Clearing Up Misconceptions about Islam

[Fardin]

@Fardin. In secular society, final exam standards require schools to teach science topics according to the current, scientifically accepted theories. Is it desirable for a muslim that their children are taught in school the scientifically accepted history of earth and life on it, including
- that the universe is around 13.5 billion years old,
- our planet 4.5 billion years old
- that life originated 3.9 billion years ago,
- that animals first appeard between 500 and 600 million years ago
- that we, homo sapiens, evolved from an ancestor we have in common with living primates
- that we've been around for several hundred thousand years
- that throughout all this time, continental drift has continuously reconfigured the layout of continents and oceans and has caused mountain ranges to rise and erode to nothing
- and that all these processes and many more are still going on and will continue to go on for hundreds of millions of years.

Hello dear Muzier
What makes you think we don't learn these things in Iran?
Iran is always between top ten countries in Physics,Chemistry and Mathematics Olympiads.

This is of great significance to understand the cosmic context in which we live. I personally do not think that any religion that does not embrace the true grandeur of the universe and our place in it can truely set itself apart from the many different cults with primitive creation myths that have graced human (pre) history.

I don't see any contradiction with Islam in these things.Qur'an has some verses that tells us how the world is created and mentions to the big bang itself.You should study more about Islam.

Does killing people until they become muslims, or alternatively until they accept the rule of Islam as degraded dhimmis count as force?

I think we have discussed about these verses earlier and I remember you didn't have something to say at the end.

[sumskilz]

I don't see any contradiction with Islam in these things... You should study more about Islam.

There seems to be a lot of variation in opinion on this:


Source

[Muizer]

Hello dear Muzier
What makes you think we don't learn these things in Iran?
Iran is always between top ten countries in Physics,Chemistry and Mathematics Olympiads.
I don't see any contradiction with Islam in these things.Qur'an has some verses that tells us how the world is created and mentions to big bang itself.

Well, you offered to clear up misconceptions, so I asked Why? I know christianity has been struggling with scientific progress where it seems to conflict with the literal wording of scripture, so I wondered how that was in Islam.

@Sumskilz, thanks for the article.

Though I wonder. Regardless of how long the days lasted in the stories of creation, how would one reconcile the fact that they have an end point with the fact that the processes that shape the earth and life upon it have been ongoing without a break until the present day? But perhaps this is going too far off topic as it is a question that should concern creationists regardless of their religion.

[Infidel144]

Misconception #10: Islam Forces People to Become Muslim
God says, “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error.” Quran 2:256
Although it is a duty on Muslims to convey and share the beautiful message of Islam to others, no one can be compelled to accept Islam. To accept Islam, a person must sincerely and voluntarily believe and obey God, so, by definition, no one can (or should) be forced to accept Islam.
Consider the following:
Indonesia has the largest Muslim population yet no battles were fought to bring Islam there. It has spread there mainly through Trade.
There are around 14 million Arab Coptic Christians that have been living in the heart of Arab World (Arabian region) for generations.
Although fighting oppression and promoting justice are valid reasons for waging jihad, forcing people to accept Islam is not one of them.
Muslims ruled Spain for around 800 years yet never coerced people to convert or Egypt became a Muslim Majority in the 14th Century while it has been under Islamic rule since the 7th Century

Consider the following:
9:5:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush. But if they repent, and maintain the prayer and give the zakat, then let them alone. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful."
9:29
"Fight those who do not have faith in Allah nor [believe] in the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, nor practise the true religion, from among those who were given the Book, until they pay the tribute out of hand, degraded."

In 9:5 Allah tells the believers to kill the polytheists and capture and besiege and ambush them until they accept Islam.

In 9:29 Allah tells the believers to kill the jews and christians until the submit to the rule of muslims, showing that they are degraded by paying the jizya. As an alternative, the people of the Book can become muslim.

Does killing people until they become muslims, or alternatively until they accept the rule of Islam as degraded dhimmis count as force?

[PointOfViewGun]

Consider the following:
9:5:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush. But if they repent, and maintain the prayer and give the zakat, then let them alone. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful."
9:29
"Fight those who do not have faith in Allah nor [believe] in the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden, nor practise the true religion, from among those who were given the Book, until they pay the tribute out of hand, degraded."

In 9:5 Allah tells the believers to kill the polytheists and capture and besiege and ambush them until they accept Islam.

In 9:29 Allah tells the believers to kill the jews and christians until the submit to the rule of muslims, showing that they are degraded by paying the jizya. As an alternative, the people of the Book can become muslim.

Does killing people until they become muslims, or alternatively until they accept the rule of Islam as degraded dhimmis count as force?

Many of these verses were explained to you multiple times before. You keep ignoring those explanations and continue to take them out of context. Why are you asking about them again knowing full well of the failure in using them in the way you do? What's the purpose of lying by omission?

[basics]

You know it is very difficult to see written so many times what Allah has demanded concerning non-Muslims and death is certainly death in any language, so what is there to misunderstand about the words?

[PointOfViewGun]

You know it is very difficult to see written so many times what Allah has demanded concerning non-Muslims and death is certainly death in any language, so what is there to misunderstand about the words?

Many criminal codes do tell people to kill people if we take things out of context as well as some prescribe death penalty or allows killing if its made in self defense. Somehow the same absurdity is not applied to them. Quran doesn't have death penalty, and it talks about killing only in the context of self-defense. Are we to assume humans can not handle simple context?

[bigdaddy1204]

You know it is very difficult to see written so many times what Allah has demanded concerning non-Muslims and death is certainly death in any language, so what is there to misunderstand about the words?

Hi basics, good to see you. I think you would find this very interesting:

In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war. An English translation of that document is presented below.


"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.
Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."

[mishkin]

In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai.

This just means this specific people (Mt. Sinai monks) for some reason received special treatment (Privilege: a right or benefit that is given to some people and not to others).

[Fardin]

Dear Davinci
Your comments are getting more professional and harder so some of the answers won't be in the understanding scope of some of the members , I'll continue our discussion in private and since I couldn't message you(there wasn't any option in your profile) so please send a pv message to me to continue our discussion.

[DaVinci]

Dear Davinci
Your comments are getting more professional and harder so some of the answers won't be in the understanding scope of some of the members , I'll continue our discussion in private and since I couldn't message you(there wasn't any option in your profile) so please send a pv message to me to continue our discussion.

Please try it here. Take all time you need (one can also, if needed, copy posts and work them out in a text editor, and paiste it later).
It's not dependent on what other participators of this thread write or think about my or your comments, just go your own way ... it is all ontopic, as long the discussion goes around the thread title theme, or just, what you as OP-maker, see under its umbrella. The other option would be, to make that kind of discussion a new topic in a new thread, and asking a moderator to copy/paiste certain posts from here to such a new thread.

I don't have or take the time anymore to exchange PMs, sorry - other than that i have still contact with one modder-friend via PM, as exception.

[VALIS]

Orthodox Islam teaches and has historically taught that non-muslims should be subjugated and live as second class citizens as dhimmi's paying the jizyah (a tax), since the early days in Islam non-muslims (kuffar) had to distinguish themselves by wearing special clothes, shaving a part of their hair, riding sideways on a donkey (Muslims should ride horses) and pushing the kuffar to the side of the road.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not initiate the greeting of salaam to a Jew or Christian, and if you meet them in the street, push them to the narrowest part of the road."

Narrated by Muslim, 2167 / Sahih Bukhari Book 25, Number 5389, Narrated AbuHurayrah

And I'll just leave these here

Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (Islam) among the people of the book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Quran 9:29)

The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah." (Muslim 1:33)

To this day the Islamic doctrines of Jihad, Martyrdom and hatred of the kuffar, munafiq's and murtad's are causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people every year.
And let's not even get onto Islam's support for stoning, crucifixion, marrying nine year olds, cutting off hands and feet, etc.

[Infidel144]

We have discussed that the prophet never started a war for conquering and forcing people to Islam.

You have asserted something to that effect (though I don't think it was quite as specific), and I provided evidence countering your claim. To wit, Khaybar, which you claimed was a center of rebellions against muslims. I noted that Imam Ali asked Prophet Muhammad: "...on what issue should I fight with the people?" and Prophet Muhammad replied: "Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah."
That is, the justification Prophet Muhammad gave was to fight them to cause them to convert to Islam.
I had also noted that Prophet Muhammad had sent Khalid bin Walid to the Banu al Harith of Najran with an offer of Conversion or War.
You simply dismissed the historical account as distorted.

Trying to kill the prophet and the muslims is an act of war,am I right?

After Muhammad had been insulting and reviling the gods and attempting to get the Meccans apostasize away from their traditional worship and values?
Then your question goes back to these:
"I am informing all brave Muslims of the world that the author of The Satanic Verses, a text written, edited, and published against Islam, the Prophet of Islam, and the Qur'an, along with all the editors and publishers aware of its contents, are condemned to death. I call on all valiant Muslims wherever they may be in the world to kill them without delay, so that no one will dare insult the sacred beliefs of Muslims henceforth. And whoever is killed in this cause will be a martyr, Allah Willing. Meanwhile if someone has access to the author of the book but is incapable of carrying out the execution, he should inform the people so that [Rushdie] is punished for his actions. Rouhollah al-Mousavi al-Khomeini."
Was Ayatollah Khomeini indulging in an act of war? (I will note here that you chose to answer neither of the questions (for obvious reasons) I asked in connection with Ayatollah Khomeini's Fatwa to believers to kill Rushdie, to wit: do you condemn this fatwa? and: is this fatwa un-islamic?)

Did Imam Mohammad Baqer define an apostate as someone who repudiates Islam and denies the revelation of the Prophet? Did he note that an apostate's repentance will not be accepted, and he must be put to death?
Did Imam Mousa Kazem state that a Muslim who converts to Christianity should be killed?
Did Imam Ja'far Sadeq note that there were at least three instances in which Imam Ali killed individuals who had committed apostasy?
You chose not to answer these questions.
Your overall response was: "Apostates won't be sentenced to death unless they do big crimes against Islam and Islamic society like trying to spread Apostasy in Islamic society."

If death is the punishment for apostasy, and spreading apostasy is a big crime for which death may be imposed, then no attempting to kill prophet Muhammad, who had been insulting the gods and spreading apostasy, is not an act of war.

There is no force to Islam,Let me ask you a question: what is Jazya? Extra tax for non muslims, why Qur'an has stated Jazya when we can simply force infidels to Islam?

I think I already noted the jizya as an alternative to death or conversion. Which was part of my question: does compelling dhimis to pay the jizya, degraded, unless they become muslims, count as force?

18:29 :
And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve...

"... a woman shall not be condemned to death even if she is a Murtadda al-Fitriya [a woman born of Muslim parents], but shall be kept in life imprisonment, and she shall be given beatings at the times of prayer, and she shall be subjected to tightening or scarcity of food. Her repentance shall be accepted. So if she repents, she shall be set free.
Ayatollah Khomeini
For a woman who apostasizes jail her, beat her and starve her. Is this then compulsion or not?

2:190 :
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you, but do not aggress. Allah does not love the aggressors.
2:191 :
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.


Islam allowed the war when we are attacked,we will never start a war.

Yet, as I have shown above, Prophet Muhammad did start wars.

about the 9:5 :
This Ayah was revealed when the pagans broke the peace truce between muslims and themselves.

Surah 9 was revealed after the conquest of Mecca. Much of it about the time of Tabuk (another offensive attack by prophet Muhammad), and the first portion seems to have been the last revealed.

If anyone wants to become a muslim ,He/She must say the Shahadateyn words with personal interest not by force.It's not acceptable if you say those words by force.

9:5
"(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘A man asked myasws
fatherasws about the battles of Amir-ul-Momineenasws, and the questioner was from
those that love usasws. So Abu Ja’farasws said to him: ‘Allahazwj Sent Muhammadsaww
with five swords’ – and heasws mentioned the swords. So heasws said regarding it:
‘And as for the third famous sword, so it was the sword against the Polytheists of the
Arabs. Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says [9:5] then fight the Polytheists
wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in
wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent Meaning express belief and
establish Prayer and pay the Zakat, [9:11] then they are your brethren in the Religion.
So they are those from whom nothing is acceptable except for the killing or entry into Al-Islam,
and their wealth and their offspring as captives – for the captives to be forgiven and ransom accepted’"
Hub-e-Aliasws

9:29
"(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws, in the Hadeeth of the swords which heasws mentioned from hisasws fatherasws in which heasws said: ‘And as for the third famous sword, so it is the sword against the Polytheists of the Arabs. Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says [9:5] then fight the Polytheists wherever you find them’.
Heasws said: ‘And the second sword was against the Protected people (أهل الذمة ). Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says [2:83] and you shall speak to the people good words. This Verse was Revealed regarding the Protected People. Then it was Abrogated by the Words of the Mighty and Majestic [9:29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor do they sanctify what Allah and His Rasool have sanctified, nor do they make the Religion of Truth to be their Religion, out of those who have been Given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of their lowness. So the one who was among them in the House of Al-Islam, nothing was acceptable from him except for the tax or the killing, and there was no Fey (War booty) for them, and their offspring as captive. So when they accepted the tax upon them, their captives were forbidden unto us, and their wealth was forbidden, and it was permissible for us to marry them. And the one from among them was in the house of war, their captives were permissible for us and their wealth, and it was not permissible for us to be married to them, and nothing was acceptable from them except for their entry into the house of Al-Islam or the tax, or the killing’."
op.cit.

If you had any question about Islam or its branches (Shia , Sunni or …) and Islamic politics, We'll answer gladly.

[basics]

Why is it that Jesus said that to love your neighbour as yourself is countermanded by Mohammed who says the opposite?

[PointOfViewGun]

Why is it that Jesus said that to love your neighbour as yourself is countermanded by Mohammed who says the opposite?

Where does Muhammad say to hate your neighbour?

[Fardin]

Please try it here. Take all time you need (one can also, if needed, copy posts and work them out in a text editor, and paiste it later).
It's not dependent on what other participators of this thread write or think about my or your comments, just go your own way ... it is all ontopic, as long the discussion goes around the thread title theme, or just, what you as OP-maker, see under its umbrella. The other option would be, to make that kind of discussion a new topic in a new thread, and asking a moderator to copy/paiste certain posts from here to such a new thread.
I don't have or take the time anymore to exchange PMs, sorry - other than that i have still contact with one modder-friend via PM, as exception

It's not about being on topic or not,some words must be spoken in the private.
And people get better convinced when you talk to them alone, this is my personal experience.
There are 2 kind of guidance in Islam; The first one is for everyone and the second one is personal guidance,you need the second one,the first one has no outcome for you.

My conviction is that humans change as everything in this world changes. What doesn't change are nature-laws (as long universal structures remain as they are). To them belong also the very needs of humans (and all other creatures), while even those (needs) interact with the environment - that's a principle of the evolution.

Good or bad deeds haven't changed;Lying still is a bad deed, oppression still is a bad deed and so on
Islam is still one of the best sources of morals if you don't accept it as a religion.

As believer, you see humans have a holy role and position in this game on earth - i don't believe in that holy item. But i think, as we are kind of at the end of the power-chain on earth, of course except the laws of nature (which but might be influenced soon by humans, example genetic science et al), we have a very high position of responsibility - this the more we as humans know about the laws of nature aka nature sciences, and use this knowledge with daily growing tendency.

Yes,of course. We are the God's best creatures in the earth, Why the God created us different from the animals,we are able to think,we are able to decide but why?
Animals have their instinct and we have the faculty of thought,Why?
You think despite all the differences, we should act like animals again and obey every contemptible instincts of ourselves?
We are here to make a difference, we must be different from the animals,This is our fate.

Imo., it is a fact, that fundamental religion practice and dogma keeps the believers in chains.
Islam, or the Quran, manages the daily life, and thus it is a society manager, a dogmatic organisation, which was designed in the 7th century.
As believer, as said, you are supposed to believe in its infinite validity (which you confirmed above), which quasi negates all options of overwork (further-development)

Why chains? I thought I spoke very clearly about this aspect.Please bring some of the examples that Islam has chained us.

You say, you believe this organisation-structure, layed out with the Quran, goes along with modernisation/progress et al (as said, not only technology is meant) - i doubt that (a lot).

Don't doubt about it dear, It is an absolute fact, Islam doesn't have any red line for development.

Also when you say, Islam (or the Quran) determines you to increase knowledge, because you insist on the dogmatic design: Everything is here then framed (limited or pre-designed) by the laws of the one book and their scholars.
They interprete the book (and write new ones), and to which you as believers seem to obey without questioning the source of their message(s) or the interpretation(s

Of course we can question anything we want, Ayatollah Khamenei has some meetings with people for this reason exactly, Everyone comes and states their criticisms and he answers to them and all of this meeting is with live broadcast to avoid any censorship.Most of the other Ayatollahs have speeches like this.
Some of the sects of Islam have forbidden the studying in the other religions( even Shiism) or foreign sources because they believe their followers beliefs will be shaken but our scholars always encourage us to study more and compare them with our social values but some people compare without proper knowledge about Islam and their ideas might be shaken.

That principle worked in europe the same way (and still does partially within the christian church), but else, the religious dogma is broken. As said, that break started with the Renaissance.

You can not compare Islam with any religion in the earth.As I said before there is no need for something like protestantism in Islam.

Btw., my "belief" goes with science, exlusively (exclusively means here without church/institution whatsoever shaped religion). To science but i count all sciences, not just only nature sciences.
I used to be a kinda spirital-influenced human as i was young (i checked-out diverse religions incl. esoterics). Then learned diverse sciences, which made it impossible to believe still in supranatural power(s).
In european medieval world, that way of life would have been seen as extreme sinful (to say the least), and after torture, those people often ended up on a stake.

This was the part I wanted to speak in private so I'll answer very limited here.
European medieval was a disaster.
Just checking out is not enough, you should study more.

Living properly indeed needs no religion-management anymore. Religion as life manager is a relict. It goes back to the times, as priests of the tribes layed out rules for the survival in this at the time overwhelming (mysterious) nature.
Today, just all the collected knowledge manages life. To this belongs also, of course, a lot ethic "material" taken from religions, but just not exclusively.

Living properly or living with instincts?
Which aspects of Islam is relict?

You have asserted something to that effect (though I don't think it was quite as specific), and I provided evidence countering your claim. To wit, Khaybar, which you claimed was a center of rebellions against muslims. I noted that Imam Ali asked Prophet Muhammad: "...on what issue should I fight with the people?" and Prophet Muhammad replied: "Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah."
That is, the justification Prophet Muhammad gave was to fight them to cause them to convert to Islam.
I had also noted that Prophet Muhammad had sent Khalid bin Walid to the Banu al Harith of Najran with an offer of Conversion or War.
You simply dismissed the historical account as distorted.

when I know the fact that the Tabari history is distorted,Why should I bother myself to explain more.Only expert historians who can distinguish between false and true history can use it.

After Muhammad had been insulting and reviling the gods and attempting to get the Meccans apostasize away from their traditional worship and values?

The prophet was trying to spread Islam and they tryed to kill him and the muslims.A Muslim has to spread Islam even if his life is in danger.

Then your question goes back to these:
"I am informing all brave Muslims of the world that the author of The Satanic Verses, a text written, edited, and published against Islam, the Prophet of Islam, and the Qur'an, along with all the editors and publishers aware of its contents, are condemned to death. I call on all valiant Muslims wherever they may be in the world to kill them without delay, so that no one will dare insult the sacred beliefs of Muslims henceforth. And whoever is killed in this cause will be a martyr, Allah Willing. Meanwhile if someone has access to the author of the book but is incapable of carrying out the execution, he should inform the people so that [Rushdie] is punished for his actions. Rouhollah al-Mousavi al-Khomeini."
Was Ayatollah Khomeini indulging in an act of war? (I will note here that you chose to answer neither of the questions (for obvious reasons) I asked in connection with Ayatollah Khomeini's Fatwa to believers to kill Rushdie, to wit: do you condemn this fatwa? and: is this fatwa un-islamic?)
Did Imam Mohammad Baqer define an apostate as someone who repudiates Islam and denies the revelation of the Prophet? Did he note that an apostate's repentance will not be accepted, and he must be put to death?
Did Imam Mousa Kazem state that a Muslim who converts to Christianity should be killed?
Did Imam Ja'far Sadeq note that there were at least three instances in which Imam Ali killed individuals who had committed apostasy?
You chose not to answer these questions.
Your overall response was: "Apostates won't be sentenced to death unless they do big crimes against Islam and Islamic society like trying to spread Apostasy in Islamic society."

If death is the punishment for apostasy, and spreading apostasy is a big crime for which death may be imposed, then no attempting to kill prophet Muhammad, who had been insulting the gods and spreading apostasy, is not an act of war.

"Apostates won't be sentenced to death unless they do big crimes against Islam and Islamic society like trying to spread Apostasy in Islamic society."

I think I already noted the jizya as an alternative to death or conversion. Which was part of my question: does compelling dhimis to pay the jizya, degraded, unless they become muslims, count as force?

I don't care what you've noted, I didn't accept any of your words so don't repeat them for me.

"... a woman shall not be condemned to death even if she is a Murtadda al-Fitriya [a woman born of Muslim parents], but shall be kept in life imprisonment, and she shall be given beatings at the times of prayer, and she shall be subjected to tightening or scarcity of food. Her repentance shall be accepted. So if she repents, she shall be set free.
Ayatollah Khomeini
For a woman who apostasizes jail her, beat her and starve her. Is this then compulsion or not?

This is not for Ayatollah Khomeini,This fatwa is for Sheykh Toosi and there is no complusion to do this.

Surah 9 was revealed after the conquest of Mecca. Much of it about the time of Tabuk (another offensive attack by prophet Muhammad), and the first portion seems to have been the last revealed.

Seems you know nothing about how the Qur'an was revealed,God didn't sent a whole Surah just in one time.We have discussed about Tabuk so go read it again.

9:5
"(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘A man asked myasws
fatherasws about the battles of Amir-ul-Momineenasws, and the questioner was from
those that love usasws. So Abu Ja’farasws said to him: ‘Allahazwj Sent Muhammadsaww
with five swords’ – and heasws mentioned the swords. So heasws said regarding it:
‘And as for the third famous sword, so it was the sword against the Polytheists of the
Arabs. Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says [9:5] then fight the Polytheists
wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in
wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent Meaning express belief and
establish Prayer and pay the Zakat, [9:11] then they are your brethren in the Religion.
So they are those from whom nothing is acceptable except for the killing or entry into Al-Islam,
and their wealth and their offspring as captives – for the captives to be forgiven and ransom accepted’"
Hub-e-Aliasws

9:29
"(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws, in the Hadeeth of the swords which heasws mentioned from hisasws fatherasws in which heasws said: ‘And as for the third famous sword, so it is the sword against the Polytheists of the Arabs. Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says [9:5] then fight the Polytheists wherever you find them’.
Heasws said: ‘And the second sword was against the Protected people (أهل الذمة ). Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic Says [2:83] and you shall speak to the people good words. This Verse was Revealed regarding the Protected People. Then it was Abrogated by the Words of the Mighty and Majestic [9:29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor do they sanctify what Allah and His Rasool have sanctified, nor do they make the Religion of Truth to be their Religion, out of those who have been Given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of their lowness. So the one who was among them in the House of Al-Islam, nothing was acceptable from him except for the tax or the killing, and there was no Fey (War booty) for them, and their offspring as captive. So when they accepted the tax upon them, their captives were forbidden unto us, and their wealth was forbidden, and it was permissible for us to marry them. And the one from among them was in the house of war, their captives were permissible for us and their wealth, and it was not permissible for us to be married to them, and nothing was acceptable from them except for their entry into the house of Al-Islam or the tax, or the killing’."
op.cit.

There is no force to Islam,Let me ask you a question: what is Jazya? Extra tax for non muslims, why Qur'an has stated Jazya when we can simply force infidels to Islam?
18:29 :
And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve...
2:190 :
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight against you, but do not aggress. Allah does not love the aggressors.
2:191 :
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

Islam allowed the war when we are attacked,we will never start a war.

about the 9:5 :
This Ayah was revealed when the pagans broke the peace truce between muslims and themselves.
If anyone wants to become a muslim ,He/She must say the Shahadateyn words with personal interest not by force.It's not acceptable if you say those words by force.
3:159 :
It was by the mercy of Allah that thou wast lenient with them (O Muhammad), for if thou hadst been stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from round about thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs.

If anyone is interested to read more about imaginations of him,you can read my other thread (Specially the last pages)
I don't have the time and enough patience to continue this discussion anymore because me and my friends have done it multiple times.

[mishkin]

My conclussion: You can be a muslim and a good person, a muslim and an , and there is a excess of hypocrisy in this discussion (questions unanswered, questions with different answer if are answered in private). Cheers.

[basics]

My conclussion: You can be a muslim and a good person, a muslim and an , and there is a excess of hypocrisy in this discussion (questions unanswered, questions with different answer if are answered in private). Cheers.

mishkin,

What is the definition of good? According to the God of the Bible there is none good as all have inherited sin which is brought out in Islam as mercy providing God delivers it. Why does a Muslim need mercy? Oh he knows that he does but where according to Mohammed does it come from considering that if one dies in their sin they cannot get into heaven or paradise because they are still sinners? Jesus' words were to love your enemies as yourself making that the second most important commandment and if He is to come again to judge the world is that not going to be His guideline when He decides who is entering heaven and hell? i ask you that because it is strange that it is Jesus not Mohammed or Allah who has that authority which the Bible tells us that only God can do. So, Jesus must be God.

[PointOfViewGun]

mishkin,

What is the definition of good? According to the God of the Bible there is none good as all have inherited sin which is brought out in Islam as mercy providing God delivers it. Why does a Muslim need mercy? Oh he knows that he does but where according to Mohammed does it come from considering that if one dies in their sin they cannot get into heaven or paradise because they are still sinners? Jesus' words were to love your enemies as yourself making that the second most important commandment and if He is to come again to judge the world is that not going to be His guideline when He decides who is entering heaven and hell? i ask you that because it is strange that it is Jesus not Mohammed or Allah who has that authority which the Bible tells us that only God can do. So, Jesus must be God.

Why do you think people would agree with you the slightest when you don't use an ounce of logic? Or perhaps you don't expect people to agree with you...

Still waiting for you to tell me where Mohammad tells people to hate their neighbours. Is deflecting from supporting a claim you make part of the Bible too?

[basics]

Why do you think people would agree with you the slightest when you don't use an ounce of logic? Or perhaps you don't expect people to agree with you...

Still waiting for you to tell me where Mohammad tells people to hate their neighbours. Is deflecting from supporting a claim you make part of the Bible too?

Setekh,


Oh, I think telling one to kill one's neighbours if they don't agree to convert or for even just living their lives as a non-Muslim as is happening all across the world right now should be sufficient. If they don't hate their neighbours why are they killing them. The Koran distinctly as has been shown encourages one to hate and kill.