Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire (REVAMP)

[Archilles]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlacht_bei_Sempach

In the battle of Sempach in 1386 the austrian Knights fought dismounted against the swiss army!

I think the reasen were the helebards of the swiss army and their Formation - no horse would ride in this Formation!

THe Knights dismounted and then built a defense Formation with their Lances !!!! But they stayd in their heavy armor so the lighter troops of the swiss army had an essential Advantage and won the fight!

[Archilles]

What I ask myself is, if painted pavise shields were really used!

I can´t imagine, that a poor crossbowmen could effort such a great piece of medieval art! And if he could, I can´t imagine that he would use it for a fight, because it would be damaged under battle I think... a direct hit of an crossbow bolt and the shield would be damaged!
As far as I know, they were stored in the town arsenal and were painted with the town heraldry... and that would make no sense to paint them costly! What do you guys think?
I do a research for austrian shields (pavise) and I found a lot of them... but i can´t imagine someone would bring them to war! I think they belong to a rich men or something like this! We also have swords with diamants on them and we know they were only used for ... oartys

An other thing I ask myself is, if there were really pavise spearmen?

[KEA]

I can´t imagine, that a poor crossbowmen could effort such a great piece of medieval art! And if he could, I can´t imagine that he would use it for a fight, because it would be damaged under battle I think... a direct hit of an crossbow bolt and the shield would be damaged!

He might prefer the shield to be damaged instead of his chest?

As far as I know, they were stored in the town arsenal and were painted with the town heraldry... and that would make no sense to paint them costly! What do you guys think?

why not? A rich trading city could easily afford to do so. And having splendid painted shields can impress both your men and the enemy - what in return certainly is a good thing to have.

An other thing I ask myself is, if there were really pavise spearmen?

If so, they had to be seriously smaller than that



The Pavise usually were held by a second man or a frame attached to the ground, or worn on the back - rather useless for spearmen. There can be smaller, scutum-sized, pavises for hand-to-hand combat.

[Sarcasm_pt]

Rather useless for spearmen.

That's just plain wrong. There's no shortage of spearmen formations with very large pavise-type shields. From Achaemenids to Italian city-states, you take your pick. I would actually wager that solo pavised armed crossbowmen were less common than is represented in this mod...mixed formations were probably more the norm, with the spearmen taking the first lines.

[You_Guess_Who]

Seeing the heated debates here, I'd like to harness the heat to power our development. Currently, we're discussing building system that are attached into the unit recruitment system as well. One of the ideas thrown around was this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Settlements

Basically, I ripped a page from Linke's 1066, and simplify it to fit a larger setting and timeframe where more possibilities can happen.
(You can read it in more detail here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...gne-Mod/page12 )
Linke's idea is simply something we should borrow. Really, lots of 1066 ideas are great.


One of the problem of Post-M2 TW settlements, is the limited building slot; and nowhere it can be felt on minor settlements. This would feel even harsher in MKTW remembering Attila's map not representing medieval minor-major settlement position - so, in order for minor settlement to be able to compete with major settlements, how about combining buildings into the city? And in the same time, giving players choice of development as well as giving a bit of that M2 settlement division with some AoC taste. In short, I propose to divide the Minor Settlement Tree into:


- Feudal Castles
- Communal Town
- Religious/Ecclestiastical Domain


Feudal Castles are a throwback to old M2 military-specialized settlement. These Feudal Castles yields very small to nil income and growth because it goes to the Feudal Nobles, for exchange of military service to the king. On another side, it provides a big recruitment slot, and consumes little food because its mostly self-sufficient. Feudal Castles can get walls easier on lower tier than other kind of minor settlement (and if possible, assigned to edited Barbarian Settlement siege map that are less urban-looking).
From Castles, player can recruit 3 kinds of units from the settlement itself: Elite Noble Units, e.g. Knights very quickly for very cheap cost; Squires and Servants which are middle-quality units, hardy Frontierwatches, and large quantity of low-quality levied peasants.


Communal Town primarily yields great amount of income and growth, however it also consumes large quantities of food. The unit recruited from this kind of settlement are Communal Militias, which are better armed and more disciplined than feudal levies. However, Communal Town on all tiers only have one recruitment slot even though it provides a good amount of militia as garrison. Italian factions which in history depended on Communal Militia can have a trait that enables them to have extra recruitment slots.


Religious/Ecclesiastical Domains serves as City + Temple + Education Center + Hospice that yields Religious Conversion + Religious Happiness + Research Bonus + Sanitation at once. On higher development, Religious Militant units can be recruited from it.


2. Recruitment


Why noble units are very quick and cheap to train, you may ask? Because the income are used to arm themselves and their retinues, of course - And they've been training for war for since young age! You're not training and paying wage to a Knight - you remind them about the fief you gave to their family and their vow to you! Non-noble units are actually more expensive because you'll need to arm and train them, also because it reduce the number of men that could've worked instead.
Of course you cannot spam noble units, they are capped. This is tied to the flexible cap modding design, something tried back in S2: an effect that enables a faction to raise the unit cap can be tied to a building. So, the more Feudal Castle you own, the more noble unit you can recruit - this can be increased further by higher tier Castles or Tech. This system might be tied into Population scripting system if its ready, but even without Population scripts, the team can test the limited-but-available-early elite units that depend on settlements.


Talking about ordinary Military Buildings, so what are they for then, if unit types are decided form the settlement type? Well, Military Buildings such as Barracks/Armouries serves to enhance the core recruiting instead, e.g. reducing cost/adding recruitment slot/XP bonus and such. At some tech level, Military Buildings also unlocks the recruitment of non-noble professional soldiers. For Middle-Eastern factions, perhaps Slave Markets can reduce the cost/raise cap to elite Slave Soldiers?

Go ahead, I want to hear your opinion on that. Discuss it. Improve it. Suggest something. Shoot it down. Trash it. Your choice.

How about linking this historical roster discussion with possible actual gameplay system discussion, why not? Oh yeah, of course - keep the discussion strictly revolving HRE society because this is the HRE thread. If you want to comment something else, write in the suggestion thread.

[KEA]

A castle and a town should co-exist in one province. The TW concept of "A Province Ruled by its Capital" fits Antiquity but not Medieval Germany. The more common situation would have been the "province" being ruled by one or several feudal lords and the "capital" being a (semi-)independent political structure of its own. There were exceptions with lords firmly controlling the towns in their territories, but for this time frame it would be correct to say that, generally speaking, towns in Germany were more or less independent political actors. So it should be possible to build a "city-chain" of buildings and a "castle-chain" with both interacting in terms of boni and mali. Founding cities or granting cities more rights (that would be improving the city-chain) should be expensive but give a good boost in growth and economy. Improving the castle-chain would be rather cheap and give you feudal units. But maxing out both would seriously raise unrest in that province because the burghers and knights would start fighting each other.

Another specialty for Germany would be the prince-bishoprics. When the game starts, the Reichskirchensystem would already be dead, so no need to implement complex mechanisms where the player would be able to improve his bishoprics by granting them land. The bishops were feudal lords, with the difference that no one would be able to inherit these lands. Some provinces might be designated as being ruled by bishops (for example the archbishoprics Cologne, Trier and Mainz). That would make for some special rules.

I like the idea of making feudal units for free but capped (it not is entirely accurate because also feudal units were payed up to some degree, so you might think of giving them upkeep). You should then also have the ability to hire unlimited mercenary knights for a lot of money. Concerning militia: that should be tied to cities only (see discussion above).

[Visarion]

Is there any chance for a preview!?

[Archilles]

Here a little preview of austrian pavise shields I am working on to give my home faction a more elite look!

Some shields I used as a reference:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...436442e185.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...acdacfb8c2.jpg
http://pics.myarmoury.com/pavise10_s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...dfb159afe0.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Visarion]

Here a little preview of austrian pavise shields I am working on to give my home faction a more elite look!

Some shields I used as a reference:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...436442e185.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...acdacfb8c2.jpg
http://pics.myarmoury.com/pavise10_s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...dfb159afe0.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ty Archilles! Keep up the good work! Any chance for a complete Swiss preview!?

[Knight2708]

Here a little preview of austrian pavise shields I am working on to give my home faction a more elite look!

Some shields I used as a reference:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...436442e185.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...acdacfb8c2.jpg
http://pics.myarmoury.com/pavise10_s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...dfb159afe0.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So I was just wondering, are you still working on Austria? Because those pavise look really good and I would like to to know whether we can expect to see some more of the faction.

[Maroni_The_Bat2]

Very nice shields! This faction gonna be great. Good job A.rchilles

[Minnesinger]

That's actually very good-looking !

[Slytacular]

Not bad looking at all! You should stop using my horrible and disgusting breastplate that extends past the hips. I regret creating that asset. I'm working on some better looking stuff I can show you the next time you're on Steam Chat

[You_Guess_Who]

Landsknechts. Was denkt ihr?:

Why not request for puffy shirts and puffy hats as well to Sly?

Here a little preview of austrian pavise shields I am working on to give my home faction a more elite look!

Some shields I used as a reference:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...436442e185.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...acdacfb8c2.jpg
http://pics.myarmoury.com/pavise10_s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...dfb159afe0.jpg

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Those pictures make me want to rub my hands on the canvas and sniff the tempera and oil of those shields

[Minnesinger]

I found some pictures that could be relevant concerning XVth century's equipment of german knights and soldiers; many of theses helmets, weapons, gauntlets ... are already in the mod, apart from a few details, anyway I'd like to share them. All of them are from paintings.

Some of the panels of the Passion of Karlsruhe, painted around 1435-1450 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

An illumination of the Speculum Humanae Salvationis actually conserved at National Library of Madrid, dated from 1432 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.edilan.es/hojas/0000e.htm

Some Konrad Witz (around 1400-1445/46) paintings depicting knights in armour :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The next ones are from flemish painters but I think it's relevant to share them for Flanders in XVth century is strongly connected to german principalities.

Some paintings on Saint Ursula Shrine, by Hans Memling in 1489 (currently preserved in the Memling Museum, Bruges) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Diptych of Munich by Hans Memling, painted around 1490 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

One of the panels of The Ghent Altarpiece by the brothers van Eyck, finished in 1432 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Of course the iconic gothic armours should be inserted in the mod, sorry modders if you find me difficult

[KEA]

Fantastic find. In particular the insane amount of details in clothing to be found on the Passion plates. It also shows how well armored the soldiers of the Late Middle Ages were: even men displayed as humble as not wearing hoses, having shoes of straw, or even no shoes at all, at least wear mail and a helmet. That's a huge difference to the 12th Century where only knights and other elites could afford armor and common soldiers were an easy game for them. Something that's often overlooked when discussing 14th and 15th Century military history and the "decline of the knights".

[Heisenburrg]

Hey Fawn. Do you have some new stuff in stock? ^^

[robtim92]

Hey fawn, I was wondering what the final verdict on the cloaks and mantles was. I think your units look good with the exception of those things, so i was just curious.

[Knight2708]

Not sure whether you have seen these already, but this Wikipedia page has the coats of arms of almost all of the Free Imperial Cities: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_...A4dte#Heraldik

(Just to be clear I obviously dont expect all or even most of these to be added, (many look rather similar anyways) but if you would use some of the more interesting ones and those of the most important cities (Nürnberg, Augsburg, Aachen etc.) for the HRE's urban units, that would be really cool.)

Btw the Free Imperial Cities made up a significant base of support for the Emperor expecially in the later Middle Ages, as they depended on him for protection from the larger surrounding principalities and thus made some of the most important military contributions to the Emperor's army.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Those who were placed directly under the Empire (reichsunmittelbar) –for example, the imperial abbeys, counts, knights and cities – were part of the
‘king’s body’ and clung to the monarchy as a guarantee of independence and a
source of protection against the princes’ aspiration to subjugate them to their
territorial jurisdiction. These ‘immediate’ subjects of the Empire were often
concentrated on old crown lands which had been administered through bailiwicks (Landvogteien), notably those in Swabia and Alsace. By the fifteenth
century the cities, in particular, had succeeded in emancipating themselves
from the jurisdiction of the bailiffs, but their loyalty to the crown remained
intact. During the Hussite wars, for instance, several imperial cities and convents in Swabia responded willingly to Sigismund’s appeal for troops, but
insisted that they would serve under the bailiff only in his capacity as imperial
military commander. Broadly speaking, the regions of royal influence were
spread across central and southern Germany, particularly Franconia, southern
Hesse, the Middle and Upper Rhine, and parts of Swabia. In the Wetterau
north of Frankfurt/Main, for instance, lay a congeries of diminutive estates held by imperial courts, who formed a union of mutual protection in the early
fifteenth century. The imperial knights, whose corporate identity was recognised in a privilege from Sigismund in 1422, were concentrated in Franconia along the Main and its tributaries, in the Kraichgau between Rhine and Neckar, and throughout much of Swabia, where many imperial abbeys were also situated. The imperial and free cities, numbering around sixty-eight in 1500,1 were mainly located along the Middle and Upper Rhine (in Alsace, ten alone in the league of the Decapolis), above Lake Constance, in northern Württemberg and in Franconia. These regions may therefore be described as being ‘near to the king’ (königsnah). From them (as well as from their dynastic lands) the monarchs drew their courtiers and officials; to them, especially to the cities, they turned for troops and taxes.

The New Cambridge Medieval History Volume 7, c. 1415-c. 1500

[Knight2708]

So its been some time since we got an update on the faction, I really don't want to be too impatient, but it would be great to know when we can expect to see more and what the future plans regarding this faction are.