(OLD) Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Holy Roman Empire

[Ltd.]

Holy Roman Empire

lat. Sacrum Romanum Imperium






UNITS


Early Era



Knights

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The Emperor and his guards

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High Era



Knights

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The Emperor and his guards

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Late Era



Knights

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The Emperor (Sigismund of Luxemburg) and his guards

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Dismounted MAA

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The Duchy of Bavaria





UNITS


Early Era



Knights

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The Duke and his guards

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High Era



Knights

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The Duke and his guards

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Late Era



Knights

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The Duke of Bavaria and his guards

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Dismounted MAA

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The Duchy of Brabant







UNITS


Early Era



Pike Sergeants

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Knights

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The Duke and his guards

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High Era



Knights

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The Duke and his guards

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Late Era



Knights

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The Duke of Brabant and his guards

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Dismounted MAA

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UNITS for all German duchies


Early Era



Mounted Sergeants

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Mounted Crossbowmen

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Urban militia

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Sergeant Spearmen

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Sergeants / Heavy Infantry

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Armored Sergeants

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Peasant crossbowmen

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Heavy Crossbowmen

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High Era



Mounted Crossbowmen

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Mounted Sergeants

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Armored Sergeants

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Pikemen

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Heavy crossbowmen

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Late Era



Mounted Crossbowmen

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Pikemen

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Handgunners

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Please note: as always, this is not the final nor the complete roster

[FrozenmenSS]

[KLAssurbanipal]

Excellent as always, but I suggest to add more details for some shields.

+ rep

[hessam]

Holy mother of Jehoshaphat!!! You better release an update for custom battle soon or we're gonna organize a mass suicide in a few days!!!

[Beregond]

fantastic! love the surcoats, units are looking splendorous.

one small thing, I suppose some shields' (esp the ones that are mono-coloured) brightness could be toned down

[hessam]

agreed! those white shields reflect the light like shiny steel

[zsimmortal]

Very nice. Judging by the fact you specifically mentioned German duchies, does that mean the non-German minor factions of the Empire will have their own regional/individual units? I'm not sure which are meant to be playable, but I'm talking about Dauphiné, Provence, Savoy, Genoa, Pisa and the Lombard League?

[+Marius+]

The bucket helmets look disgusting.

Everything else is magnificent

[Teutonic]

Effing awesome!

[Oliverkahn]

could we have a standard bearer for the other units as well. Otherwise awesome work

[Ltd.]

could we have a standard bearer for the other units as well. Otherwise awesome work

I'm affraid that falls under the category " this is not the final nor the complete roster " .
I'll be leaving town this weekend for three weeks, so this roster as it looks now is what I had time for. . There will be additions later, of course
Also, to answer your other question in the "preview collection" thread: no, there will be no dismounted knights for the german factions. Generally speaking those dismounted MAA fulfil the same role for the late era, more or less, and for the earlier eras there are heavy sergeants who should be able to deal with anything that is not on horse.

Btw, what is strange about the sergeant units' shields ?

[Oliverkahn]

I'm affraid that falls under the category " this is not the final nor the complete roster " .
I'll be leaving town this weekend for three weeks, so this roster as it looks now is what I had time for. . There will be additions later, of course
Also, to answer your other question in the "preview collection" thread: no, there will be no dismounted knights for the german factions. Generally speaking those dismounted MAA fulfil the same role for the late era, more or less, and for the earlier eras there are heavy sergeants who should be able to deal with anything that is not on horse.

Btw, what is strange about the sergeant units' shields ?

That is what i suspected, and okay to the dismounted knights question.

Nothing, it was just a thread comment which i had made in too much haste. It looks awesome, and no complaints here.

[BalrogOfMorgoth]

Those dukes look gorgeous!

[warman222]

Indeed there are things to be added. We also intend to add Saxony and Austria to this selection of German factions. I do believe a couple of the Italian HRE vassals will be playable though we need to clarify which ones, Genoa is a given if nothing else.

[Filips Augustus]

Looking awesome guys!!

I agree about the shields; it would be nice to see some emblems or symbols of the HRE (and it's duchies) on the shields of units like sergeants or sergeant spearmen. Some shields are just plainly one colour, which is a pretty much waisted opportunity to add in something cool.

Also I'm pretty sad about no dismounted knights; they look very pretty in close combat, why not just add them like for France and England ? I understand that the MAA fullfill their role somehow, but just for esthetics it would be great to see them in battle. Unless you manage to have the AI use the dismount ability ofcourse, then you won't hear me complain xD.

[Heisenburrg]

Hi, first of all really, really nice units! I am absolutely excited that hre is in work now!
I know, that the roster isn´t ready yet, but exactly for this reason i´ve some suggestions (btw, Bavaria is simply perfect );

1. Color and shields:
As stated above a tweaking of some colors and symbols on shields would be cool. A few colors (Hre late
era knight´s coats, Hre late era emperor coats with officer coat and Hre late era MAA) are too garishly. A
bit darker or "worner" (exactly like early era knights) would be just fine.

Also the shield symbols would need some polishing. Hre had dozents of states, so shield symbols
should be well varied (Like crusader states). For example Hre late era knights and duke, as like
as brabant knights and duke have too similar symbols (only symbols, black-yellow-colors for example are
perfect). But main point are the "universal" units and officers. Their shield colors and samples look
really out of place. I know you have no time for too abstract symbols, but eventually you find some here (or maybe make
all shields like the high era mounted sergeants)

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Really universal symbols, only from free hre cities

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2. Units:
What I noticed was that hre has (until now) no remarkable "german" units (I mean there´re just "standard" knights, sergeants, MAA and so on)
France has it´s Scots guard and Voulgiers, Sweden has Bondir, Huscarls and Hirdmen, England has its specific Longbows and Hobilars...
My suggestion for Hre is that it has access to some regional units from it´s vassals (for example "Thüringische Burgherren" -medium/heavy infantry- from Thuringia) or to simply add some specific
units to universal/hre roster.
My ideas for additional units are; Reichsritter (dismounted troops with shields and maces/axes/swords + black-yellow-colors and eagle-symbol, hre specific),
Lehensherren (medium mounted/dismounted troopswith medium, but noble armor, universal),Vasallen/Vogte (medium infantry, weapon doesn´t matter, universal, Deutschritter (mounted or/ dismounted
elite troops, like your units from the teutonic order, hre specific) andSchildknappen (engl. Squire, rather light troops with inexpensive equipment)

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For "Lehensherren" like this;

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For "Vasallen or Vogte" like this;

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And for "Schildknappen" like this;

Sry, for completely bad and ahistorical pictures, but I guess you get the idea...

3. Renaming:
Small work, huge immersion boost... Would love you for this
-hre dismounted MAA to Verlorener Haufen/Forlorn-Hope-Kompanie
-Armored sergeants to Kriegsknechte
-mounted sergeants to Panzerreiter

[Kjertesvein]

Reichsritter
Lehensherren
Vasallen/Vogte
Deutschritter
Schildknappen
Verlorener Haufen/Forlorn-Hope-Kompanie
Kriegsknechte
Panzerreiter

I can pronounce these words because my native language is part of the Germanic tree, but I wonder if it's appropriate to demand the lowbrow audience to deal with it. I remember in Divide et Impera, the annoying thing was to be unable to pronounce the name of my units. Like, what is the purpose of having a name for a unit if you yourself can not pronounce it? You end up sounding like GWB.

I understand if there is a categorical word attached to the unit (`Schildknappen Horsemen´), if certain words are anglicized (`Panzer Cavalry´), or if a name is part of popular mindset (Forlorn Hope). It's also ok if it's limited to 1 or 2 unit with simple or short names, but if many units are like that... I don't know. Some people are going to disagree and that's ok, but that's my point of view at least. It's not a huge deal, but i thought I'd mention it.

This may be relevant.

Anyway, +1 For the "Thuringian militia" -suggestion. Cool name.

~Wille

[hessam]

Agreed. German uses a Latinized alphabet and it's still confusing to someone who's not familiar with its rules of pronunciation. Just think of languages (like Arabic or Turkic ones) that have different alphabet and even produce different sounds. I's impossible both to convert them to a Latinized alphabet while retaining their original pronunciation (seriously, I've seen Farsi words in Latin alphabet and if you were to pronounce them they'd sound nothing like the actual word) and to make them understandable for a non-native speaker.

[Kjertesvein]

@Filips Augustus
From a historical point of view, it's not such a dumb idea for most HRE and Italian knights to stay on their mount. They were a lot more mount centric than the English (and to some degree the french) style of fighting. When the lords of Burgundy forced their knights to dismount, in an attempt to imitate the English fighting style, the capital punishment had to be installed. That tells you how popular it was for them to get down from their high horse... I'm not saying this was universal, but it's a general trend in German and Italian areas of a mounted tradition, and that reflects their armour. Knights who fought mounted would also have made their armour ideal for that style of fighting, such as shorter faulds (skirt) or the inside of their thigh (cuisses) remain uncovered. From a gameplay perspective, I understand where you're coming from and I wouldn't mind a dismounted knightly unit every now and then, but that's just me.

@Ltd.
I'm just looking at every single choice of element of armour. The tassets/polyens/arm harness; the general lack of sabatons; the use of shirts of textile or mail cover over plate; men-at-arms half-swording; much coat of plates (DYK, most of mid 14th century English coat of plates were imported from the low counties[1]), etc. I'm just nodding my head, this is HRE. Nicely done.

4 suggestions

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Firstly, silk and patterns in textile

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I would like to see more velvet or silk with extravagant patterns on a few knights here and there to spice it up. I'm not sure how exactly to portray it (I'm color blind) or if it's practical for you, but the_Fawn_Rescuer also did an excellent job with the pattern of the officer's cuirass in his roster.

As a bit of further context.

A few replica

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This site and it's pintrest is absolutely amazing:

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http://www.sartor.cz/44-historical-textiles
http://www.sartor.cz/2249-black-and-...-gryphins.html
http://www.sartor.cz/2292-green-broc...al-beasts.html
http://www.sartor.cz/2397-gdansk-sil...-and-dogs.html
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...093a6e5ef5.jpg
https://no.pinterest.com/sartorbohemia/?redirected=1

Effigy, Florence (mid 14th century Florence)
http://digilib2.gwdg.de/khi/digitall...w=5000&dh=5000

The met museum have a number of extant survivals of silk textile with elaborate textile patterns.

Ratio of high end coverings

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From 16th century surviving examples, we know coat of plates were made by plates riveted on a base layer of hemp. Then over the base layer, a thinner outer protective layer, sometimes decorated. In the Visby grave, some of this outer layer was leather, but in most cases, such as account letters, it's textile. From 1353-60 (Rothwell’s account), we can see a general classification of coat of plates in terms of pricing:
"
- Plain coat of plates with hemp cover would cost you 13s. 4d.
- Better Coat of plates, covered in plain fustian, £16s. 8d.
- The best covered in velvet or other silks with gilded rivets for £2."

With the old £sd. system, the most expensive coat of plates were, 3x or 1.5x more costly, than the basic hemp and fustian coat of plates respectively. So the pricing might provide some suggestion as to the frequency of high-end coat of plates.

Secondly, if you're ever looking for more variation of harness' for the extremities for german territories in the high period, here are some suggestions:

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Overview by Augusto Boer Bront.
Arm harness
Leg harness

And the Italian version, just in case.

Arm harness
Leg harness


Details such as scale or leather would also be interesting to see in small quantity in German territories during the transitional period.

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Scale

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I made a post here with lots of pictures of scale from western and central Europe, mostly from HRE territories. Matt Easton seem to speculate that scale, when it was used, was done to cover joints due to it's flexible nature. It seems to be placed over existing mail as a little bit extra protection, rather than other forms of plate.

Leather

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Boiled leather (Cuir bouilli) pops up ever now and then. In the Tower armouries, it appears as 'black leather rear braces' quite a lot. I've also seen it on knightly effigies in Sicily, also as rerebrace.

"Many of the arm defences were of leather, and an example of a tooled leather defence for the upper right arm of this period survives in the British Museum (figure 8). It came from the Roach Smith collection, and wasfound in London. The decoration, a diaper design of foliage inhabited by birds andmythical two-legged beasts, is very similar to that shown on the Bures brass."

Here is an example of a purchase of relatively numerous leather rerebraces compared to other elements of protection. This wasn't always the norm, but it's worth mentioning. "The indenture for issues to Thomas Snetesham for the fleet in 1337 included325 bacinets (for which there were 262 aventails, as mentioned above under mail), 167 pairs of plates, thirteen aketons of plates, 120 pairs of rerebraces of tooledblack leather and 127 pairs of gauntlets of plate.164 The pairs of plates had variousdifferent coverings: black and green, and white leather, fustian and twill, striped(reye) silk, red taffeta."


Rerebrace of tooled leather, probably English, mid-fourteenth century. British Museum, no. 1856.07-01.1665.

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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...45020fc156.jpg

According to Easton, Master Armourer Chris Dobson apparently reconstructed some convincing cuir bouilli after a lot of experimentation, alas, I've jet to find a picture of it.

Thirdly

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, a foot knight unit with short spears, half swording estoc blades and awlpikes. By armoured men, to fight other armoured men. I understand Attila lack a "crowbar animation" or a purely "2 handed stabbing weapon", so it's perfectly ok that such a unit isn't present in 1212, but yeah... Sigh lol sorry, I just have problem not talking about it, because in all media, steel tipped 5-6 foot 2-handed spears are such an undervalued weapon for knight, jet the evidence for it is overwhelming.

http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/25628
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/25623
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/26714
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/25085
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/26736

Lastly, slashed clourful clothing and cod pieces for landsknechts.

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A must for any sassy late German mercenary infantry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYv4iO9QjCs

EDIT: Here is an actual slashed cloth, mid 15th century:

"Back view of the conjoined hose of the 15th century. The man on the right has slashed undersleeves. Note V-shaped back neckline, 1460s."
French 15th century painter Meister des Jouvenel des Ursins.

[1] "Information about the sourcing of armour in the early period is also very interesting. Though the only previously published details suggested the Low Countries origin of much English armour of the mid-fourteenth century, the details in Fleet’s account (1325–44) confirm it, and show how important Cologne and Maastricht were as armour-making centres at that time. 77% of the bacinets, 96% of the helms, 66% of the kettle hats, 84% of the pairs of plates, 83% of the arm defences, 86% of the gauntlets, 85% of the cuisses and 70% of the greaves were imported from those two centres."

The medieval inventories of the Tower armouries 1320–1410, Roland Thomas Richardson

EDIT: This is what a 360 degree view of a replica of a late 14th century Coat of Plates with silk and gold look like. sexy af https://plus.google.com/112410089144...89144735130011

Saturated medieval colours and sassy rich people with a small army of valets to take care of their every need.

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The following pictures were from a book, purchased by the French King's brother in 1416.
For example these images.

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---

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Liédet. 1468-79



di Bartolo, 1441-42

~Wille

[KLAssurbanipal]

I have no problem with historical shield pattern. It's just a little cosmetic error. Just these sheilds don't have any details - soiling, shades, etc. These are very clean if these were created click on the fill color in Paint. Probably some of you forgot to give the filter on the texture.





This picture shows good where is a problem:




Shields haven't any filter but shields have a correct filter texture - soiling, shades, etc.