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Thread: Next 2 faction slots

  1. #41

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    What's wrong with the Yuezhi is that we already have the Saka Rauka. That area of the map is already crowded faction-wise with little population or other resources present. Furthermore, they weren't on our map in 272BC.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post

    For the remaining faction, now that is an interesting question. Why not a declining Scythia faction that is halfway between being a nomadic horse archer faction and one that has taken an interest in settling the cities of the Black Sea littoral?
    What about Bosphorus (Kimmerios Bosporos) ? You don't like them?
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    What's wrong with the Yuezhi is that we already have the Saka Rauka. That area of the map is already crowded faction-wise with little population or other resources present. Furthermore, they weren't on our map in 272BC.
    Makes sense. It's going to be harder than I expected to come up with new faction ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    What about Bosphorus (Kimmerios Bosporos) ? You don't like them?
    They're a neat faction. At the same time, the northern shores of the Black Sea could use some more flavor. It could be an interesting opportunity to explore Scythian culture more in depth as well as the native settled cultures in the region.
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  4. #44
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    :

    "Our journey has been long, the dangers great..."

    EDIT:
    "Dear Darios, thank you for your input. Europa Barbarorum has consistently sought to promote the contribution of the Celtic speaking peoples and the La Tène culture to Europe as, for at least half a millenia in continental Europe, such communities represent a major component of the archaeological and ethnographical record. We have never sought to exaggerate the role of the Celts, rather that the geographical scope and longevity of their culture means we cannot feasibly ignore them.

    With regards the Galatians in Egypt and the Seleucid realm, this is not too far from the truth. People termed Galatoi represented a significant mercenary group in both the Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms; indeed we have evidence for such peoples as far east as the Volga River and Caspian Sea. The claim that modern Egyptians might be descended from Galatian mercenaries must be treated with caution, and in Europa Barbarorum II we would be less inclined to support this idea.

    Thank you for your support and I hope you are enjoying Europa Barbarorum II

    -Brennus, Celtic and British faction coordinator."
    Last edited by Cohors_Evocata; August 12, 2016 at 11:00 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post

    "Dear Darios, thank you for your input. Europa Barbarorum has consistently sought to promote the contribution of the Celtic speaking peoples and the La Tène culture to Europe as, for at least half a millenia in continental Europe, such communities represent a major component of the archaeological and ethnographical record. We have never sought to exaggerate the role of the Celts, rather that the geographical scope and longevity of their culture means we cannot feasibly ignore them.

    With regards the Galatians in Egypt and the Seleucid realm, this is not too far from the truth. People termed Galatoi represented a significant mercenary group in both the Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms; indeed we have evidence for such peoples as far east as the Volga River and Caspian Sea. The claim that modern Egyptians might be descended from Galatian mercenaries must be treated with caution, and in Europa Barbarorum II we would be less inclined to support this idea.

    Thank you for your support and I hope you are enjoying Europa Barbarorum II

    -Brennus, Celtic and British faction coordinator."
    Not wanting to go off topic, I ask for forgiveness from the other posters in this thread as I am aware that I have temporarily hijacked it.

    I am curious to see your evidence for Volga and Caspian Celts. Even if I have no academic proof to offer that states that it is not true, I do find it to be very incredulous to believe that Celts ever lived so far east. I would not mind being proven wrong however. Even the idea of Celts in Galicia seems to be stretching it in my books.

    I have been following EB's impressive research for years and while I can agree with the vast majority of it, I have noticed a trend that often involves trying to make Iranians, Greeks, etc into long lost Northwestern Europeans. A major consequence stemming from EB's depiction of Celts was that it inspired CA's subsequent depiction of "barbarian" Europe in Rome II. Central and Eastern Europe ended up depicted as generic Gauls stretching from Rhaetia to Thrace to the edge of the Pontic steppe. Thrace in fact ended up with more Gallic factions than Thracian. Inspired by EB's previous work, CA decided that it was fine to depict entities such as the Tribalii, Bastarnae, etc as purely Gallic.

    Don't get me wrong, I love EB's depiction of "barbarian" Europe and has had a positive influence on the way people in general see pre-Roman Iron Age Europe, but the Celtic stuff has always come off as a bit over the top, and not only to me. I have friends who tend to joke and poke fun at EB's love of Celts and "Indo-Europeans."

    Just something to keep in mind I guess. The Belgae would honestly be a fine addition to EB II.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    I can't see much viable options. Most possible factions either have no proper starting place or no sources to create even the most basic roster. Belgae is seemingly on the list of the team, their starting point is good enough. I wouldn't play though, it wouldn't add anything new to my taste. Hellenes forever.

    For the second faction, an African or Steppen faction is appearently not considered. No new faction to Britain as well. And a Scandinavian one would be too far fetched.

    I would sar Scordisci or Dardanians, they seem relevant enough. May be a southern Germanic faction?

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    Not wanting to go off topic, I ask for forgiveness from the other posters in this thread as I am aware that I have temporarily hijacked it.

    I am curious to see your evidence for Volga and Caspian Celts. Even if I have no academic proof to offer that states that it is not true, I do find it to be very incredulous to believe that Celts ever lived so far east. I would not mind being proven wrong however. Even the idea of Celts in Galicia seems to be stretching it in my books.

    I have been following EB's impressive research for years and while I can agree with the vast majority of it, I have noticed a trend that often involves trying to make Iranians, Greeks, etc into long lost Northwestern Europeans. A major consequence stemming from EB's depiction of Celts was that it inspired CA's subsequent depiction of "barbarian" Europe in Rome II. Central and Eastern Europe ended up depicted as generic Gauls stretching from Rhaetia to Thrace to the edge of the Pontic steppe. Thrace in fact ended up with more Gallic factions than Thracian. Inspired by EB's previous work, CA decided that it was fine to depict entities such as the Tribalii, Bastarnae, etc as purely Gallic.

    Don't get me wrong, I love EB's depiction of "barbarian" Europe and has had a positive influence on the way people in general see pre-Roman Iron Age Europe, but the Celtic stuff has always come off as a bit over the top, and not only to me. I have friends who tend to joke and poke fun at EB's love of Celts and "Indo-Europeans."

    Just something to keep in mind I guess. The Belgae would honestly be a fine addition to EB II.
    From Brennus again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brennus
    Hello again. In terms of evidence for Celtic peoples that far east we have a variety of data. These includes finds of La Tène type Montefortino helmets from Ukraine, depictions of Celtic style arms on the coins of Leucon II of the Bosporan Kingdom, a stone relief from Crimea depicting eastern La Tène type weapons (examples of which have been recovered from graves in Romania and Bulgaria, as well as a relief from Pergamon), three La Tène type chariot burials from Moldova (with parallels in Bohemia, Romania and Bulgaria... not to mention the abundance of finds from the Middle Rhine and southern Germany), a terracotta figure of a Galatian warrior from the eastern shores of the Caspian Sea, and accounts of a Celtic embassy to visit Alexander the Great in Babylon. I am happy to provide some images and sources if you like.

    In terms of CAs depictions of non-Celtic central and European cultures as being essentially Gallic I would offer two points. 1. Of course we have no control of CAs decisions, hence we work on EB. 2. In some cases this is not too far from the truth; many non-Celtic cultures (e.g. Rhaetians, Ligurians, Veneti, the early Przeworsk culture) show a large uptake of La Tène cultural traits, especially in La Tène B2 (c.275-250BC). With the new Celtic armour reforms this is something we will attempt to better depict and explain to players. Additionally I am planning to re-concept certain Celtic units, so as to better illustrate the difference between the western and eastern branches of the La Tène culture.

    On a more negative note, one of my predecessors had a rather un-critical view of the Celts; hence a tendency to create this image of a monotonous Celtic culture across much of Europe.
    To this I can only add that EB II is not EB I. Much has been redone or rejected, the former mod is no blueprint for what EB II will eventually become.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    I can't see much viable options. Most possible factions either have no proper starting place or no sources to create even the most basic roster. Belgae is seemingly on the list of the team, their starting point is good enough. I wouldn't play though, it wouldn't add anything new to my taste. Hellenes forever.

    For the second faction, an African or Steppen faction is appearently not considered. No new faction to Britain as well. And a Scandinavian one would be too far fetched.

    I would sar Scordisci or Dardanians, they seem relevant enough. May be a southern Germanic faction?
    Would personally love to see an African or Central Asian faction, but there are some severe practical issues with most, if not all of the suggestions I know of...

    On another note, no commentary on my little teaser above?
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    My thanks in advance.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    If I can add my salt, there is an article about the subject of the Celts in the extreme eastern Europe.

    Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region
    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/20...pontic-region/
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    As there are factions that mix eastern and Hellenic culture like Pontos and Nabateans, it would be nice to see a faction that mixes Hellenism with a “barbarian” faction such as the Thracians from Seuthopolis or the Odrysian kingdom who´s nobility had already adopted Hellenic customs and language before the invasion of the Celts. They could be like Pontos in the ability to use the Polis already built or even have the possibility to turn completely to Hellenism.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    In a perfect world, the map would extend even further East and have 20+ more factions over there, but that's obviously not going to happen. :p

    Would the team consider using one of the slots for a "swap faction" as in RS2? Letting a player opt to play Syracuse, Massalia or another "mini" faction.

  11. #51
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    If I can add my salt, there is an article about the subject of the Celts in the extreme eastern Europe.
    Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region
    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/20...pontic-region/
    Quote Originally Posted by Cohors_Evocata View Post
    Hello again. In terms of evidence for Celtic peoples that far east we have a variety of data. These includes finds of La Tène type Montefortino helmets from Ukraine, depictions of Celtic style arms on the coins of Leucon II of the Bosporan Kingdom, a stone relief from Crimea depicting eastern La Tène type weapons (examples of which have been recovered from graves in Romania and Bulgaria, as well as a relief from Pergamon), three La Tène type chariot burials from Moldova (with parallels in Bohemia, Romania and Bulgaria... not to mention the abundance of finds from the Middle Rhine and southern Germany), a terracotta figure of a Galatian warrior from the eastern shores of the Caspian Sea, and accounts of a Celtic embassy to visit Alexander the Great in Babylon. I am happy to provide some images and sources if you like.

    In terms of CAs depictions of non-Celtic central and European cultures as being essentially Gallic I would offer two points. 1. Of course we have no control of CAs decisions, hence we work on EB. 2. In some cases this is not too far from the truth; many non-Celtic cultures (e.g. Rhaetians, Ligurians, Veneti, the early Przeworsk culture) show a large uptake of La Tène cultural traits, especially in La Tène B2 (c.275-250BC). With the new Celtic armour reforms this is something we will attempt to better depict and explain to players. Additionally I am planning to re-concept certain Celtic units, so as to better illustrate the difference between the western and eastern branches of the La Tène culture.

    On a more negative note, one of my predecessors had a rather un-critical view of the Celts; hence a tendency to create this image of a monotonous Celtic culture across much of Europe.
    Interesting article. It goes into very good detail concerning finds that I had already been previously aware of. The finds on the Upper Tisza clearly point towards Celtic settlement in the region though I find that the author is grasping at straws in detailing the finds in Crimea and in Scythia, labeling the scarce La Tene finds there with the buzzword "Celtic." The Montefortino helmets could have been transplanted there by the Romans, the Celtic coins found at Tyras/Belgorod-Dniestrovsky could have easily been brought there by traders from other Greek apoikia such as Histria, and the swords could have been from Galatian mercenaries brought over by the Pontic king or the simple result of trading and commerce as Celtic longswords were especially prized in the ancient world.

    The Bastarnae are one of the more mysterious entities of the ancient world and I feel that the term Celto-Scythian attempts to oversimplify a complicated phenomenon. Their ethnic name for example, is more than likely Germanic or Iranian and as far as I have read, there has been no discernible distinctions between Bastarnae and Dacian finds in the region. The author could have just as easily termed them Daco-Germanic without raising an eyebrow. Furthermore, I find it very hard to take Roman writers seriously in designating the ethnicity of various barbarian cultures. For example, taking Tacitus at face value is like stating that Baltic peoples did not exist, they were simply Germans or Celts.

    Was there residual La Tene influence in the region? Definitely, but it should not be overstated in an attempt to plaster Eastern Europe with cookie cutter Gauls. Any Celtic influence in the region was vastly overshadowed by Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian, Greek, and Scytho-Sarmatian elements.

    Brennos, I will say this however, my opinion of Europa Barbarorum does stem almost entirely from the first version as I only spent a brief period playing EB2 last year before feeling "bored/exhausted" by the 270 BC scenario (due to no fault of your own. It's more the fault of RTW, R2, etc) and uninstalling the mod. However, your vast knowledge and attention to detail does encourage me to check in on EB 2 to check out what's new and what has changed.

    In EB1 I loved the units that were created depicting the Rhaetians, Liguarians, Veneti, etc as heavily influenced by La Tene culture but also culturally unique with various Italic and Illyrian elements. Please keep up the good work in depicting eastern Celts because I find the mix of cultural elements influencing Central Europe during this timeframe to be a very fascinating topic. As soon as I finish downloading and installing EB2, I plan on starting a Boii campaign.
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    If I can add my salt, there is an article about the subject of the Celts in the extreme eastern Europe.

    Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region
    https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/20...pontic-region/
    I'm (and this is me, not Brennus talking) personally not fond of that blog. Whilst trying to do some research on Tylis and where it may have been located. I found the arguments presented to be wholly unconvincing (i.e. Tylis means "hill", so any hill will do and here it is). On the other hand, I'm no archeologist, so make of that what you wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Ratti View Post
    As there are factions that mix eastern and Hellenic culture like Pontos and Nabateans, it would be nice to see a faction that mixes Hellenism with a “barbarian” faction such as the Thracians from Seuthopolis or the Odrysian kingdom who´s nobility had already adopted Hellenic customs and language before the invasion of the Celts. They could be like Pontos in the ability to use the Polis already built or even have the possibility to turn completely to Hellenism.
    Thracians (Odrysians ftw!) would again be very cool to have, but would have little to no room to expand, hemmed in as they are between Makedonia, Epeiros and the Getai...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    Brennos, I will say this however, my opinion of Europa Barbarorum does stem almost entirely from the first version as I only spent a brief period playing EB2 last year before feeling "bored/exhausted" by the 270 BC scenario (due to no fault of your own. It's more the fault of RTW, R2, etc) and uninstalling the mod. However, your vast knowledge and attention to detail does encourage me to check in on EB 2 to check out what's new and what has changed.

    In EB1 I loved the units that were created depicting the Rhaetians, Liguarians, Veneti, etc as heavily influenced by La Tene culture but also culturally unique with various Italic and Illyrian elements. Please keep up the good work in depicting eastern Celts because I find the mix of cultural elements influencing Central Europe during this timeframe to be a very fascinating topic. As soon as I finish downloading and installing EB2, I plan on starting a Boii campaign.
    Ignoring any discussion I'm not knowledgeable enough to step in, please keep in mind that we're only over about half of the units planned. The Illyrian and Thracian regionals are mostly, if not wholly finished for example, but the Sauromatae and Getai are far from that state and other regionals for what I'll broadly call "Eastern Europe" are also missing. Note that this isn't bias from our side; Arabia, Central Asia and large parts of "barbarian" Europe are also lacking in regionals (the "civilized" factions have received a lot of attention over the years, perhaps too much if you ask me).

    Hope you'll enjoy your playthrough nonetheless. [emoji144]
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    My thanks in advance.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    That feeling when there's an interesting discussion from which you could learn something, but you too lazy to read.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlack103 View Post
    In a perfect world, the map would extend even further East and have 20+ more factions over there, but that's obviously not going to happen. :p

    Would the team consider using one of the slots for a "swap faction" as in RS2? Letting a player opt to play Syracuse, Massalia or another "mini" faction.
    Well, seeing the ethno-linguistic shift of Central Asia live on the mod would surely be interesting. I would start with Xiognu and push everyone westward to see what happens

  15. #55

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBlack103 View Post
    Would the team consider using one of the slots for a "swap faction" as in RS2? Letting a player opt to play Syracuse, Massalia or another "mini" faction.
    No, I think we'd have pistols at dawn and bloody murder backstage if someone suggested giving up a slot for a full faction.

  16. #56
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Playing EB2 right now as Kimmerios Bosporos and having a good time. Who wrote the "travel log" for Alazonea region? Having traveled much through Podolia over the past couple of years, I can say that it is a thing of real beauty!
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    Playing EB2 right now as Kimmerios Bosporos and having a good time. Who wrote the "travel log" for Alazonea region? Having traveled much through Podolia over the past couple of years, I can say that it is a thing of real beauty!
    I always read province description every time I conquer a new one, there are still many that lack a description though, I hope they finish all descriptions ^^

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Yeah, instead of a new faction (of which would meet most criteria for this mod Ive broken my head over) many factions and regionals need fleshing out and have to be added to. I cant barely wait for Saka Cataphracts and German regionals !

  19. #59

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Personally think there's strong potential for an additional faction to represent one of the Greek cities in southern Italy at the start of the campaign, perhaps Syracuse may be the best. For one thing, it's pretty cool. We may have no need of a reason number-two. You're all working hard I know. Keep the shield-wall tight. ~Bobsy

  20. #60

    Default Re: Next 2 faction slots

    Between Epeiros, Carthage and Rome? Good luck with that.

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