Clearing Up Misconceptions about Islam

[basics]

basics,

I would appreciate, to make this discussion easier to follow, if you could quote where X user says Y thing. (In example, where do fardin says all those things)

mishkin,

I asked Fardin why they the Iranians want to wipe Israel off the map and he replied, because they are our enemies. I then asked why they were your enemies, that if a state of war existed between them and you and especially as Israel has not attacked Iran yet Iranian forces have attacked Israel. So, where is the complication in that? It is surely a reasonable question that needs an answer? Fardin states that he will only reply to non-repetitive subjects yet fails to answer why Israel are his enemies asked only once which he failed to do.

[PointOfViewGun]

mishkin,

I asked Fardin why they the Iranians want to wipe Israel off the map and he replied, because they are our enemies. I then asked why they were your enemies, that if a state of war existed between them and you and especially as Israel has not attacked Iran yet Iranian forces have attacked Israel. So, where is the complication in that? It is surely a reasonable question that needs an answer? Fardin states that he will only reply to non-repetitive subjects yet fails to answer why Israel are his enemies asked only once which he failed to do.

You making claims and ignoring to back them up are not things that need a response? You failed to come up with anything to support your claims yet you accuse someone else of that. That is quite hypocritical.

[Fardin]

mishkin,

I asked Fardin why they the Iranians want to wipe Israel off the map and he replied, because they are our enemies. I then asked why they were your enemies, that if a state of war existed between them and you and especially as Israel has not attacked Iran yet Iranian forces have attacked Israel. So, where is the complication in that? It is surely a reasonable question that needs an answer? Fardin states that he will only reply to non-repetitive subjects yet fails to answer why Israel are his enemies asked only once which he failed to do.

Sorry if I responded to you late dear,do not get upset. Read my post again.
I forgot your question.

[basics]

Sorry if I responded to you late dear,do not get upset. Read my post again.
I forgot your question.

Fardin,

Jesus was/is a Jew. Does that make Him your enemy?

[Fardin]

Let's take a break, I want to explain about the biggest and most popular pilgrimage in Islam and the world, Every year millions of Muslims from 60 countries walk(about 100 km but some people walk from the borders of Iraq(about 600km )) to Karbala,Iraq for the mourning of Imam Hussain(our third Imam).
Providing of food and accommodations are all from local people's (and Iranians) donations and people provide resting place and food for pilgrims in their own houses all for free and no government is involved in the reception of the pilgrims, Iranians have the biggest places established for this purpose.
Last year ISIS threatened that will bomb the the roads and when the people heard this news, the number of the pilgrims increased about 15%(2 millions more people went from Iran to Karbala) to prove to the world the Muslims do not fear anything but God.27 millions Muslim(6 millions were Iranian) went to Karbala from every corner of the world last year.
Last year's security was provided by IRGC and many bombers arrested before they try to blow up themselves between the pilgrims.The interesting thing is not even one bombing happened last year.
A few pics from the Arbaeen pilgrimage:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Locals massage the pilgrims feet for free.










































Vatican's representatives in Arbaeen pilgrimage

[Fardin]

Fardin,

Jesus was/is a Jew. Does that make Him your enemy?

Of course not,Jews are not our enemy but the Zionists are.
And Jesus was not a Jew,He is Muslim and he will return with Imam Mahdi.

[DaVinci]

Fardin, well alright, i see your point. It was expected, as proper muslim believer of course you have to go that way in the relations discussed there.

For me but, the fallacy is, the God idea in itself, this is what to me is illogical, not but the invention of the god or gods, that is what i see is logical, as layed out in my post(s).
I even believe you see as well, there is no real proof for a god like that one which is described in the holy books of sort, like we see proofs in sciences, or?

So it all goes back to just "belief" in a god or gods, which is, what i wanted to argue for in my recent post especially.

A strong believer but isn't able to see the obvious, that we are in the frame of nature aka natural laws, their processes and mechanics.
Just as you claim the other version, the non-god believer isn't able to see the obvious, that a god exists who created all and everything in the universe.

Edit1:
I have to admit in the latter case, that i don't really understand how that goes hand in hand with nature sciences and the knowledge about them, but well, after all, many scientists are religious believers as well. I strongly think, that is a case of the temporal society worldviews along history, where of course, we come from a gods-belief and then a god-belief aka indoctrination from childhood on.

Edit2:

One point or kind of task.

Imagine you would be raised in a non-muslim society and culture, and but you would study biology (and semi-way other departments of nature sciences and social sciences), aka there is no indoctrination at hand of a religion from childhood on. Would you come to the same conclusions as you do or did?

[Iskar]

I would like to know what Islam's stance on freedom of religion is, especially the so-called "negative freedom of religion", i.e. the freedom to choose not to adhere to any religion, change it or drop it.

Feel free to differentiate between Sunnis, Shiites (Twelvers and Seveners), Ibadis, Alawites, Alevites, Sufis, etc.

[PointOfViewGun]

I would like to know what Islam's stance on freedom of religion is, especially the so-called "negative freedom of religion", i.e. the freedom to choose not to adhere to any religion, change it or drop it.

Feel free to differentiate between Sunnis, Shiites (Twelvers and Seveners), Ibadis, Alawites, Alevites, Sufis, etc.

Well, Quran explicitly tells that there is no compulsion in religion:

2:256 There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

6:104 There has come to you enlightenment from your Lord. So whoever will see does so for [the benefit of] his soul, and whoever is blind [does harm] against it. And [say], "I am not a guardian over you."

Quran also prescribes no punishment for apostasy in this life. Any Islamic sect that prescribes any worldly punishment for someone who refuses Islam is explicitly defying Quranic verses.

[basics]

Setekh,

Just like in Glasgow where a Muslim was killed because another Muslim regarded him as an apostate. Aparently his brand of Islam wasn't good enough for his murderer, a man who showed no remorse for killing and, at his trial a few others came up from England to support him. What then of Islam that peaceful religion?

[PointOfViewGun]

Setekh,

Just like in Glasgow where a Muslim was killed because another Muslim regarded him as an apostate. Aparently his brand of Islam wasn't good enough for his murderer, a man who showed no remorse for killing and, at his trial a few others came up from England to support him. What then of Islam that peaceful religion?

So, actions of any Muslim is an indication of what their religion teaches them? Does Christianity teach people to molest kids? You see, the kind of logic you use is very problematic. I don't wanna use it.

[chriscase]

So, actions of any Muslim is an indication of what their religion teaches them? Does Christianity teach people to molest kids? You see, the kind of logic you use is very problematic. I don't wanna use it.

I do think it's an apt comparison, and it also underlines the primary concern I hear from various sources about the current state of Islam in the world.

We do not generally hear any direct apologists for the depredations of pedophile Catholic priests - as far as public statements go, the Church itself as well as its defenders in the public sphere all seem to be unanimous in their condemnation of the crimes themselves. Even so, there was a wall of denial and silence and the shell game the Church played with these embarrassing predators, and despite the general disavowal these tacit acts make the Church complicit in the pattern of crimes.

But when it comes to acts of violence - committed supposedly in the name of Islam, mind you - we do seem to have much more of an actual group of public apologists. Now I'm not going to claim to be an expert in the field of public opinion regarding Islam, and of course there is no such thing as a single authority on such a broad subject. I'd expect for there to be a variety of views that comprise something as general as "public opinion regarding Islam". But I do hear - just in the general discourse - apologists who do appear to defend the use of violence in the name of Islam for various purposes - something you really never hear in the case of Catholic pederasty. So you can understand the concern.

I would like to hear from those in the thread who are better informed on the nuances of opinion within the Islamic world whether this is a genuine concern of yours, or would you have us believe it's all made up by anti-Islamic propagandists.

[DaVinci]

So, actions of any Muslim is an indication of what their religion teaches them? Does Christianity teach people to molest kids? You see, the kind of logic you use is very problematic. I don't wanna use it.

I don't see any logic in basics according comment(s).

But contradiction all the way.

Related to that from where he comes along what he comments here and elsewhere, with in particular the core-message of Jesus' mountainprayer-content of 'love your neighbor/next one and even your enemy', he contradicts himself within every bitter comment about muslims and the Islam.


Sethek, btw. imo. it is wrong to think and write religion xy teaches. It is always a person who teaches. And imo., if somebody reads a "holy" book, then he "teaches" himself or better said, he reads written contents, and makes up his imagination out of it, until he speaks to another or more persons about it, and they teach each other or one person (often a pastor or just imam, just a teacher) teaches the "pupils". To teach, it's a verb aka acting, can a book-content in itself act? I would always relate a person to it. Otherwise, it is learning from a book aka learning a religion or studying the contained messages. I know that is possibly semantics or something of that line, but anyway ... .
I could but imagine, that a religious person sees that different, in the sense of that was is written in the holy book are the words of god, and thus he teaches the psalms? That'll it be, i guess. Btw., i as well underwent a religious education in my childhood and early youth, the one of the ev.-lutheran church.

[Himster]

Just like in Glasgow where a Muslim was killed because another Muslim regarded him as an apostate. Aparently his brand of Islam wasn't good enough for his murderer, a man who showed no remorse for killing and, at his trial a few others came up from England to support him. What then of Islam that peaceful religion?

Yeah, Christianity is so much better. Because protestants have never murdered Catholics and vice versa.
Basics isn't lying a sin?

Does Christianity teach people to molest kids?

Yes.
Any action, both good or bad, can be justified by quoting deliberately vague scripture. People (both religious and irreligious) decide their morality on their own and choose justifications later, being religious doesn't help or hinder that, except for the group-think component, but that's a disease that afflicts the irreligious too, just less so (for now anyway).

[basics]

Setekh,

That priests or anyone connected to a so-called religion thinks they can get away with sexual abuse or any other abuse of children then the law should step in immediately as soon as an accusation has been made. There should never be a coverup as Setekh suggests. What I find strange however is that children in the Islamic world are " married " to old men old enough to be their grandfathers and many never having reached their teens and Setekh fails to mention that, and also perhaps he doesn't want to since his prophet indulged himself according to many writers on these threads if that is to be believed.

Nonetheless, all you apologists for this insidious religion do realise that if it becomes the order of the day your sons and daughters will be under sharia law, made to wear the trappings that you see Muslims wearing, have no voice to make any appeal because it won't be the so-called moderate version that will win rather the most severe version, why? Because it is the nutters who are blowing anyone up who will gain the power and one knows from TV and the Net what these guys do. Do you want your daughters to be mutilated by what they call circumcision? Look across Europe at the moment and see what they do to women when the oportunity comes up especially non-Muslim ones.

[Fardin]

I want to address everyone in this post so read it carefully.
Islam doesn't permit any aggression and brutality, Those people who do these crimes are not Muslim because they've violated every Islamic obligatins and laws,No one can conclude from Qur'an that we should kill, we should rape unless they distort Qur'an and this is possible only when you address ingorants and people with religious illiteracy,this word is the basis of terrorism and every crime that is based on a belief: " Ignorance " ,I found out many members of these forums have a really great potential for being a terrorist because prejudgment is a part of ignorance, I've seen many people say "we should wipe off Islam" , "why every terrorism in the world has an Islamic background?" , "Islam must remain out of the civilized world" and so on. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever bothered yourselves to see what your governments have done to the world? I see many people rip themselves off for a terrorist who kills a few persons in Europe and I've seen numerous threads that are opened for these subjects, I looked and waited for some one to open a thread about the massacre of the Yemenis children by SA or the Palestinian children by Israel but very sadly I didn't find one, about four weeks ago I waited for someone to open a thread about the french bomber who killed 90 innocent villagers in Syria but it seems you were blind in seeing that because the people who were killed were Muslims not European or American and the one who killed them was from Europe and wasn't a Muslim.
I'm starting to think that your blood's color differ from the Muslims, I want you to ask a question from your conscience: "Human beings are equal or not?" The answer is clearly a "NO"
Let's assume for a moment that these terrorists are Muslims, Have you ever compared the death toll caused by the Muslims and your governments?
If not then you count muslims and I'll count yours.
We are not here to fight, We are here to discuss and share our knowledge and improve it with the others knowledge but it seems your knowledge has closed your eyes, Don't let your previous thoughts forbid you to see the truth.
Let's be fair from now on...

Fardin, well alright, i see your point. It was expected, as proper muslim believer of course you have to go that way in the relations discussed there.

For me but, the fallacy is, the God idea in itself, this is what to me is illogical, not but the invention of the god or gods, that is what i see is logical, as layed out in my post(s).
I even believe you see as well, there is no real proof for a god like that one which is described in the holy books of sort, like we see proofs in sciences, or?

Imam Ali said: "I don't worship a god who I don't see". I do believe in this sentence, I see him everyday with my eyes,I feel him in every moment of my life, My real eyes are in my heart, That why I said in my first reply to you : You must feel it with your heart .
God is not a physics formula to prove it on the paper, God's place is in the human's heart, You must open your heart's eyes to see him.

So it all goes back to just "belief" in a god or gods, which is, what i wanted to argue for in my recent post especially.

A strong believer but isn't able to see the obvious, that we are in the frame of nature aka natural laws, their processes and mechanics.
Just as you claim the other version, the non-god believer isn't able to see the obvious, that a god exists who created all and everything in the universe.

First I see then I believe, I define myself a sceptical person , I don't accept anything if I don't see a strong proof, you can simply realize this personality of mine in my posts in this thread or the other forums.

Edit1:
I have to admit in the latter case, that i don't really understand how that goes hand in hand with nature sciences and the knowledge about them, but well, after all, many scientists are religious believers as well. I strongly think, that is a case of the temporal society worldviews along history, where of course, we come from a gods-belief and then a god-belief aka indoctrination from childhood on.

Your thought is wrong, let me explain it from Qur'an:
The Quran repeatedly emphasises the importance of seeking knowledge, verifying information, use of logic/reason, evidence, consultation, reflection/thinking, study of biology/creation/archaeology/history/sciences. Some of the many examples are shown below.
The Quran clearly states signs of the truth it promotes exist in the whole universe, thus surely all of it is worthy of study:
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? [41:53]
Say: Travel in the earth and see how He originated the creation, then God creates the latter creation; surely God has power over all things. [29:20]
Many ways of life have passed away before your time. Go, then, about the earth and behold what happened in the end to those who gave the lie to the truth. [3:137]
In the creation of heavens and Earth, and the alternation between night and day, are signs for those with understanding.
Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder over the creation of the heavens and the Earth: “Our Lord you did not create this without purpose...”
[3:190-191]

Promotes logical thinking and reasoning:
And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and Earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty. When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "I do not like those that disappear." So when he saw the moon rising, he said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the misguided!" So when he saw the sun rising, he said: "This is my Lord, this is biggest." But when it disappeared he said: "My people, I am innocent of all that you associate with God." [6:75-79]
“And by God , I will scheme against your statues after you have gone away and given your backs.”
So he broke them into pieces except for the biggest of them, so that they may turn to him.
They said: “Who has done this to our gods? He is surely one of the wicked.”
They said: “We heard a young man mentioning them. He was called Abraham.”
They said: “Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness.”
They said: “Did you do this to our gods Abraham?”
He said: “It was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!”
So they turned and said to themselves: “It is indeed ourselves who have been wicked!”
Then they reverted to their old ideas: “You know that they do not speak!”
He said: “Do you serve besides God that which does not benefit you at all nor harm you?”
“I am fed-up of you and to what you serve besides God! Do you not comprehend?”
[21:57-67]

He cites an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation! He says: "Who can resurrect the bones while they are dust?"
Say, "The One who made them in the first place will resurrect them. He is fully aware of every creation."
[36:78-79]
If there were gods in them (heaven and earth) except for God, then they would have been ruined... [21:22]
God has not taken a son, nor is there with Him any god. If it were so, then every god would have taken what He created and they would have tried to overtake each other. God be glorified against what they describe! [23:91]
Did the news come to you of the person who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while God had given him a kingship? Abraham said: “My Lord is the One who gives life and death,” he said: “I bring life and death.” Abraham said: “God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west.” The one who disbelieved was confounded! And God does not guide the wicked people. [2:258]
In the story of Joseph, he was accused of molesting a female when it was really the other way around, and it was proven with evidence by way of reasoning:
He said: “She is the one who seduced me from myself,” and a witness from her family gave testimony: “If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar.”
“And if his shirt is torn from behind (i.e. as he tried to get away from her), then she is lying, and he is truthful.”
[12:26-27]
As is quite common in The Qur'an, it also gives us examples in this life to reflect upon:

...You sometimes see the earth dry and barren, but no sooner do We send down rain upon it than it begins to stir and swell, putting forth every kind of radiant bloom.
That is because God is the truth, and He gives life to the dead, and He is capable of all things. [22:5-6]
And Abraham said: ""My Lord, show me how you resurrect the dead." He said, "Do you not already acknowledge?" He said, "I do, but to assure my heart. Said He: "Take, then, four birds and teach them to obey thee; then place them separately on every hill [around thee]; then summon them: they will come flying to thee. And know that God is Almighty, Wise. [2:260]

Rejects following of tradition/culture/ancestors blindly:
And if they commit evil acts, they say: “We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it.” Say: “God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?” [7:28]
If they are told, "Follow what God has sent down," they say, "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not reason much and were not guided? The example of those who are unappreciative is like the one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind; they do not reason.
[2:170-171]
And do not follow what you have no knowledge of; surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. [17:36]

Recommends group consultation:
Those who listen to what is said, then follow the best of it; those are the ones God has guided, and are the men of understanding. [39:18]
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs... [3:159]
O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, God will give you ample, and when it is said: Rise up, then rise up. God will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and God is Aware of what you do. [58:11]

And those who have responded to their Lord, and they establish the bond, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give. [42:38]

Promotes thinking/reflection/reasoning:
Surely, the worst creatures in the sight of God are the deaf and dumb who do not reason. [8:22]
And they said: “If we had listened or understood, we would not be among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!” [67:10]
...Relate the stories, perhaps they will think. [7:176]
...It is such that We clarify the revelations to a people who think. [10:24]
With proofs and scriptures. And We sent down to you the Reminder to reveal to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [16:44]
Do they not reflect upon themselves? God did not create the heavens and the Earth and what is between them except by truth and an appointed term. But most of the people are in denial regarding their meeting with their Lord. [30:8]
And He committed in your service all that is in the heavens and in the Earth; all from Him. In that are signs for a people who reflect. [45:13]
...Say: “Are those who know equal to those who do not know?” Only those who possess understanding will remember. [39:9]
“He has misled mountain loads of you: could you not, then, use your reason?” [36:62]
"Do you not then reflect?" [6:50]

Strongly disapproves of conjecture/guesswork, and promotes examination of evidence:
You who believe! If a troublemaker comes to you with a report, verify it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done. [49:6]
They said, "There is nothing but this worldly life; we die and we live and nothing destroys us except the passing of time!" They have no knowledge about this; they only conjecture/guess. [45:24]
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess. [6:116]
...And conjecture/guesswork is no substitute for the truth. [53:28]
...Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. [2:111]
Or have they taken gods besides Him? Say: “Bring your proof. This is a reminder of those with me and a reminder of those before me.” But, most of them do not know the truth, so they turn away. [21:24]

Esteems knowledge, education and learning:
And do not follow what you have no knowledge of; surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. [17:36]
And say: "My Lord increase me in knowledge." [20:114]
"Will they not ponder over the Qur'an?" [4:82]

And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware. [9:122]
And from the people, and the animals, and the livestock, are various colours. As such, only the knowledgeable among God’s servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving. [35:28]
But those of them who are firm in knowledge, as well as the believers, they believe in what was sent down to you and what was sent down before you... [4:162]
Those who are blessed with knowledge will recognize the truth from your Lord, then believe in it, and their hearts will readily accept it. Most assuredly, GOD guides the believers in the right path. [22:54]
In fact, it is a clear revelation in the chests of those who have been given knowledge... [29:49]
...“Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied.” [3:79]

In the early period of Islam and The Qur'an, it is well documented in history that Muslims were the leaders in science/mathematics/agriculture/astronomy/medicine, thus there is a proven example from history that science and Islam were able to work together in a productive manner. It is only recently this can be said to have changed.

Edit2:

One point or kind of task.

Imagine you would be raised in a non-muslim society and culture, and but you would study biology (and semi-way other departments of nature sciences and social sciences), aka there is no indoctrination at hand of a religion from childhood on. Would you come to the same conclusions as you do or did?

It's a really hard question, I know myself so I think if I wasn't born a Muslim maybe I would seek for an opportunity to find answers for my unanswered questions,this is in the human being's nature to seek for knowing more, Many Muslim scholars in Iran think that you had the opportunity to understand but you rejected it and prefered to live with your own rules and perverted lifestyle but I couldn't agree with them in this case, I think you didn't have the opportunity to understand Islam and that's why I'm here. I've asked your question from myself many times before and I've thanked the God countless times for creating me a Muslim specially a Shia and a lover of 12 Imams and gave me the opportunity to find the true way of life.

I would like to know what Islam's stance on freedom of religion is, especially the so-called "negative freedom of religion", i.e. the freedom to choose not to adhere to any religion, change it or drop it.

Feel free to differentiate between Sunnis, Shiites (Twelvers and Seveners), Ibadis, Alawites, Alevites, Sufis, etc.

Some think that in Islam there is no freedom of religion allowed. For example, residents of a Muslim country or under Islamic law are not allowed to practice their own faith. The Qur'an states, in no uncertain terms, that there is no compulsion in religion:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most sure hand-hold, that never breaks. And God is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]

Each to their own way:
“Nor will I serve what you serve,
Nor will you serve what I serve,
To you is your system, and to me is my system.”
[109:4-6]
This is a reminder, so let he who wishes take a path to his Lord. [73:19]

The Qur'an states that God could have made all those on earth believe, thus asks who is man to enforce such a thing if God did not:

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? [10:99]

Again, reminding us not to compel but simply warn by means of The Qur'an, with wisdom and kind words:

We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind by means of The Qur'an who fears My warning. [50:45]

You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind words, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones. [16:125]

Interestingly, all examples in The Qur'an of persecution due to faith are as a threat from non-believers and tyrants against believers [e.g. 11:91, 19:46, 36:18, 26:116, 7:123-124]. Thus it could be argued a trait of an ignorant society is no freedom of religion.

And lastly, a proof beyond doubt, is that The Qur'an itself states anyone compelled or forced to believe or admit to something under duress is invalid with God:

Whoever rejects God after having believed; except for one who is forced while his heart is still content with belief; and has opened his chest to rejection, then they will have a wrath from God and they will have a great retribution. [16:106]
Thus, no enforcement of faith can take place in a society governed by the laws of The Qur'an.


The difference between the branches of Islam and sects is only in toleration, The minor sects don't rule(or have) a country to do something about it so remains only between Shia and Sunni , Shias are more patient according to the history.
The sects like Suffism or Alavism are just for individual issues and they don't have a strong basis to rule a country based on them, These sects were established by some hermits who their only job was praying, they had nothing to do with other people and the public affairs.
The funny thing is I didn't know these minor sects exist and have followers nowadays until I heard it from the members of this forum.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to advocate female circumcision.

See? You are rejecting your own logic.

[chriscase]

Islam doesn't permit any aggression and brutality, Those people who do these crimes are not Muslim because they've violated every Islamic obligatins and laws

Similarly to the discussion I had with Setekh, I think I understand this idea but doesn't it tread terribly close to the No True Scotsman fallacy? When there seem to be significant numbers of self-identified Muslims who are less adamant than you on this point - who will say that violence in the name of Islam is acceptable, even just, and not merely in self defense - it does not seem enough to simply say they are not true Muslims, does it?

No one can conclude from Qur'an that we should kill, we should rape unless they distort Qur'an and this is possible only when you address ingorants and people with religious illiteracy,this word is the basis of terrorism and every crime that is based on a belief: " Ignorance " ... I found out many members of these forums have a really great potential for being a terrorist because prejudgment is a part of ignorance

This is why I avoid holy books. Arguments about what they "really" mean are pointless and - from my perspective - a total waste of time. What matters is the actions a people are willing to take, the laws and interpretation of those laws that a society lives by.

I can't 100% agree with your identification of ignorance as either a sufficient or necessary condition for terrorism. Babies are generally ignorant, does that make them necessarily terrorists? And weren't a number of high profile terrorists like the 9/11 hijackers quite well educated? There may be a relationship but I don't think you've quite winkled it out. Certainly it's not sufficient to accuse TWC members of terrorist inclinations on account of their not being as well informed about your country as they could be.

I've seen many people say "we should wipe off Islam" , "why every terrorism in the world has an Islamic background?" , "Islam must remain out of the civilized world" and so on. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever bothered yourselves to see what your governments have done to the world? I see many people rip themselves off for a terrorist who kills a few persons in Europe and I've seen numerous threads that are opened for these subjects, I looked and waited for some one to open a thread about the massacre of the Yemenis children by SA or the Palestinian children by Israel but very sadly I didn't find one, about four weeks ago I waited for someone to open a thread about the french bomber who killed 90 innocent villagers in Syria but it seems you were blind in seeing that because the people who were killed were Muslims not European or American and the one who killed them was from Europe and wasn't a Muslim.
I'm starting to think that your blood's color differ from the Muslims, I want you to ask a question from your conscience: "Human beings are equal or not?" The answer is clearly a "NO"
Let's assume for a moment that these terrorists are Muslims, Have you ever compared the death toll caused by the Muslims and your governments?
If not then you count muslims and I'll count yours.

This also brings me back to the discussion Setekh and I had. Would you agree with us that the tendency to accept violence in the name of Islam (erroneous as this may be from a strict theological perspective) is more indicative of military and economic hardship these people are under? Is this a case of people bending their ideology to actions they find themselves inclined or forced to take in self defense? I could understand that, although I still wonder about guys like Osama Bin Ladin, who could hardly be seen as ill-educated or destitute. Some of these people are clearly well educated and from privileged backgrounds. Yet the majority of their followers/victims are likely as you describe.

But all this still leaves us with the "what to do" question. Suppose the vast majority of people within the Islamic world who are becoming more accepting of violence in the name of Islam are - as Setekh stated - doing so more because of terrible hardships for which the West is at least partially culpable. How can we turn this around?

[DaVinci]

I want to address everyone in this post so read it carefully.
Islam doesn't permit any aggression and brutality, Those people who do these crimes are not Muslim because they've violated every Islamic obligatins and laws,No one can conclude from Qur'an that we should kill, we should rape unless they distort Qur'an and this is possible only when you address ingorants and people with religious illiteracy,this word is the basis of terrorism and every crime that is based on a belief: " Ignorance " ,I found out many members of these forums have a really great potential for being a terrorist because prejudgment is a part of ignorance, I've seen many people say "we should wipe off Islam" , "why every terrorism in the world has an Islamic background?" , "Islam must remain out of the civilized world" and so on. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever bothered yourselves to see what your governments have done to the world? I see many people rip themselves off for a terrorist who kills a few persons in Europe and I've seen numerous threads that are opened for these subjects, I looked and waited for some one to open a thread about the massacre of the Yemenis children by SA or the Palestinian children by Israel but very sadly I didn't find one, about four weeks ago I waited for someone to open a thread about the french bomber who killed 90 innocent villagers in Syria but it seems you were blind in seeing that because the people who were killed were Muslims not European or American and the one who killed them was from Europe and wasn't a Muslim.
I'm starting to think that your blood's color differ from the Muslims, I want you to ask a question from your conscience: "Human beings are equal or not?" The answer is clearly a "NO"
Let's assume for a moment that these terrorists are Muslims, Have you ever compared the death toll caused by the Muslims and your governments?
If not then you count muslims and I'll count yours.
We are not here to fight, We are here to discuss and share our knowledge and improve it with the others knowledge but it seems your knowledge has closed your eyes, Don't let your previous thoughts forbid you to see the truth.
Let's be fair from now on...



Imam Ali said: "I don't worship a god who I don't see". I do believe in this sentence, I see him everyday with my eyes,I feel him in every moment of my life, My real eyes are in my heart, That why I said in my first reply to you : You must feel it with your heart .
God is not a physics formula to prove it on the paper, God's place is in the human's heart, You must open your heart's eyes to see him.


First I see then I believe, I define myself a sceptical person , I don't accept anything if I don't see a strong proof, you can simply realize this personality of mine in my posts in this thread or the other forums.


Your thought is wrong, let me explain it from Qur'an:
The Quran repeatedly emphasises the importance of seeking knowledge, verifying information, use of logic/reason, evidence, consultation, reflection/thinking, study of biology/creation/archaeology/history/sciences. Some of the many examples are shown below.
The Quran clearly states signs of the truth it promotes exist in the whole universe, thus surely all of it is worthy of study:
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? [41:53]
Say: Travel in the earth and see how He originated the creation, then God creates the latter creation; surely God has power over all things. [29:20]
Many ways of life have passed away before your time. Go, then, about the earth and behold what happened in the end to those who gave the lie to the truth. [3:137]
In the creation of heavens and Earth, and the alternation between night and day, are signs for those with understanding.
Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder over the creation of the heavens and the Earth: “Our Lord you did not create this without purpose...”
[3:190-191]

Promotes logical thinking and reasoning:
And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and Earth, so that he will be of those who have certainty. When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "I do not like those that disappear." So when he saw the moon rising, he said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the misguided!" So when he saw the sun rising, he said: "This is my Lord, this is biggest." But when it disappeared he said: "My people, I am innocent of all that you associate with God." [6:75-79]
“And by God , I will scheme against your statues after you have gone away and given your backs.”
So he broke them into pieces except for the biggest of them, so that they may turn to him.
They said: “Who has done this to our gods? He is surely one of the wicked.”
They said: “We heard a young man mentioning them. He was called Abraham.”
They said: “Bring him before the eyes of the people so that they may be witness.”
They said: “Did you do this to our gods Abraham?”
He said: “It was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!”
So they turned and said to themselves: “It is indeed ourselves who have been wicked!”
Then they reverted to their old ideas: “You know that they do not speak!”
He said: “Do you serve besides God that which does not benefit you at all nor harm you?”
“I am fed-up of you and to what you serve besides God! Do you not comprehend?”
[21:57-67]

He cites an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation! He says: "Who can resurrect the bones while they are dust?"
Say, "The One who made them in the first place will resurrect them. He is fully aware of every creation."
[36:78-79]
If there were gods in them (heaven and earth) except for God, then they would have been ruined... [21:22]
God has not taken a son, nor is there with Him any god. If it were so, then every god would have taken what He created and they would have tried to overtake each other. God be glorified against what they describe! [23:91]
Did the news come to you of the person who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while God had given him a kingship? Abraham said: “My Lord is the One who gives life and death,” he said: “I bring life and death.” Abraham said: “God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west.” The one who disbelieved was confounded! And God does not guide the wicked people. [2:258]
In the story of Joseph, he was accused of molesting a female when it was really the other way around, and it was proven with evidence by way of reasoning:
He said: “She is the one who seduced me from myself,” and a witness from her family gave testimony: “If his shirt was torn from the front, then she is truthful, and he is the liar.”
“And if his shirt is torn from behind (i.e. as he tried to get away from her), then she is lying, and he is truthful.”
[12:26-27]
As is quite common in The Qur'an, it also gives us examples in this life to reflect upon:

...You sometimes see the earth dry and barren, but no sooner do We send down rain upon it than it begins to stir and swell, putting forth every kind of radiant bloom.
That is because God is the truth, and He gives life to the dead, and He is capable of all things. [22:5-6]
And Abraham said: ""My Lord, show me how you resurrect the dead." He said, "Do you not already acknowledge?" He said, "I do, but to assure my heart. Said He: "Take, then, four birds and teach them to obey thee; then place them separately on every hill [around thee]; then summon them: they will come flying to thee. And know that God is Almighty, Wise. [2:260]

Rejects following of tradition/culture/ancestors blindly:
And if they commit evil acts, they say: “We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it.” Say: “God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?” [7:28]
If they are told, "Follow what God has sent down," they say, "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not reason much and were not guided? The example of those who are unappreciative is like the one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind; they do not reason.
[2:170-171]
And do not follow what you have no knowledge of; surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. [17:36]

Recommends group consultation:
Those who listen to what is said, then follow the best of it; those are the ones God has guided, and are the men of understanding. [39:18]
...and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs... [3:159]
O you who believe! when it is said to you, Make room in (your) assemblies, then make ample room, God will give you ample, and when it is said: Rise up, then rise up. God will exalt those of you who believe, and those who are given knowledge, in high degrees; and God is Aware of what you do. [58:11]

And those who have responded to their Lord, and they establish the bond, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give. [42:38]

Promotes thinking/reflection/reasoning:
Surely, the worst creatures in the sight of God are the deaf and dumb who do not reason. [8:22]
And they said: “If we had listened or understood, we would not be among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!” [67:10]
...Relate the stories, perhaps they will think. [7:176]
...It is such that We clarify the revelations to a people who think. [10:24]
With proofs and scriptures. And We sent down to you the Reminder to reveal to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. [16:44]
Do they not reflect upon themselves? God did not create the heavens and the Earth and what is between them except by truth and an appointed term. But most of the people are in denial regarding their meeting with their Lord. [30:8]
And He committed in your service all that is in the heavens and in the Earth; all from Him. In that are signs for a people who reflect. [45:13]
...Say: “Are those who know equal to those who do not know?” Only those who possess understanding will remember. [39:9]
“He has misled mountain loads of you: could you not, then, use your reason?” [36:62]
"Do you not then reflect?" [6:50]

Strongly disapproves of conjecture/guesswork, and promotes examination of evidence:
You who believe! If a troublemaker comes to you with a report, verify it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you have done. [49:6]
They said, "There is nothing but this worldly life; we die and we live and nothing destroys us except the passing of time!" They have no knowledge about this; they only conjecture/guess. [45:24]
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess. [6:116]
...And conjecture/guesswork is no substitute for the truth. [53:28]
...Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful. [2:111]
Or have they taken gods besides Him? Say: “Bring your proof. This is a reminder of those with me and a reminder of those before me.” But, most of them do not know the truth, so they turn away. [21:24]

Esteems knowledge, education and learning:
And do not follow what you have no knowledge of; surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. [17:36]
And say: "My Lord increase me in knowledge." [20:114]
"Will they not ponder over the Qur'an?" [4:82]

And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware. [9:122]
And from the people, and the animals, and the livestock, are various colours. As such, only the knowledgeable among God’s servants reverence Him. God is Noble, Forgiving. [35:28]
But those of them who are firm in knowledge, as well as the believers, they believe in what was sent down to you and what was sent down before you... [4:162]
Those who are blessed with knowledge will recognize the truth from your Lord, then believe in it, and their hearts will readily accept it. Most assuredly, GOD guides the believers in the right path. [22:54]
In fact, it is a clear revelation in the chests of those who have been given knowledge... [29:49]
...“Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied.” [3:79]

In the early period of Islam and The Qur'an, it is well documented in history that Muslims were the leaders in science/mathematics/agriculture/astronomy/medicine, thus there is a proven example from history that science and Islam were able to work together in a productive manner. It is only recently this can be said to have changed.





It's a really hard question, I know myself so I think if I wasn't born a Muslim maybe I would seek for an opportunity to find answers for my unanswered questions,this is in the human being's nature to seek for knowing more, Many Muslim scholars in Iran think that you had the opportunity to understand but you rejected it and prefered to live with your own rules and perverted lifestyle but I couldn't agree with them in this case, I think you didn't have the opportunity to understand Islam and that's why I'm here. I've asked your question from myself many times before and I've thanked the God countless times for creating me a Muslim specially a Shia and a lover of 12 Imams and gave me the opportunity to find the true way of life.




Some think that in Islam there is no freedom of religion allowed. For example, residents of a Muslim country or under Islamic law are not allowed to practice their own faith. The Qur'an states, in no uncertain terms, that there is no compulsion in religion:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most sure hand-hold, that never breaks. And God is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]

Each to their own way:
“Nor will I serve what you serve,
Nor will you serve what I serve,
To you is your system, and to me is my system.”
[109:4-6]
This is a reminder, so let he who wishes take a path to his Lord. [73:19]

The Qur'an states that God could have made all those on earth believe, thus asks who is man to enforce such a thing if God did not:

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? [10:99]

Again, reminding us not to compel but simply warn by means of The Qur'an, with wisdom and kind words:

We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind by means of The Qur'an who fears My warning. [50:45]

You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind words, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones. [16:125]

Interestingly, all examples in The Qur'an of persecution due to faith are as a threat from non-believers and tyrants against believers [e.g. 11:91, 19:46, 36:18, 26:116, 7:123-124]. Thus it could be argued a trait of an ignorant society is no freedom of religion.

And lastly, a proof beyond doubt, is that The Qur'an itself states anyone compelled or forced to believe or admit to something under duress is invalid with God:

Whoever rejects God after having believed; except for one who is forced while his heart is still content with belief; and has opened his chest to rejection, then they will have a wrath from God and they will have a great retribution. [16:106]
Thus, no enforcement of faith can take place in a society governed by the laws of The Qur'an.


The difference between the branches of Islam and sects is only in toleration, The minor sects don't rule(or have) a country to do something about it so remains only between Shia and Sunni , Shias are more patient according to the history.
The sects like Suffism or Alavism are just for individual issues and they don't have a strong basis to rule a country based on them, These sects were established by some hermits who their only job was praying, they had nothing to do with other people and the public affairs.
The funny thing is I didn't know these minor sects exist and have followers nowadays until I heard it from the members of this forum.


See? You are rejecting your own logic.

Thanks for time you take on our core religion discussion, besides the points which are adressed to other posters here.
Let me mention, that my expressed points scratch here only the surface of the aspects, but i try to make some substanctial points. I'm old and have a great wide knowledge aka could go into depth a lot, but i won't because i can't do it here as for several reasons (one important is, not motivated enough for TWC and TWC is definitely rather a frustrating experience in everything that is not around games; and just time, and just not at last, it would fill books. Also, it is not only meant personal to you, but common expressed thoughts in a forum.

Nonetheless, my viewpoint(s) again in short form, because i like you for your passion and also for your idealism and for your trial to keep your kindness in this forum, as far it is possible.

- All what you have citated (blue) which has wisdom in it without doubt, is collected wisdom from over centuries of years of wise old men and women. It's reflection of what was gained as knowledge to the date until it was written.
- The core is belief in a one-god, which formerly was a belief in multiple gods. The messages existed already, some of them were then overworked and brought uptodate in the 7th century, for the local situation.
- It is not a muslim philosophy (or religion) originated by them, but sampled from diverse folks of or living in the orient at the time (shall i really list them up all) and also who migrated there piecefully or also by war (example, Greeks), plus a very active trade and urban life made up a big factor. The Arab rule (or muslim rule) used all that more or less properly, advanced it partially to very good results. The oriental knowledge centers are known aka were famous. Nonetheless, shall we look up the many religions and philosophies and their main protagonaists, which existed and provided the basics for the Abrahamic religions? I would like rather to give this as (long-enduring) homework to you (if you like), if you are not already aware of the historical facts (or at least what is taken as facts by scientists and authors and artists).
- The next core item is just, but i repeat myself, that the people had a strong belief in gods and then a one-god (became the new thing) - this god-belief is implanted so to speak into the genes, because it is culture for thousands of years. The people there were also easy to influence, much much easier than today ... authority and purity and non-education and fear.
- When i speak of science knowledge, then i speak of the standing of science today, not the one of the antique or middleage! The objective scientific analysis makes a belief into a god illogical (as you interpete it, it must be felt in the heart, that's correct, agreed ... but it is your imagination, a product of your brain).
- A religion is but fine, if it makes people still glad and provides law and order, a rule of law. But, this is not necessary anymore today, because example, in secular societies, it goes also, when the state is not a Gods-state.
- Why? Because the ethics are all to find in the society incl. of course laws and rules, which are also fed by the ethics of religions, but that religion-item is private not a states-order or government-task (i couldn't live in a non-secular state). It is in the heart and souls of the people, if the education and/or socialisation doesn't fail (which unfortunately often happens).
- A religion but, has potential for conflict, and to this comes the fact, that believers can say "God wills it" (you know, that from the crusades, as analogy, still valid ... you reject that idiocy, fine, but it's not determining what you think and believe). This is also very bad, because it takes away responsibility, the one of the individuum. This is similar to crazed people who make in their life, and say, something spoke to me, i couldn't do it in another way.
- To this comes also still, that in particular the Islam, but also orthodox christianity has clearly a segregative and indoctrine force, this starts with the roles of men and women, and ends with the many dogmas. As said it is a society manager, that was the plan by the people (the old priests) to bring out rules. What had to be the power to put enough fear to the people? Gods and then just later a one-god (the Almighty, who sees everything ... live properly, then you come into paradise, etc. etc.).
- I could go on and on and on.
- Sorry, brother. But, i respect religious people, when they don't try to missionate me. And, if they aren't extreme or even agressive in their belief which stands also for ideology.
- Those, the agressive ones, are the most bad people, aka practically fascist, and especially people who haven't learned the sense of the human rights, solidarity and empathy, but see themselves (often) religious ... i'm much more religious by the measures of the holy books than many so-called religious people, but i don't sign the God thing, I sign the Nature thing.

This because the nature aka nature sciences and also social sciences plus art-sciences give the answers for the life/about life (and history), besides of course living the life itself (you talked about, what would be ... you would seek for answers ...well i say, the life is the answer, it will bring the answers, it can at least ... a religion is the lazy way in my book).
This learning is a process, which should be furthered as much as it is possible and individually (depends on the person's will and energy/capability), and can form a proper human and optional then a proper society. This is the task!
You say it needs the Islam and a god for this and even more you say He is the one who created all and everything and is Almighty. I say, no ... wrong, an antiquated view which lives on in the humans by culture. This (god) exists only in the human's hope and perception, when they have learned it so by indoctrination from childhood on.

And this goes with the contemporary knowledge, instead with a worldview, that was philosophered circa 1500 years and more ago - this is progress, positive progress if understood right, because it frees up for new horizons.
Or i could also say "living in the Now" (instead in the past) or who goes into details by studying a lot different departments (incl. religions and archeo-/history, of course) and from the life itself with open eyes "experiencing/learning the life and universum" (which is the nature), and the very reason, why religion goes not hand in hand with progressive science. For you it is all god and ready (the easy way), for me it is all nature (which is subject to be learned/researched), what you but call god (the nature).
Also, the good is in the people, as well as is the agression, it's in our genes and then education is the factor/trigger which makes unfolds the capabilites (or just not, if education fails).
The latter, the agression, can be solved with love and peace education alone plus enough freedom and self-unfolding! The agression can also be supported/furthered, of course, by education.
If this education is used by a religion, especially the Abrahmamic ones, then it but will without doubt go with dogmas and opression. Just in the moment, when something is forced ... and believe me, a religious belief is a forced item, if not the person has a free choice. I have but no problems with the contents of religions, which manage certain daily life aka are life-help, and if it is uptodate or old wisdom updated! That is just what education must do, but must also verify or lead the child to self-unfolding and freedom of choice, a full capable person, this by all means btw. independent of the gender! The Islamic world has lots to do, as has the western and overall christian/jewish world, as well as the buddhist and hinduist etc. world. It's up to the people, not religions. The hope can only be: Do it before the world blows up or the earth gets otherwise a not anymore sane platform for the life.

Edit

Allahu akbar ... you said, properly translated it means, god is greater (and reminds the people, that there is something bigger than humans, so to speak). This is indeed very wise. From where comes this originally, probably? From nature is greater.
The people feared and admired for thousands of years the nature. The Abrahamic religions but said then, the earth is given to the humans for usage ... it might have been meant wise in the sense of gardening what is given, but the failure was the emphasis/ego-view on humans alone. It overheight the human above nature, but below god - the result of this approach is what we have today. No conciousness for the nature on earth.
Nature exists and will always exist, also without human and without the earth. We earthlings should have the little piece of nature, which is the planet earth, under guard in the sense of protection/sustainability, as priority.

Edit

People Have The Power (as Patti Smith once wrote, title of one amazing song).

[basics]

Fardin,

Is Jesus a prophet remembering that prophets cannot lie if they are of God? Is Mohammed a prophet who cannot lie? If the answer to both is yes then what Jesus said throughout His earthly life has to be true, why? Because Mohammed says He, Jesus, is a prophet and by saying that He was wrong Mohammed thus contradicts himself and therefore cannot be a prophet of God. Jesus' words must therefore take priority over Mohammed's because Mohammed admits that Jesus was a prophet and could not lie yet by saying He was wrong makes Mohammed himself wrong as he says Jesus is a prophet. All the nice excuses in the world cannot get you out of this dilemma.

[squirel]

Fardin,

Is Jesus a prophet remembering that prophets cannot lie if they are of God? Is Mohammed a prophet who cannot lie? If the answer to both is yes then what Jesus said throughout His earthly life has to be true, why? Because Mohammed says He, Jesus, is a prophet and by saying that He was wrong Mohammed thus contradicts himself and therefore cannot be a prophet of God. Jesus' words must therefore take priority over Mohammed's because Mohammed admits that Jesus was a prophet and could not lie yet by saying He was wrong makes Mohammed himself wrong as he says Jesus is a prophet. All the nice excuses in the world cannot get you out of this dilemma.

Mohammed don't say Jesus was wrong, he says your concept of Jesus and god is wrong.

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