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Thread: Small Orthodox corner

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    You see, Basics? This is what I was refering to in that other thread, about Aramaic speakers.
    Gromovnik,

    Please explain for my dull brain?

    Sir Adrian,

    Being born again of the Spirit of God is a once only act to an unbeliever becoming a believer. It is an act of God whereupon an unbeliever is brought to a point of conviction in turn meaning a broken and contrite heart upon which God regenerates his or her heart and seals it with the imputation of Jesus' faith and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They literally become a new creation in Christ Jesus. That's what is written. What you described was a kind of salvation by works, good works which don't save anyone. Good works is a result of being born again not the forerunner to it as James so eloquently writes.

    enoch,

    You see lots of things but I'm afraid not the things of God.

  2. #102
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Errm no. Believing is not sufficient. Otherwise I can believe and murder millions and still go to heaven. What you said is a cop-out, basics. And deep down inside you know it.
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post

    enoch,

    You see lots of things but I'm afraid not the things of God.
    Awww, a compliment. I see deep too. Worth all the more.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Errm no. Believing is not sufficient. Otherwise I can believe and murder millions and still go to heaven. What you said is a cop-out, basics. And deep down inside you know it.
    Sir Adrian,

    Quote, " [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2 ; 8-9. Note, good works come after salvation, why? Because one cannot work to get salvation as explained. So, in effect you are boasting that your good works will save you which quite evidently is not what is written nor which I experienced.

  5. #105
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    I can play the quoting game as well


    18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    Or how about this, straight from Jesus Himself

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    Claiming to believe in God is insufficient by itself. It's empty boasting. Claiming salvation during this life-time is a sin. The only path is doing the will of God, which requires both works and faith and it is a lifelong struggle that does not end until death. Just like a man can always rise to the light of God so too can he always fall from it.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; May 30, 2021 at 05:47 PM.
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  6. #106
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Sir Adrian,

    Your first quotes are from the Book of James and if you read it closely you will see that primarily he is writing about believers and how they should behave now that they are saved. You know it's the misinterpretation of James that led many to want his book removed from Scripture because like you they thought he was advocating works for salvation but not so. On the death of Jesus, James being the eldest brother took over the mantle of being the leader at Jerusalem whilst retaining his identity as a strict Jew under the Law. It was only after Paul went there to confront him and Peter that Jesus appeared in vision to James and he was thus converted.

    Jesus said that a man must be born again of the Spirit of God to enter heaven so all those who are not born again cannot enter and that as Revelation tells us means all the religiosity in the world comes under that bracket. Once a person is saved there is nothing in the heavens or the earth that can sweep them from God's hands. So, what you're advocating and wrongly so is that man can fall from grace once he is born again which makes the action of Christ Jesus upon that cross a farce. Therefore when Jesus says depart from Me for I knew ye not who was that to? It was to the religious who claimed to do many things in His name yet He never knew them as being one of His.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    To say that justification is by faith apart from works isn't the same as saying faith can exist apart from works. Faith is necessarily accompanied by obedience and sanctification, so that whoever claims to have faith but has no works probably has no faith at all. That's what James is alluding to when he says that faith without works is dead, i.e. it's not a true, saving faith. He's not saying that justification is by faith + works, but that justification is by faith alone, the fruit of which is works.

    "I wish the reader to understand that as often as we mention Faith alone in this question, we are not thinking of a dead faith, which worketh not by love, but holding faith to be the only cause of justification. (Galatians 5:6; Romans 3:22.) It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone: just as it is the heat alone of the sun which warms the earth, and yet in the sun it is not alone, because it is constantly conjoined with light." - John Calvin
    “Faith is a divine work in us which changes us and makes us to be born anew of God [John 1:12–13]. It kills the old ‘Adam’ and makes us altogether different people, in heart and spirit and mind and all powers; and it brings with it the Holy Spirit. O, it is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, this faith. It is impossible for it not to be doing good works incessantly. It does not ask whether good works are to be done, but before the question is asked, it has already done them, and is constantly doing them. Whoever does not do such works, however, is an unbeliever, who gropes and looks around for faith and good works, but knows neither what faith is nor what good works are. Yet such a person talks and talks, with many words, about faith and good works. Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that the believer would stake life itself on it a thousand times. This knowledge of and confidence in God’s grace makes people glad and bold and happy in dealing with God and with all creatures. And this is the work which the Holy Spirit performs in faith. Because of it, without compulsion, a person is ready and glad to do good to everyone, to serve everyone, to suffer everything, out of love and praise to God, who has shown this grace. Thus, it is impossible to separate works from faith, quite as impossible as to separate heat and light from fire.” - Martin Luther
    See also: What does it mean that good works are the result of salvation?
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Jesus also said the only true church would be with Peter, and all evidence there points to the Orthodox Byzantine Church.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Jesus also said the only true church would be with Peter, and all evidence there points to the Orthodox Byzantine Church.
    enoch,

    Where did Jesus say this?

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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Are you trolling me or do you really not know about the Primacy of Peter?

  11. #111
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    The primacy of Peter is a lie invented by the popes during the little schism of the 800s
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The primacy of Peter is a lie invented by the popes during the little schism of the 800s
    Matthew was written under a hundred years after Christ, Irenaeus and so many others promoted the primacy as really this debate starts with the power of bishops. Regardless the primacy being “invented” in later centuries is silly messaging, it is not even discussed by academics and theologians of note as a serious argument. Lol

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    enoch,

    When Jesus asked them Who the people thought He was the answer was a prophet and when He asked the disciples Who they thought He was Peter responded with, " You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus said a blessing on Peter because what Peter said could only have been given him by God. In other words the Holy Ghost had opened Peter's eyes to see Whom Jesus was. It is not Peter who is important here, rather what he said, for it is what he said that is the core to salvation. In fact it was that poor man who was to deny Him three times when accused of being one of His followers. If Peter was to Head any church why was it not at the original, Jerusalem? James the brother of Jesus assumed that task and he didn't believe at that time. The disciples accepted that because James was Jesus' natural heir. Indeed what was natural for all of them changed dramatically at Pentecost and yet James still was not given to believe and still he retained the leadership. So whatever the disciples nurtured after Pentecost James still held sway until faced by Paul and then his vision of Jesus whereupon he was converted. During all that time there never was a Church of Peter.

    It is worth noting that in all Scripture there is never a church of anything. Any church was always at somewhere never of. Why is that? Well if we are to believe that Jesus Christ is building His church then it would be of Him and not the district or area where it was. And so. there never was or is a church of Rome, of Scotland or England in Scriptural terms. The connection of Peter with Rome doesn't exist because there is not one shred of evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. Supposing he had been he would have found in that church two Bishops put in place by Paul as he did in all his organising of the churches he went to. It puts paid to the notion that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. I often wonder what that grand old man would have thought of all the pomp and ceremony had he been around to actually see it. Indeed if memory serves me correct did Peter at Jerusalem not say that he didn't want to spend his life serving tables, rather that he wanted to get out into the world to preach the Gospel? Why then would he want to sit on a golden throne in one place even outside Jerusalem? We know he didn't because it was agreed with Paul that Peter would concentrate on the Jews no matter where and Paul the Gentiles.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    enoch,

    When Jesus asked them Who the people thought He was the answer was a prophet and when He asked the disciples Who they thought He was Peter responded with, " You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus said a blessing on Peter because what Peter said could only have been given him by God. In other words the Holy Ghost had opened Peter's eyes to see Whom Jesus was. It is not Peter who is important here, rather what he said, for it is what he said that is the core to salvation. In fact it was that poor man who was to deny Him three times when accused of being one of His followers. If Peter was to Head any church why was it not at the original, Jerusalem? James the brother of Jesus assumed that task and he didn't believe at that time. The disciples accepted that because James was Jesus' natural heir. Indeed what was natural for all of them changed dramatically at Pentecost and yet James still was not given to believe and still he retained the leadership. So whatever the disciples nurtured after Pentecost James still held sway until faced by Paul and then his vision of Jesus whereupon he was converted. During all that time there never was a Church of Peter.

    It is worth noting that in all Scripture there is never a church of anything. Any church was always at somewhere never of. Why is that? Well if we are to believe that Jesus Christ is building His church then it would be of Him and not the district or area where it was. And so. there never was or is a church of Rome, of Scotland or England in Scriptural terms. The connection of Peter with Rome doesn't exist because there is not one shred of evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. Supposing he had been he would have found in that church two Bishops put in place by Paul as he did in all his organising of the churches he went to. It puts paid to the notion that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. I often wonder what that grand old man would have thought of all the pomp and ceremony had he been around to actually see it. Indeed if memory serves me correct did Peter at Jerusalem not say that he didn't want to spend his life serving tables, rather that he wanted to get out into the world to preach the Gospel? Why then would he want to sit on a golden throne in one place even outside Jerusalem? We know he didn't because it was agreed with Paul that Peter would concentrate on the Jews no matter where and Paul the Gentiles.
    If we are arguing early gospels as truth than Jesus said it ain’t the time for Gentiles and Paul was a rogue preacher. Do agree however that Jesus would be horrified by the NT existing. He was the Logos. Not some book.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    enoch,

    So, when Jesus revealed Himself to Saul on the Damascus road to convert him we find that what Saul, now known as Paul, preached was exactly the same as the other disciples apart from the circumcision question which Paul had to correct them on. Peter at that time or up until that time was quite happy eating and conversing with Gentiles and yet he had never met Paul at that point. Paul had to go up to Jerusalem to get this question sorted out and he did.

    Now concerning the time of the Gentiles as you put it, what were the last words to the disciples as a command from Jesus? " Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel...." All the world means everyone Jew and Gentile and so that must have been you being wrong again. Let's face it the early saints up until Abraham were not Jews so what were they if not Gentiles? Abraham became a Jew in the flesh by him being circumcised as with all his family and yet it was said that he would be a father of many nations these nations not being circumcised. So, in effect it was because the Jews were chosen to carry the Oracles of God in which was the Gospel of Jesus Christ both Paul and all the other disciples went to the Jews first and then the Gentiles which Paul did. Therefore how was he a rogue preacher?

  16. #116
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Matthew was written under a hundred years after Christ, Irenaeus and so many others promoted the primacy as really this debate starts with the power of bishops. Regardless the primacy being “invented” in later centuries is silly messaging, it is not even discussed by academics and theologians of note as a serious argument. Lol
    Except Matthew does not promote any form of primacy whatsoever. The church has one head and one head only, Jesus Christ, everybody who is part of the church is equal simply because every single priest ever ordained is a direct successor of the apostles present at Pentecost and every single Christian ever baptized is a direct successor of the people present at Pentecost. There is no primacy because everyone is a successor of Peter through the grace of God. That is what the rock quote means. Christianity is not some corporation where the CEO gets to dictate the course for everyone else. Christianity is a communion.

    Sadly the west has lost sight of this key aspect of the faith due to the political machinations and worldly pursuits of the bishops of Rome.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; June 07, 2021 at 10:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    I have great news basics, Ascended Jesus has appeared to thousands upon thousands of people over the years. Should we listen to all of them as Gospel? LEL

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I have great news basics, Ascended Jesus has appeared to thousands upon thousands of people over the years. Should we listen to all of them as Gospel? LEL
    enoch,

    Well, if they preach that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and in Whom and only Whom they can be saved from God's wrath and so whatever they had to tell you would be of interest.

  19. #119

    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    I thought Jesus and God were One?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Small Orthodox corner

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    I thought Jesus and God were One?
    Gromivnik,

    They are! Father, Son and Holy Ghost the Triune Godhead.

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