infantry charges

[hlidskjalf]

has anyone figured out how to best utilize them? i've been playing around in custom battles and i just cannot seem to coax an infantry unit into actually charging into an enemy unit. what invariably happens is a moment of hesitation 10 yards away, often eating a facefull of javelins, and then 5 or 6 men slowly creep toward and engage and get surrounded.

if anyone's found a way to better utilize infantry charges, please do let me know!

[Sar1n]

Make sure that guard mode is off, unit is facing the target, isn't too far and has exhausted its missiles. I pulled off some good charges using that.

[QuintusSertorius]

The M2TW engine was not designed with javelin-using units in mind, is the crux of the problem. When we were using the "prec" attribute, units would often freeze in mid-throw and just stand there, and the AI would often not use it's missiles. Now we've done away with that, there's a "stutter" when a unit checks if it has missiles before charging.

[romanius24]

I usually just have the men spring up to the target and not actually charge at it.
The advantage of a 'charge' is the speed rather than extra damage done by sprinting soldiers.Never actually seen them do any damage even with successful charges.

[Sar1n]

I usually just have the men spring up to the target and not actually charge at it.
The advantage of a 'charge' is the speed rather than extra damage done by sprinting soldiers.Never actually seen them do any damage even with successful charges.

Very few infantry units have significant charge bonus. Many celtic swordsmen, some falxmen and such, and that's about it. Charging with other infantry units won't do much.

[Rad]

I now march my javelin infantry to a certain position and wait for the enemy. When they arrive, they receive a nice voley or two of javelins. When they expend the ammo, I order a charge. All that stuff reminds me of 19th century warfare, but it's much better than the previous mess.

[Cookiegod]

You don't have to use up your ammunition before charging.
If they still have ammunition, press and hold ALT whilte right clicking. You will notice the mouse Icon will change to the sword.

Charges work the same for both infantry and cavalry. There shouldn't be too much disorder and there has to be enough distance.
If there's too little distance, the charge fails. sometimes only the first rank attacks and the rest stays behind, only to slowly crouch forward later. Which is really annoying. In that case, if it's a flanking attack and there's an opportunity for that, call the attack off and the unit back, and then attack.
The more disorder there is in the ranks before the charge the more distance you should have (so they can regroup while running) or give them time for that.

I too do usually not use that many javelins.
What really annoys me in this game is that javelins, slingers and Archers do practically no damage to the enemy in this mod.

EDIT: @Romanius: You do it wrong. There's a charge bonus, which is hefty and can be looked up in the unit. It's the second value I think. You don't have that bonus if you run in. Also, if you let them run in, the enemy has time to react if he's attacked from behind, or even have time for the first blow, if they attack from the front. If you charge, you have the first blow, unless when heading for a spearwall like that of a Phalanx.

[QuintusSertorius]

You don't have to use up your ammunition before charging.
If they still have ammunition, press and hold ALT whilte right clicking. You will notice the mouse Icon will change to the sword.

Doesn't work. If they have ammunition left, they halt about 10m from the target unit, switch from javelin to melee weapon, then stroll in the remaining distance.

Charges work the same for both infantry and cavalry.

I'm afraid they don't. Cavalry charges work fine. Infantry charges do not.

I too do usually not use that many javelins.
What really annoys me in this game is that javelins, slingers and Archers do practically no damage to the enemy in this mod.

Missiles work just fine against the targets they're supposed to - unarmoured and/or light infantry. Particularly from the rear or unshielded side.

Of course you're going to waste ammunition if you're trying to kill heavy infantry with arrows. Get some javelineers behind them, though, and they have much more impact. Course that requires the javelineers to get behind them, and be close enough for cavalry to drive them off.

[cmlax999]

I too do usually not use that many javelins.
What really annoys me in this game is that javelins, slingers and Archers do practically no damage to the enemy in this mod.

.

Really, I find the damage to be about right re missiles. The damage can be pretty significant in certain situations, and on unarmored troops. And pila / Spanish iron javelins, forget about it. I think there's a morale effect too.

[Barnabas]

So will it be not possible to charge before the javelins are finished?

[Rad]

Alt attack works fine. It switches them to the secondary weapon - the melee weapon.
I don't use it much because it would be a shame to waste all those javelins

[Dooz]

Alt attack works fine. It switches them to the secondary weapon - the melee weapon.

Yes, but

Doesn't work. If they have ammunition left, they halt about 10m from the target unit, switch from javelin to melee weapon, then stroll in the remaining distance.

[QuintusSertorius]

Just been doing some testing of other changes, and noticed something regarding distance. If they have ammo left, they will always halt about 10m away to switch weapons. However, if you charge from far away, they will then often charge as a group once they've "switched weapons". However, if you started the charge from nearby, then only the first line charges and the rest dither behind.

I also noticed that when charging a cavalry unit, they stayed in formation when executing the charge.

[Dooz]

Just been doing some testing of other changes, and noticed something regarding distance. If they have ammo left, they will always halt about 10m away to switch weapons. However, if you charge from far away, they will then often charge as a group once they've "switched weapons". However, if you started the charge from nearby, then only the first line charges and the rest dither behind.

I also noticed that when charging a cavalry unit, they stayed in formation when executing the charge.

Oh, that's interesting. Now when you say charge, does it necessarily mean double clicking? Because probably in vanilla but definitely in some other mods, you can single click from some distance away, and they'll walk towards the enemy up to a certain appropriate point then automatically run and charge at them, which is pretty great. But I feel like I've noticed that doesn't really happen here, they just kind of end up either walking all the way towards contact, or start the run so late that they're right up at the enemy or they've already made contact themselves, and just generally this tactic doesn't seem to work. I'm guessing it has something to do with configurable charge distances or something, but I'd love if there could be any way to make it so that this would be a viable option. It's of course just better than double clicking from far away and having them run all that distance, tiring themselves out before they get to the target, and helps cut down on some of the micromanaging of manually walking them up a certain distance then double clicking and all that. I'm pretty sure the same goes for horses, I feel like I remember them just walking up too close to charge with this as well.

[Genghis Skahn]

I've also gotten more successful charges from a sufficient distance...Plus I always used Alt-click for any unit which has missiles for a charge. It's just more reliable for getting infantry or cavalry with missiles to charge.

[Pooploop]

QuintusSertorius, javelins and arrows really do inflict greater damage from the flanks and back? I'm not questioning the devs but the MTW2 engine itself. There's really a modifier for extra damage under certain conditions with missile fire?

[Sint]

There's really a modifier for extra damage under certain conditions with missile fire?

If you hit a unit from behind their shield will do nothing and I think the right flank is also more vulnerable to missle units.So no there is no extra modifier but just no shield modifier when hit from a certain direction.

[QuintusSertorius]

QuintusSertorius, javelins and arrows really do inflict greater damage from the flanks and back? I'm not questioning the devs but the MTW2 engine itself. There's really a modifier for extra damage under certain conditions with missile fire?

This:

If you hit a unit from behind their shield will do nothing and I think the right flank is also more vulnerable to missle units.So no there is no extra modifier but just no shield modifier when hit from a certain direction.

That's why defense is balanced the way it is, with shields having such a big impact for infantry.

[Barnabas]

Two units of parthian horse archers emptied their ammunition from very close range to the backs of a phalangitai killing 4! There is a difference between not very effective and useless. In my parthian campaign I realize how useless most of the eastern units (all skirmishing war traditions) are. It is true that they may not compete in melee to heavy western tradition (maybe greek/roman to be more precise) but mobility, keeping distance meant something in war. Missile units should be able to disrupt enemy formations and if they menage to surround a unit and start raining death on them the unit should scarcely hold ground, in most of the battles I play I scatter enemy skirmishers and missile units, surround the enemy formations, make sure they are engaged in melee to a unit and empty all ammo of all units into them and then watch them rout my units one by one. I try not to recruit too many catas or other heavy cavalry because it simply isn't historical.

The game in its current state is something like recruit heavy units and win. If you feel guilty about it start reducing the number of heavy units and add army diversity so you still win but end up feeling better.

Suggestion: Make missile units kill at least 10 units from directly from the front (that's 1 person among 10 really not too many considering the size of the units) and let a missile unit kill at least 1/3 emptying their ammo on the back of a unit, make it 1/2 if the unit is engaged. Make missiles have an effect on morale of the troops (if possible by engine).When a unit is surrounded alone getting shot at from all sides that unit should be DONE (with VERY rare exceptions). You guys keep saying the job of the skirmishers are to kill enemy skirmishers, why? Because your men are butchered if they get surrounded and since you can't equip and train everyone you conscript whoever you can and make those poor folks make it harder for the enemy to surround you.

[romanius24]

Horse archers play like they are from a different mod. They dont make much sense with how battles currently work.
Currently battles end super fast with morale being so low and HAs dont really have a place in those types of battles.