[CAMPAIGN] Split Army (WIP)

[Causeless]

When this feature is finished, would you consider releasing it as a standalone mod? Vanilla Attila could definitely need the ability to split armies

There's no guarantee this feature will ever be finished and be playable, in either AE or as a standalone mod.

The scripter who created this feature left the team, and as I understand it, it wasn't complete anyways. I may look into writing my own implementation some time in the future but I've not done anything there yet - there's far more important things that need to be done just now.

Frankly I think showing off unfinished features like this is generally a bad idea. It raises expectations when it might not actually be practically possible to implement it in a working manner.

[Franco_Nico]

I would really like to see this implemented in the future, maybe after release and when the important things are done. Mainly because we know that legions had some kind of autonomy in campaigns, often some legios were settled aside of the main army and issued with certain tasks. I actually planned to play with armies of 12 or so imperial legionaries consisting of 3 historic legios with their respective eagle, 3 in each army, and interchange or split them as wish. It kind of adds something imo, but if it's not possible I guess is ok, it doesn't have a really great impact. There may be problems in the generals pool after you split many times, I don't know. There is more important task tbh, so this should not be a priority anyway.

[Causeless]

I would really like to see this implemented in the future, maybe after release and when the important things are done. Mainly because we know that legions had some kind of autonomy in campaigns, often some legios were settled aside of the main army and issued with certain tasks. I actually planned to play with armies of 12 or so imperial legionaries consisting of 3 historic legios with their respective eagle, 3 in each army, and interchange or split them as wish. It kind of adds something imo, but if it's not possible I guess is ok, it doesn't have a really great impact. There may be problems in the generals pool after you split many times, I don't know. There is more important task tbh, so this should not be a priority anyway.

The thing is, the progress of this feature probably seems further along than it actually is. There's a whole bunch of issues which would need to be figured out, both in technical terms and design terms, before this could be implemented.

Especially with short videos and images, people tend to imagine the supporting things they don't see in the video as being almost complete, when in reality it's the opposite, and the things that aren't shown off are probably not implemented whatsoever.

There's a lot of things that need to be considered here:

• Should splitting an army cost money? You're effectively getting a free unit out of it, so that would make sense.
• How does this free unit play into the manpower system? If it requires manpower then you could only split in friendly territory, which obviously isn't ideal. D̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶p̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶s̶y̶s̶t̶e̶m̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶s̶ ̶(̶M̶P̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶r̶t̶)̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶p̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶e̶n̶e̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶t̶ ̶t̶y̶p̶e̶s̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶q̶u̶e̶.̶ (late update scratch that, I think I've thought of a solution by just giving that region free manpower for the applicable unit upon a split, though may have some MP complexities)
• Should the amount of times an army be split be limited? Would general traits or abilities affect this?
• If general traits and abilities have an effect on splitting, what happens if a general is replaced in a force? What happens to the existing splits? Do they suffer attrition?
• If these are limited in any way, we'll need to add validation for the button etc and relevant UI explaining why the split cannot happen
• How do you re-combine the army? Is it possible to remove a force entirely via script once the other units have been merged back into the main force?
• Should split forces be limited to stay within a certain distance of the main force? Should split forces be able to still recruit etc? How easy is it to create these limitations via script?
• How difficult will it be to communicate the split across MP to another player to ensure MP compatibility?
• What happens if the main force is destroyed while it has active split forces?
• What happens if a civil war happens? Do all split armies go with the main force?
• Do split armies count as part of a faction's army cap? If not, can that even be manipulated via script?

Really a quick WIP video showing that the bare minimum of a concept is viable is entirely a mistake to show. It's an interesting concept but the actual effort that goes into it is far, far, far more than meets the eye initially.

Frankly I'm concerned enough with trying to get manpower working given the massive limitations in Attila's scripting system. I'm not even sure manpower will be complete in time for release, and so I'm trying to ensure that the mechanics by the rest of the team will work even in lieu of manpower. Given this state of affairs there's really no time to even investigate other features too deeply.

[Franco_Nico]

The thing is, the progress of this feature probably seems further ...

Yeah, i see you concentrate on the big picture and the script plausibility of the feature haha. I guess we just got sucked by the shiny feature and forgot how complex the mechanic is and how difficult it is to implement with existing features. This should obviously be even considered or just discussed in a very far future, long after initial releases and stable releases.

[Jakoporeeno]

Sigh, I don't know what CA was thinking of when they made the general recruitment pool. If only they had the common sense to think that the player might want to send one or two units from the motherland to the frontline instead of having to send back the whole army and merge only to have to go back to the frontline again. Or that the player might want to keep a unit or two in an otherwise defenseless city. But of course that would require basic thought

[ABH2]

I do understand CA's thought process there as late games tended to become quite tedious with all the small little armies moving around. It also seemed to harm the AI which would often divide forces and not concentrate them. But I still preferred it myself to the current limited system.

[Totalknight]

WaiT what!! This feature will no longer be in the mod???!!! damn it, why people start something and then leave.....

[Petellius]

It's a mod, not a company, no one gets paid and everyone does this in their free time (of which we all have very little)

[Causeless]

WaiT what!! This feature will no longer be in the mod???!!! damn it, why people start something and then leave.....

The feature almost definitely wouldn't be in the mod even if Hardballer stayed.

He only implemented the bare minimum required for the video, but the mechanic was completely unusable in-game. Implementing what's shown in the video isn't difficult whatsoever - it's fairly simple in fact. However, what was shown in the video is probably only 5% of the actual work that would need to be done for a working system. Look at my post above for all the things we'd need to do to have this mechanic in the mod. It's unclear if developing this bare-minimum prototype into a fully working mechanic would ever be possible.

[T-Duke]

It's a bit strange anyway that the first sticky thread of this sub-forum is about a feature that won't be in the mod... is it so complex to remove the thread?

[Causeless]

It's a bit strange anyway that the first sticky thread of this sub-forum is about a feature that won't be in the mod... is it so complex to remove the thread?

People can be proud of their proof-of-concepts and want to show them even if they don't work. I don't want to devalue what Hardballer has done here - it's a great idea even if it hasn't yet (or maybe ever will) come to fruition.

I don't think the thread ought to be removed, but being unstickied makes sense to me.

[imanube]

I feel like the issues you raised could be thought through pretty easily. I dont know about how hard the coding part would be but u could just make the captain a really weak unit or a unit with like 5 men. No relation to manpower. No relation to general attributes. If the general rebels the captains stay loyal to you or also have a loyalty feature maybe if its 3 they go with the rebellious general and if its over that they dont. Then make it so that units with a captain cant replenish so they die out evenually if not merged to a general. If the parent army dies then it can merge with a different parent army or die out. If you merge back in the split army and dont disband the captain he is useless anyways because he is so weak. No money cost.

I know u guys are buisy tho. Need to learn how to mod.

[Causeless]

I feel like the issues you raised could be thought through pretty easily. I dont know about how hard the coding part would be but u could just make the captain a really weak unit or a unit with like 5 men. No relation to manpower. No relation to general attributes. If the general rebels the captains stay loyal to you or also have a loyalty feature maybe if its 3 they go with the rebellious general and if its over that they dont. Then make it so that units with a captain cant replenish so they die out evenually if not merged to a general. If the parent army dies then it can merge with a different parent army or die out. If you merge back in the split army and dont disband the captain he is useless anyways because he is so weak. No money cost.

I know u guys are buisy tho. Need to learn how to mod.

The coding part is the primary issue

A lot of the issues I raised fall under the "I hope scripting can touch this" realm of things.

I do like your suggestions, however! If they are possible it'd be a nice and pretty clean way of doing things.

[imanube]

The coding part is the primary issue

A lot of the issues I raised fall under the "I hope scripting can touch this" realm of things.

I do like your suggestions, however! If they are possible it'd be a nice and pretty clean way of doing things.

I see. Thanks! I literally bought attila for this mod lol. So happy people are working on a conversion.

[Maetharin]

I know this thread is pretty old, and usually wouldn’t revive sth of this age,
but would it be possible to use this or sth like this to create a supply depot system like I wrote in this post?

[Hohenstaufen234]

This shalle be interesting!