Coup attempt in Turkey.

[Meelis13]

The coup was real. Erdogan played the same card like Roosvelt in the Perl Harbor Jap assault.
Last night Greek TV (ERT1) played Turkish Minister of Foreign Afairs intreview.
In that interview he admited that the lists of people Erdogan wanted to take out were ready since 2013! But the regime had no excuse back then to make such extensive arrests.
So...when MIT found out that a coup was on its way, warn Erdogan. Erdogan bribed/blackmailed few of the conspirators (like the Chief of the Turkisg 1st Army) and let the coup begin!
Just like Roosvelt that allowed the assault in Perl Harbor to put USA in the WW and make factory owners richer and re-pay them for his working reforms (new deal) and sucrifised thousands of US citizens for that cause, the same way Erdogan sucrifised few hundred of his followers and few hundred of soldiers plus a friend of his to make his "drama" look more real to achieve his ultimate Ottomanisation of the Turkish society! He (Erdogan) admited that Putin warn MIT about the coup. That lead us to the conclusion that those two guys "separated" the world arround their countries in to commonly acceptable spears of interests. Putin will be the "ultimate" Orthodox protector and Erdogan the ultimate protector of Muslims!
Nottice that Erdogan "sucrifised" also the two pilots that shoot down the russian plane under his former closest friend (former primeminister) orders! Aka...he (Erdogan) ordered his troops to kill rusians and now he wil execute them as traitors to achieve to have a new powerfull "friend".
That reminds me the Ioannes Tzimeskes with the assasination of his closest friend Nikephorus Phokas. When Patriarch refused to name Tzimeskes a co-Emperor , Ioannes agreed to execute his friends that helped his execute Nikephorus Phokas! History always repeats its self!

That is definetly one option and you bring out many points why its possible this coup was real. However, that doesnt explain how army tried to stage coup so.. poorly. It just doesnt make sense- well, unless officers in turkish army are completely incompetent. It feels more like a show, that army expected goverment to roll over and surrender. That kind of optimism doesnt make sense really. I mean even back when my country (Estonia) had its only coup appetempt in 1924 by communists, they didnt have that kind of optimism & buildup of it made sense

[AnthoniusII]

Talking about such serius matters with no evidences is a real crime:
NO HUMMOR has place in cases that human lives are instake! Remember that also the victims of the recent attacks may had the same sence of humor.
Be serius....REAL life is not a game. Human lives and nations existance are NOT jokes we can laugh on them!
Watch this video...At the point 40:56 and further... The Turkish politician admits that the lists of those that should be arrested were ready since 2013!

@Meeelis
The recent evidences indicate that the ploters found out that in August they would be arrested anyway and they felt that they had to act rapidly!
Also REMEMBER that today we know that Erdogan bought (bribed/blackmailed) several of the ploters to change side.
Turkish 1st Army is the strongest in the Turkish Army. Its mission is to invade to Greece and that is why it has 90% of bridges, 40% of total number of tanks and 50% of turkish artilery!!!!
EDIT: Despite the fact that the video is a greek show there are several interviews of turkish people in english!
Watch them all to create a vision of what happens in Turkey today.

[conon394]

The coup was real. Erdogan played the same card like Roosvelt in the Perl Harbor Jap assault.

A coup is a bit different than that a state war that was going to exist anyway. The Japanese diplomats were just a bit slow - they likely had no ideal of the attack was plan it was so audacious that even 3 years before before even the bulk of the IJN would found an absurd ideal. The Hull note was not quite an ultimatum and the delayed response from Japan was not quite a declaration war. But effectively the only suprise was that Japan managed to attack Perl Harbor.

Just like Roosvelt that allowed the assault in Perl Harbor to put USA in the WW

I see you do love a good conspiracy theory - FDR 'allowed' nothing.

1: Those reforms are similar to Putin's ones that actually destroyed Democracy in Russia and gathered all political power in his self (New Tsar). The same way Erdogan coppies Putin's actions and gather's all th epolitical power to him self as the new Sultan.

I do think you are pushing the historical analogies a bit too hard, an analogy can illumination but times and places are different.

2: Russia's suport will be payed back with Turkey's suport in the matter that lead's Orthodox world to a civil war! The new "Tsar" wants to enforce Patriarch of Moscow as the new Ecoumenical Patriarch and Patriarch of Constantinople threatned recently ,Patriarch of Moscow with excommunication and restoration of the Historical Rus Patriarchee in Kiev!

Pretty sure nobody is really caring... un less maybe you are Orthodox. I would certainly like a link on this threat excommunication. Although it would hardly be a shock wave, since relative size (Geographical) and authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch has long been in decline. But while I do see what looks like Krill wanting to make clear that the majority of bishops overall are lean toward the Russian Patriarch but at the high level the attendance at Crete shows the Ecumenical Patriarch retains historic clout. But so what?

Putin will be the "ultimate" Orthodox protector and Erdogan the ultimate protector of Muslims!

Umm on that second part you seem to have forgot ant Iran, Saudi Arabia and in its own way Morocco. Erdogna would joining a crowded field. Also he going to have start breaking ties with Israel if he wants that title.

3: Russia suports Asad that today Erdogan made a step backwards and discuss the possiblity of accepting Asad in the leadership of Syria. In return Russia and Asad will turn against Rojaba Kurdish semi autonomus land , elliminating a thorn in Erdogan's side!

Which from a US perspective is more or less fine at this point since that means Assad, RUssia and Turkey have eliminate ISIS and Al Nursra. Besides Syria is wreak - its no threat to the Israelis anymore (key US concern).

4: NATO still needs Turkey

Why? I thought they Best friends with Putin now?

but the creation of a Kurdistan in un negosiable for varius of reasons.
Erdogan is smart enough to know that diplomacy is a bazzar that when someone asks you something must give something else in return.

Who is asking for a Kurdish state to formed aside from the Kurds and even they are so internally divided I doubt you could find lines to satisfy every group.

USA,EU and NATO must offer Turkey something in return of

Well now you got a snag there. If Syria is stable and back under Assad - the refugee problem likely goes away. After all if Assad wants to rebuild he kinda needs his people back.

Continue "fighting" ISIS

I thought you said Russia and Turkey were going to that anyway to retain Assad. I'm confused now

Accept the fact that a somekind of a Kurdistan will be made

I can't see anyone lobbying for that aside from the Kurds. so I don't see that fact has weight in negotiations with NATO.

Turkey asks to control half of Aegean since 1980!

Wow and Greece has a similar set of claims as well - so.

Turkey DEMANDS that "Norhern Cyprus" will either be an indipended state or merge with "Mother Turkey".

Who is Turkey demanding this from anyway NATO, the EU, Greece, the UN, who?

Turkey DEMANDS Greek lands as part of the old Ottoman Empire like eastern Thrace!

On what grounds the Ottoman Empire is defunct.

In 1987 NATO suported Turkey's claims OVER Greece and ORDERED ALL NATO member to suport in everyway Turkey's invasion in Greece!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got a link because I have no ideal what you are talking about. Anyway I can no evidence for any such order. That was a different era anyway I rather doubt the US would either Greece or Turkey to have gone running into a war during the cold war, and you are I presume talking about the oil drilling indecent right.

NATO will also be pleasant if the 3rd largest Army in world will stay in NATO even if it has to sucrifise Greece or part of Greece or Cyprus (that is not a NATO member).

World? I think you need to work on your math.

Turkey will pass to its citizens the creation of Kurdistan as a victory after taking large parts of Greece and Cyprus that after all are not Muslims and further more are Turkey's most hated enemies!

So Turkey is going to help restore Assad, who is a secular dictator, while claiming to lead the Muslim world. The let Kurdistan be created an ideal antithetical to Turkish policy for decades and one that hundreds of Turkish soldiers have died to prevent. A policy mind you which would outrage Iran and Assad and Iraq since it would only drive separatism in their Kurdish populations (oh and while crush some kuds in syria however). Whatever, but that is not a bargaining chip with NATO since you provided no evidence that NATO is making any such demand. If my neighbor was come over saying I will only cut down my tree if give me your lawn mower, Its kind of a pointless demand if I am not asking him to cut down a or any trees.

THAT IS HOW POLITICS WORK. When you read a history book i advice you to try understand the meaning behind the lines!

I would say if you think FDR allowed the bombing of Perl Harbor, than you spend a little to much time and creativity trying to read between the lines - more often there is just blank space.

Nottice that Erdogan "sucrifised" also the two pilots that shoot down the russian plane under his former closest friend (former primeminister) orders! Aka...he (Erdogan) ordered his troops to kill rusians and now he wil execute them as traitors to achieve to have a new powerfull "friend"

You actually seem to have a point here this why linking is good because supported by a link to Aljazeera you at least one credible point.

[Meelis13]

Still doesnt make sense as there were so basic mistakes that were made that even semi-competent person could've improvised better on the spot. Again, that is just extremely suspicious & i dont have enough info to definetly say its one or the other, so i wont go that far.

[lolIsuck]

He already served his time in jail so he won't go to prison again. And the prison sentence is for one month, sorry for that. Still, Europeans are sending people to prison for critising others as you can see.

This shows that Europe have no freedom of speech. And funny thing is, when Erdoğan asked that a Dutch journalist must be jailed for insulting him, EU media wrote how Erdoğan is a dictator, how there is no freedom of speech at Turkey. Then, when the same thing happens at EU, no one at the media writes about this.

Of course, as i wrote above, EU politicians and journalists are selling them to the highest bidders. Therefore, Turkey must change tactics and start to buy them, just like Russia and China do.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...he-dutch-king/

I presume photoshopping the king's head into an IS execution picture is the problem here, not the fact that he called the king a murderer and thief. The former can be seen as a threat to the head of state, which would probably get you a not so friendly visit from law enforcement in most countries.

Also, small incidents like this does not equate to no freedom of speech. As for the lack of media attention, the decision by the public prosecution service to even start an investigation against the man who shouted " the king" got a whole lot of media attention favouring the man and critisising laws like the lèse-majesté and insulting friendly heads of state, which go against the freedom of speech. The latter is being reviewed as far as I know, the former should too.

[Derpy Hooves]

Europe have no freedom of speech

Already knew that. Good thing I live in the US, which does appreciate Freedom of Speech in its entirety
But yeah, Turkey definitely doesn't have it

[conon394]

@AnthoniusII

NATO will also be pleasant if the 3rd largest Army in world will stay in NATO even if it has to sucrifise Greece or part of Greece or Cyprus (that is not a NATO member).

You really should fix that to say 15th in the world.

But you might also consider that it (Military) is quantity over quality. 60% of the Military is 6 or 12 month conscripts. And since the 6 month term is for University Students and Turkey allows those with ~8,7000 dollars to buy out - the conscription does seem to designed allow the well educated and relatively affluent to sorta skip out. Under the current system the best I tell is the other 40% is Officers, and NCOs.

Nor has Turkey had much with pilot program for raising professional troops.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...sionalism.html



I have would say several posters on this are systemically over valuing the size factor in what they plug that into what NATO views might be.

[Odenat]

@AnthoniusII



You really should fix that to say 15th in the world.

But you might also consider that it (Military) is quantity over quality. 60% of the Military is 6 or 12 month conscripts. And since the 6 month term is for University Students and Turkey allows those with ~8,7000 dollars to buy out - the conscription does seem to designed allow the well educated and relatively affluent to sorta skip out. Under the current system the best I tell is the other 40% is Officers, and NCOs.

Nor has Turkey had much with pilot program for raising professional troops.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...sionalism.html



I have would say several posters on this are systemically over valuing the size factor in what they plug that into what NATO views might be.

American advisors were saying similar things to Greek military junta at 1974. "Go and complete the genocide of Turkish Cypriots, Turkish army is weak, their airforce is old, their navy is weak, their soldiers are conscripts, if everything goes badly, USA will run to your help.". And poor Greeks believed them, look what happened...

[conon394]

You misunderstand I was simply pointing out that one cannot simply compare numbers - And AnthoniusII was over counting. Second whatever their quality good or bad conscripts from a US perspective can be a problem because their countries are unlikely to want to send them abroad.

"Go and complete the genocide of Turkish Cypriots, Turkish army is weak, their airforce is old, their navy is weak, their soldiers are conscripts, if everything goes badly, USA will run to your help."

I rather doubt that but whatever I'm sure it would easy find a rather diametrically different view in Greece or Greek Cyprus. From the US perspective it was the Cold War - having NATO members bickering over Cyprus was rather likely viewed with annoyance after all did it really matter to the US (who was in charge of Cyprus) as long as the situation was stable. The US and the USSR had long since given any pretense of their rhetoric just demanding stability and loyalty in the blocks and poking each in the periphery.

And poor Greeks believed them, look what happened...

A Cluster - F mess. To honest what I see is not some an impressive military showing by anyone, but adroit political analysis by the Turkish government and military. They took first mover advantage (with respect to direct intervention) but did not overplay their hand. I would say, contra your opinion, had Greece acted first I suspect we would simply have the same partition line. The US was not interested in seeing a war break out so the second mover was the going to be pressured to not act (as was the case).

I am not really that interested in rehashing what is a fairly minor episode some 40 years gone. Turkey brought a lot troops and importantly control of the air and sea to beat a fairly disorganized and ill equipped local 'army'. It not really apples to apples, had the Greeks sent significant aid - contested the sea, sent air force units and significant troops I would say your example would then be a more valid measure of Turkey at the time. But that would have a larger war and the US and other key NATO nations had no interest in that.

[Nizam]

Former Swedish PM criticises EU over reaction to coup bid

http://www.trtworld.com/europe/forme...oup-bid-156604

[Exarch]

looks like the turks have fingered the americans as being the culprits of the coup:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/03/wo...ates.html?_r=0

my, my, won't this be interesting times for nato in the future

usually when you try to assassinate a world leader, it usually ends in a declaration of war, or so medieval 2 total war teaches me

[Tureuki]

Blaming US or Israel has been very common among the conspiracy theorists for a very long time. US never had love here.

But this time, I also believe US is involved. All that western reaction, the struggle of further vilifying Turkey in the eyes of common people, the persistence on not handing over the guy. For god's sake the men who are so obviously loyal to him has killed civilians, bombed the parliament and tried to assassinate head of the state and he is making an interview on CNN like nothing has happened. Imagine the same thing happening with Bin Laden after september 11. I'm sure you wouldn't ask politely as Turkey do.

[MWY]

All that western reaction

You mean Obama and Merkel condemning the coup the very same night, siding with Erdogan?

[AnthoniusII]

@AnthoniusII



You really should fix that to say 15th in the world.

But you might also consider that it (Military) is quantity over quality. 60% of the Military is 6 or 12 month conscripts. And since the 6 month term is for University Students and Turkey allows those with ~8,7000 dollars to buy out - the conscription does seem to designed allow the well educated and relatively affluent to sorta skip out. Under the current system the best I tell is the other 40% is Officers, and NCOs.

Nor has Turkey had much with pilot program for raising professional troops.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...sionalism.html



I have would say several posters on this are systemically over valuing the size factor in what they plug that into what NATO views might be.

Realy? CFE lists of 1999 and NATO's lists of 2015 indicades:
That Turkey is in top 5 armies of the world. Do you think that Erdogan would dare to provoke so many opponets if Turkey would not have the needed armed forces.
Also ,despite the fact that armed forces have "only" 500000 men the reserves of Turkey are more than 5 millions! Because all Turks make a military tour of duty from 1 to 2 years (unless it was redused recently).

American advisors were saying similar things to Greek military junta at 1974. "Go and complete the genocide of Turkish Cypriots, Turkish army is weak, their airforce is old, their navy is weak, their soldiers are conscripts, if everything goes badly, USA will run to your help.". And poor Greeks believed them, look what happened...

You are missformed (like we -greeks- were untill recently) about that.
Makarios made a deal with USA to give to bases of observation of middle east. When Dictator Pappadopullos tried to ask USA's permision to bring down Makarios , USA was strict!
"Leave Makarios alone".
But there were three major points that allowed the Turkish intervetion.
1st: Dictator Papadopullos was brought down by Dictator Ioannedes. That idiot man believed that Greece was too important for NATO (just like Erdogan believes the same today) and he could have USA's neutrality in his Cyprus interfear.
2nd: Ioannedes did not see that H.Kissinger was Hellenism greatest enemy. In his book right after his political career wrote: "Exterminate Greeks, hit them in the culture and history. They can not exist without them"...
3rd: British were in secret nagosiations with Turks to ensure that their military base will keep being under their ownership.
Also Ioannedes forgot that Dictators withdrawn the Greek Division, that Greece sent in 1965, in 1968! I will remind you what Rauf Denktaş , wrote in a turkish cypriot newpaper when a morrning saw an entire Division to land in Cyprus without spotting either by NATO or Turkey itsself! "We have lost. Cyprus wont be ours again unless there will be a mirracle".
That mirracle came with Greek Dictatorship that withdrawn the Greek Division from Cyprus.
So it was not USA that allowed Turkey to interfear. Simply USA and NATO saw that even with the new status quo their interests are still continue to exist.

The cyprus/dictatorship/turkey conflict gives us a lesson.
USA/NATO/Russia and many others are looking to suport their interests. If Erdogan will try to cross some lines and put Turkey in opposite side of those powers interests then Turkey might find her self in side a tyfoon that will be hard to get out. Just to remind you how easily interests change.
In 1821 Greeks revolt against Ottoman Empire. The great superpowers of that time France,Russia, Austria,England were against that Greek "revolution".
In 1827 the same super powers elliminated the fleet of both Turks and Egyptians in Navvarinon!
On the opposite side.
In 1919 the superpowers that were victorus from WW1 gave Greece the right to take "back" lands from Ottoman Empire.
In 1921 the same superpowers gave Kemmal guns and gold to get Greeks out of Asia minor.

See how interests work and how easy allies can become fattal enemies?

[Tureuki]

You mean Obama and Merkel condemning the coup the very same night, siding with Erdogan?

That was their only option. They cannot show open support for an illegal action that involves killings. And as far as I know official statements only came after it has been revealed that the Erdogan was alive and the attempt was failing.

Reaction from media and lower tier officials shows the actual honest opinion.

[Col. Tartleton]

I'm pretty sure a US supported coup would have been successful.

If we actually had a Gulenist fifth column in Turkey you don't think we'd have done a better job targeting AKP leadership?

I mean say what you want about the United States, but this isn't our first rodeo.

[PointOfViewGun]

That was their only option. They cannot show open support for an illegal action that involves killings. And as far as I know official statements only came after it has been revealed that the Erdogan was alive and the attempt was failing.

Reaction from media and lower tier officials shows the actual honest opinion.

This idea that they somehow have to go on TV and condemn it the moment rumors were out is ridiculous. Even Turks didn't understand what the hell was going on for sure for hours. They put out a statement not after they saw Erdoğan was alive but after they talked with a representative of the Turkish government. So, go blame them for making an international statement on a situation after getting the proper information.

[Exarch]

I'm pretty sure a US supported coup would have been successful.

like the bay of pigs eh

@topic
the mouthpiece of the american elite have been wringing their hands over the blood of their failed catspaws in turkey:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...gan-scale.html

looks like nato's days in turkey re numbered; after erdog's purges, there wont be a single pro nato turk commander available to subvert turkey's rightful role as Ottomon empire 2.0; wonder what they're gonna do to teach the turks a lesson;

EDIT:
BREAKING NEWS, EUROPEANS BACKSTAB AMERICANS TO SUPPORT ERDOG!!
http://www.dailysabah.com/eu-affairs...e-infiltrators

looks like the prospect of having armies of rapists barreling down their way into europe has gotten the europeans into a more aggreable and pro turkish mood.
plus the americans are in the middle of elections; aint nobody got time to stop the american empire from burning down

[Col. Tartleton]

Bay of Pigs wasn't a coup. It was a retarded invasion.

[Pinarius]

Seems like the new wave of nationalism is encouraging people to act like this:

Man Beaten In Turkey For Refusing To Hold Turkish flag