Small Orthodox corner

[enoch]

God is a necromancer?

[basics]

God is a necromancer?

enoch,

I hope you don't really mean that?

[Gromovnik]

So we need to beg Jesus not to torture us, because of his wrath. This stuff is like being held captive in Buffalo Bill's basement.

[enoch]

enoch,

I hope you don't really mean that?

Necromancer
noun
a person who uses witchcraft or sorcery, especially to bring the dead back to life or to foretell the future by communicating with them

John (11:1–45)

[basics]

enoch,

Jesus is God so why would He need to use witchcraft or sorcery to do anything?

[Gromovnik]

enoch,

Jesus is God so why would He need to use witchcraft or sorcery to do anything?

Exactly. Why all the cheap tricks?

[basics]

Exactly. Why all the cheap tricks?

Gromovnik,

What cheap tricks? Why not ask Him when on that day you have to answer to Him?

[Gromovnik]

Well, I can't ask him, so I'm asking you. Things like turning water into wine is amateur hour stuff.

[basics]

Well, I can't ask him, so I'm asking you. Things like turning water into wine is amateur hour stuff.

Gromovnik,

I don't need to ask Him as I believe what I can read about Him as well as take joy in the experiences I have had with Him. Put in simple terms just for you, how do you know your mother is your mother? To start with there is a written evidence for that and for seconds all the experiences you have had with her in your life. Just so with Jesus Christ and me.

[enoch]

Do you think you meet Jesus for Judgment when you die according to Christian theology basics?

Because Fail.

[basics]

Do you think you meet Jesus for Judgment when you die according to Christian theology basics?
Because Fail.

enoch,

Of course for His people the church have to be first in judgement.

[AnthoniusII]

From a TV series and episode was filmed in Athos. The monk's words are among the fondamental teachings if Christianity.

[basics]

Athanlusill,

The Bible is the only source of teaching outside of what the Holy Spirit does inside the minds of God's elect, those born again of the Spirit of God. So, when Jesus says, " Call no man father except your Father in heaven..." why do certain religions insist on calling their priests and monks father? 1 Peter 2;5-9 tells us that all born again believers are priests with Jesus being the Head of that priesthood. The only visible difference is seen in the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to any believer inasmuch that some are given evangelism, others teaching, others tongues, others interpretation of tongues, others prophecy and of course other with the ability to interpret them. But, the overall actions are telling the Gospel with good works such as helping and serving those that do not know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour for in that Gospel is God's power to save. That portion is totally a work of God.

[Sir Adrian]

That's not true. The Bible is not the only source of teaching. Saint Paul taught in Thessaloniki for 20 years, yet all we have in the bible is a few letters from him. Do we just discard all of that because it is not in the bible? Of course not.

[basics]

Sir Adrian,

What is said of Paul that overtakes what he has had put in the Bible? All the important aspects of the Gospel has been inserted into God's word which is accepted as the finished word of God to us unless of course you can add to the Gospel. John tells us that there were many things written of Jesus, more things than we have in the Bible but they obviously are not as important as what we have. So, if the biggest published and selling Bible of all time and all books, the KJV, is not the word of God, the power of God to save, just as it is, then what pray tell me is?

[Sir Adrian]

Firstly I'm disappointment that you did not catch the BS. Paul taught for 18 months in Corinth not 20 years in Thessaly.

Secondly we've had this discussion before. The Bible is not a Quran, it did not fall from heaven ready made. It is a large number of books from different genres and with different styles that was compiled by the Orthodox church, it was not dictated by God as is, in a period when Christianity was breaking apart into a myriad of sects and wrong-thinking cults. The role of the Bible is to be a basis around which the teachings of the church can be organized but it is not the sole perfect authority. It's not perfect, it never was.

What you're saying is like claiming that the only part of a car is the body. Like the body of a car, the bible is part of a greater whole without which the car does not work but like the body without all the other parts you don't really have anything.

[basics]

Sir Adrian,

No sir, what I am saying is that the Bible is the inspired writings of men inspired by the Holy Ghost just as if God had written it Himself. When Jesus Christ said, " Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that cometh from the mouth of God," where was that word? It was the old Covenant given to Moses to put into print. And, when Jesus Christ said, " Not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law until all be fulfilled," what does that say about graven images and icons or relics? The New Testament is a compilation of things seen and heard of by the disciples who spent all their time with Jesus. The things He did and the things He said being recorded are the words of our God and Creator compiled into the greatest book ever written and you say that they were only men. Yes, but men totally inspired by the words and actions of Jesus Christ which we either believe or not as seems to be in your case.

[Cookiegod]

So, when Jesus says, " Call no man father except your Father in heaven..." why do certain religions insist on calling their priests and monks father? 1 Peter 2;5-9 tells us that all born again believers are priests with Jesus being the Head of that priesthood.

Oh the irony.

The Jesus quote is from Matthew 23:9 and a good example why you should not be a priest. Because what you just did was to rip out the quote and misrepresent it out of context.
The full quote is this:

8But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

And what it refers to (quite ironically, in this context) are that you should not trust those who preach one thing and do another. It does not mean that you can't call anyone father, instructor, or rabbi.

He's very specific as to whom he's referring to and also as to the why:

The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [...] 4They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, 7the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ‘Rabbi’ by which they are addressed.

Most orthodox monks live an ascetic life style and do not have these banquets. They hold themselves to an even stricter standard than others, and moreover, monks rarely go out and preach. I don't know any rich priests either. Anyone choosing this career does not choose it out of greed.

So unlike you, who has to venture here in a thread so clearly not made for you, they do not force their wisdom on others.

Moreover Jesus with regards to the advice given by the rabbis etc. says this:

3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

What Jesus tells you about spiritual leaders here is that you should listen to them with a critical mind.

But you on the other hand go the exact other route and say that their wisdom is to be discarded and it is yours that we should trust.

You directly speak against Jesus.

Your cognitive dissonance becomes even greater since your claim ('You should have no spiritual leaders aside Jesus') is directly contradicted by your recognition of the apostles, whom you do seem to recognise, as evidenced by your quotation of Peter. By your own reckoning their claims should be discarded.

Finally, if you were in any doubt as to what Jesus meant in the part you quoted, you can check out Luke 11 37:54, where he describes the exact same event, but without the quote.

So no, the quote is not about not calling anyone father, but to be vary of false priests, which given what you just did you're quite frankly you're guilty of.


Taking things out of context and taking things to a completely unwarranted extreme. Those sins are things you do again and again and again.

[basics]

Cookiegod,

What I wrote came from the mouth of Jesus Christ, part of an instruction not to believe false teachers. Where is that out of context? So, pray tell me where I do one thing after saying another?

The one last thing Jesus said to the disciples was to go out into the world and preach the Gospel. Where does it say they have to lock themselves away and not preach the Gospel? Concerning the thread where is it written that I am not allowed to share my views in it? So, is it my wisdom that is really at stake here or is it a poor defence of not practising what God has decreed?

So where in my posting anywhere have I spoken against the words of Jesus Christ? Where have I said that one should have no Spiritual leaders? What these men wrote is what they observed and heard Jesus Christ say and so when Jesus said, " Heaven and earth will pass away but My words will never pass away," these words are what the disciples recorded just as if Jesus Himself had done so. Therefore when Jesus says, " Call no man your father upon the earth, for one is your Father, which is in heaven," He didn't mean it? Jesus Christ is God and these words are His not mine so if I am sinning by quoting them I stand guilty as charged.

[Sir Adrian]

Sir Adrian,

No sir, what I am saying is that the Bible is the inspired writings of men inspired by the Holy Ghost just as if God had written it Himself.

Except it's not because even if it is inspired the the Holy Ghost, that inspiration is filtered through the understanding of man, which is flawed.

When Jesus Christ said, " Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that cometh from the mouth of God," where was that word? It was the old Covenant given to Moses to put into print. And, when Jesus Christ said, " Not one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law until all be fulfilled," what does that say about graven images and icons or relics?

So you're agreeing with me that the bible alone is not the only source of learning.

The New Testament is a compilation of things seen and heard of by the disciples who spent all their time with Jesus. The things He did and the things He said being recorded are the words of our God and Creator compiled into the greatest book ever written and you say that they were only men. Yes, but men totally inspired by the words and actions of Jesus Christ which we either believe or not as seems to be in your case.

Firstly, icons are not graven images. I've explained them to you twice but you don't seem to understand how they're used so let's use an analogy. When you're looking at a photo of a loved one that passed, do you think of the paper the picture is made out of and do you make an idol of that photo? Of course not. You're thinking of the person in the photo. Same with icons. They're the ancient and medieval equivalent of photographs of loved ones.

Secondly, it's not just the word of God. The new testament contains the account of Jesus as witnessed and remembered by apostles over 40 years later. It also contains the deeds of the apostles. The apostles were just men, holy men, but men. They are not God, they are not perfect. The old testament is even worse in that regard because it contains the word of God, the history of the jews, the secular laws of the jews (which atheists like Akar always love to quote), the laws required of levite priests and many many other things.

This is leaving aside the fact that the idea of the new testament dates back to the council of Nicaea and the idea of a bible only dates to 600-700 AD. That's like you compiling a book about William Wallace.


PS: the bread alone quote is about fasting and ceaseless prayer. The word of God comes from your heart as you progressively start doing His will.