhaps there is some new stuff.

Brigandines are an interesting idea, I'll see how that looks. I don't really want to use cerveilliers for the tier 3 unit. Even though they would definitely be historical, I'd like to keep them in Tier 2 in order to maintain some distinction in equipment. I try to keep equipment overlap between tiers to a minimum for stylistic reasons.

[Knight2708]

ok. I like the style of that breastplate as something simple for lower-class troops in late period, but the other, more accurate versions you made of it clip with almost everything. I'll see what else you have for me :-)

For sure, man. Like I said, I generally do take people's feedback into account. I just get defensive when some people tell me my work is crap without adding anything useful to the discourse. It makes me feel like crap and makes me not want to put effort into making units anymore. Good news is that it seems that the discussion in this thread has become a bit more civilized as of late, and there is some useful info here I can start incorporating into the rosters. Instead of rushing and keeping all the german rosters the same as they were before, I will focus first on making a good HRE roster, then going on from there.

I agree that I need hats, but there wasn't anything good in the asset list (that I saw), and based on the vitriol I got last time, I was afraid to take any risks. I haven't checked in a while with Sly or anyone though, perhaps there is some new stuff.

Brigandines are an interesting idea, I'll see how that looks. I don't really want to use cerveilliers for the tier 3 unit. Even though they would definitely be historical, I'd like to keep them in Tier 2 in order to maintain some distinction in equipment. I try to keep equipment overlap between tiers to a minimum for stylistic reasons.

Okay cool. I do agree with Sly though that that particular chestplate doesn't look that good and better assets are probably available.
And yeah parts of this thread got rather heated. Personally I don't agree with every change you made, but I always tried to keep all my posts polite and constructive. I will say though that it probably wasn't a good idea to change all the units without posting a full preview beforehand and giving people the opportunity to give their feedback. It would have been better to first post a preview and ask the community for thoughts and further research and ideas and than implement the new units.

[Minnesinger]

I found some pictures that could be relevant concerning XVth century's equipment of german knights and soldiers; many of theses helmets, weapons, gauntlets ... are already in the mod, apart from a few details, anyway I'd like to share them. All of them are from paintings.

Some of the panels of the Passion of Karlsruhe, painted around 1435-1450 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

An illumination of the Speculum Humanae Salvationis actually conserved at National Library of Madrid, dated from 1432 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.edilan.es/hojas/0000e.htm

Some Konrad Witz (around 1400-1445/46) paintings depicting knights in armour :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The next ones are from flemish painters but I think it's relevant to share them for Flanders in XVth century is strongly connected to german principalities.

Some paintings on Saint Ursula Shrine, by Hans Memling in 1489 (currently preserved in the Memling Museum, Bruges) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Diptych of Munich by Hans Memling, painted around 1490 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

One of the panels of The Ghent Altarpiece by the brothers van Eyck, finished in 1432 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course the iconic gothic armours should be inserted in the mod, sorry modders if you find me difficult

[KEA]

Fantastic find. In particular the insane amount of details in clothing to be found on the Passion plates. It also shows how well armored the soldiers of the Late Middle Ages were: even men displayed as humble as not wearing hoses, having shoes of straw, or even no shoes at all, at least wear mail and a helmet. That's a huge difference to the 12th Century where only knights and other elites could afford armor and common soldiers were an easy game for them. Something that's often overlooked when discussing 14th and 15th Century military history and the "decline of the knights".

[Heisenburrg]

Hey Fawn. Do you have some new stuff in stock? ^^

[robtim92]

Hey fawn, I was wondering what the final verdict on the cloaks and mantles was. I think your units look good with the exception of those things, so i was just curious.

[Knight2708]

Not sure whether you have seen these already, but this Wikipedia page has the coats of arms of almost all of the Free Imperial Cities: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_...A4dte#Heraldik

(Just to be clear I obviously dont expect all or even most of these to be added, (many look rather similar anyways) but if you would use some of the more interesting ones and those of the most important cities (Nürnberg, Augsburg, Aachen etc.) for the HRE's urban units, that would be really cool.)

Btw the Free Imperial Cities made up a significant base of support for the Emperor expecially in the later Middle Ages, as they depended on him for protection from the larger surrounding principalities and thus made some of the most important military contributions to the Emperor's army.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Those who were placed directly under the Empire (reichsunmittelbar) –for example, the imperial abbeys, counts, knights and cities – were part of the
‘king’s body’ and clung to the monarchy as a guarantee of independence and a
source of protection against the princes’ aspiration to subjugate them to their
territorial jurisdiction. These ‘immediate’ subjects of the Empire were often
concentrated on old crown lands which had been administered through bailiwicks (Landvogteien), notably those in Swabia and Alsace. By the fifteenth
century the cities, in particular, had succeeded in emancipating themselves
from the jurisdiction of the bailiffs, but their loyalty to the crown remained
intact. During the Hussite wars, for instance, several imperial cities and convents in Swabia responded willingly to Sigismund’s appeal for troops, but
insisted that they would serve under the bailiff only in his capacity as imperial
military commander. Broadly speaking, the regions of royal influence were
spread across central and southern Germany, particularly Franconia, southern
Hesse, the Middle and Upper Rhine, and parts of Swabia. In the Wetterau
north of Frankfurt/Main, for instance, lay a congeries of diminutive estates held by imperial courts, who formed a union of mutual protection in the early
fifteenth century. The imperial knights, whose corporate identity was recognised in a privilege from Sigismund in 1422, were concentrated in Franconia along the Main and its tributaries, in the Kraichgau between Rhine and Neckar, and throughout much of Swabia, where many imperial abbeys were also situated. The imperial and free cities, numbering around sixty-eight in 1500,1 were mainly located along the Middle and Upper Rhine (in Alsace, ten alone in the league of the Decapolis), above Lake Constance, in northern Württemberg and in Franconia. These regions may therefore be described as being ‘near to the king’ (königsnah). From them (as well as from their dynastic lands) the monarchs drew their courtiers and officials; to them, especially to the cities, they turned for troops and taxes.

The New Cambridge Medieval History Volume 7, c. 1415-c. 1500

[Knight2708]

So its been some time since we got an update on the faction, I really don't want to be too impatient, but it would be great to know when we can expect to see more and what the future plans regarding this faction are.

[Oliverkahn]

The Empire is pretty large, will there be different diplomatic statuses in the imperial estates, like the German duchies will be vassals while the Italian factions will be something different? just wondering

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

So its been some time since we got an update on the faction, I really don't want to be too impatient, but it would be great to know when we can expect to see more and what the future plans regarding this faction are.

Been waiting on some new assets. Several have been rigged, so I can start work on some of these things.

[Knight2708]

Been waiting on some new assets. Several have been rigged, so I can start work on some of these things.

Great, cant wait.